Discussion on Greek political, financial issues + new elections

[Kyriakos]

You seem to expect a proper journalist should somehow not question a politician on his policies?

*Maybe* he could, but he clearly means the journalist in this specific video

[Stavroforos]

Guys, there's no point in arguing whether the journalist conducted herself properly, regardless of asking proper questions, since it's pointless and difficult to prove and beyond that can't be proven to others who share similar attitudes and have done so for years.

[Kyriakos]

Well, yes, although the vid was posted to show Varouphakis' good speaking/sanity-intelligence qualities Not interested in the negatives myself..

[alhoon]

Varoufakis didn't have any problem with that actually, he was trying to explain and she was interrupting him before he could finnish with inacurate remarks.

While that's true, the questions were valid while his answers were not satisfactory. Sure, the journalist should have shown more patience for him to finish, but he's also talking too long to make his point. He should be short in his speech, we're not his students in an academic lecture. His annoying pompous tone, where he makes everything too colorful grates on my nerves.
I think they only 20 seconds I could listen to him without getting annoyed were when insulted Daiselbloom. And that's not because I agree with his views, but just for the hilarious shock in the face of Daiselbloom. Yes, Baroufakis has balls but since he's a minister keen to insult guests I would say he shouldn't expect better from journalists.

[Alastor]

I think they only 20 seconds I could listen to him without getting annoyed were when insulted Daiselbloom. And that's not because I agree with his views, but just for the hilarious shock in the face of Daiselbloom. Yes, Baroufakis has balls but since he's a minister keen to insult guests I would say he shouldn't expect better from journalists.

And when was that? Because I don't remember him insulting Uselessbum. I really hope you don't mean their common press conference.

[Timoleon of Korinthos]

So precisely absent a Euro should Germany have done to get out of the "Sick Man of Europe" corner it was in in the 90s? It lowered labor costs, overhauled the welfare system and made itsself overall more attractive for investment again. In any case there would have been Germany readjusting herself downwards in costs and other trade barriers to fix the lethargy of the 90s.

What is hindering France and Italy to do the same thing Germany did? They are all within the Eurozone so it's not like germany can do something the others are banned from doing.

In theory, nothing is preventing them from doing the exact same thing. In practice, if they are to compete in a beggar-thy-neighbour contest against Germany, they will have to implement such extreme wage reduction to make up for the lost ground in unit labour cost (and capital accumulation by waning industries) in the last decade and a half that it will be extremely unpopular. Besides, there can only be one winner in this type of game, so if either of them were to come out on top, then Germany would simply take their place, but from the perspective of Eurozone as a system instability wouldn't have been adressed. The only way to do that is by introducing some type of mechanism or automatic stabilisers that will recycle current account surpluses within the Eurozone on a large scale, but this is politically unacceptable because there is no grassroots federalist sentiment strong enough to overcome national affiliations. So instead of enforcing harsh measures upon their populace in a race towards sinicisation, France and Italy will at some point simply opt for reverting back to their respective national currencies, let inflation eat their debt away and a floating exchange rate take care of the current account balances.

[Kyriakos]

And when was that? Because I don't remember him insulting Uselessbum. I really hope you don't mean their common press conference.

+1 for utterly 'rhetorical question'

[alhoon]

And when was that? Because I don't remember him insulting Uselessbum. I really hope you don't mean their common press conference.

I do mean that and I consider telling the leader of the finance ministers of Europe that the Troika committee, which have been talking with them for years, is a rottenly constructed committee an insult, because more or less you call him a pawn and an idiot. Yes, the Austerity program didn't work and SYRIZA doesn't plan to talk with the Troika but with the organizations behind the troika directly. There are less insulting ways to say that.

But still, I would high-five Varoufakis when he said that, despite the fact that it was insulting to Daiseblum. Daiseblum's expression of "ehh... I think I don't have anything to earn here, the days the Greek ministers were considering me their superior are over" was priceless.

[Kyriakos]

^Good riddance to that useless creep

[Alastor]

I do mean that and I consider telling the leader of the finance ministers of Europe that the Troika committee, which have been talking with them for years, is a rottenly constructed committee an insult, because more or less you call him a pawn and an idiot. Yes, the Austerity program didn't work and SYRIZA doesn't plan to talk with the Troika but with the organizations behind the troika directly. There are less insulting ways to say that.

Why, isn't it a rottently constructed committee? But even if there are better ways of saying the truth, more diplomatic if you wish, why was it an insult to Dijsselbloem? Is he that troika? No, he is the eurogroup head. Varoufakis didn't say he doesn't want to negotiate with the eurogroup, in fact he said the opposite, its the troika he doesn't want to negotiate with, so why exactly was Dijsselbloem insulted?

[Mayer]

In theory, nothing is preventing them from doing the exact same thing. In practice, if they are to compete in a beggar-thy-neighbour contest against Germany, they will have to implement such extreme wage reduction to make up for the lost ground in unit labour cost (and capital accumulation by waning industries) in the last decade and a half that it will be extremely unpopular. Besides, there can only be one winner in this type of game, so if either of them were to come out on top, then Germany would simply take their place, but from the perspective of Eurozone as a system instability wouldn't have been adressed. The only way to do that is by introducing some type of mechanism or automatic stabilisers that will recycle current account surpluses within the Eurozone on a large scale, but this is politically unacceptable because there is no grassroots federalist sentiment strong enough to overcome national affiliations. So instead of enforcing harsh measures upon their populace in a race towards sinicisation, France and Italy will at some point simply opt for reverting back to their respective national currencies, let inflation eat their debt away and a floating exchange rate take care of the current account balances.

Good post, you bring it straight to the point, i like that.
I also consider a temporary reduction of the eurozone to be the best option atm.

[neoptolemos]

You seem to expect a proper journalist should somehow not question a politician on his policies?

Not at all as I have stated and you seem to pass by.

While that's true, the questions were valid while his answers were not satisfactory. Sure, the journalist should have shown more patience for him to finish, but he's also talking too long to make his point. He should be short in his speech, we're not his students in an academic lecture. His annoying pompous tone, where he makes everything too colorful grates on my nerves.
I think they only 20 seconds I could listen to him without getting annoyed were when insulted Daiselbloom. And that's not because I agree with his views, but just for the hilarious shock in the face of Daiselbloom. Yes, Baroufakis has balls but since he's a minister keen to insult guests I would say he shouldn't expect better from journalists.

If she wasn't interrupting him then he would have sounded more coherent actually.When you ask the proper and difficult questions you should at least let him finish his argument. Asking several times about Germany wasn't helping at all towards this.
As for Dijeselbleum , Varoufakis wasn't insulting him actually. He was referring to troika and how this government is not going to negotiate with some low grade officials with no democratic check. We are a sovereign country yet not a corporation.

[TASS07]

I'll reply later to the "Germany profited at the cost of everybody else through some obvious scheme"-complex later. Obviously that needs some longer argumentation, for which I don't have time right now. But:

Here a few voices about Greece and austerity

Noble winner Stiglitz -Germany's the problem, not Greece
Noble winner Krugman - End Greece nightmare
Economists urges: Cancel the debt
40 Australian economists urge debt forgiveness for Greece
Radio interview with prof. Steve Keen about Varoufakis, Greece and the EU in general

So? Posting a few links without comment or atleast an attempt to sort them into the debate and put them in position concerning what has been said here is nothing but bad debating.

what did they know? We have members here who are eager to disprove them because they have the academic credentials to do so with eloquent arguments like
"It's Greece fault- Blame the Greeks- Greeks are crooks lazy etc."

That being said I don't argue that Greeks are not to be blamed but the crisis is internationaly driven and it is absolutely obvious that the austerity made things worse.The only positive thing out of this is that Greece get rid of the rotten ruling elite for the first time after the German occupation of 40s.

That is bad debating again, aiming solemly to discredit an opinion you won't make the effort to argue with. Using the third person makes it little more but disrespectful. Using catch phrases that have hardly been uttered here to discredit a side is even more hypocrite when what the argue against is happy to denounce them for their nationality or political stance. So as this is a debate that is open to all sorts of different people from all over whe world, let us resort to arguments please? I was under the impression that such was the aim of this forum.

Amen.
Greek Economy Minister Georgios Stathakis said it would be better to link the country's debt repayments to its economic growth rate as it needs a feasible solution to bring its sovereign debt under control.Why not a new London's agreement - on Greek debts?

My little reader's digest,

The Guardian -Jeffrey Sachs

Aside throwing another link in uncommented and linking it to that 1953 treaty again (I've argued before why that is a bad comparison, I won't need to repeat it): The idea of linking debt repayment to growth isn't bad or unfounded and something I can get behind as an unrealistic approach. It needs to be ensured though that achieving growth is still desirable for politicians. The way I'd understand it though is not a haircut but putting certain portions of the debt or their servicing on ice.

Guys, there's no point in arguing whether the journalist conducted herself properly, regardless of asking proper questions, since it's pointless and difficult to prove and beyond that can't be proven to others who share similar attitudes and have done so for years.

See above.

[Ludicus]

Aside throwing another link in uncommented and linking it to that 1953 treaty

Original link, full article: The Guardian: Let Greece profit from German history

Some Germans today insist that a debt is a debt, and that Greece must repay in full. They should know better from their own history, starting with Keynes’s unsuccessful plea to lower Germany’s reparations burden. They should recall the relief that Germany was granted through the Marshall plan, and the 1953 London agreement on German debts...As with Germany in 1953, the real issue is Greece’s need for debt relief, not whether it is deserved

--------------

TASS07

(I've argued before why that is a bad comparison, I won't need to repeat it):

Magister dixit? . No, its a fair comparison. Read above.

TASS07

So? Posting a few links without comment

Neptolemos will certainly do that, but I think he was annoyed with the tyranny of Greece over Germany. ( hint: Krugman's blog)

------
From the news, without comments,
Stop Germany bashing, EU parliament chief warns Tsipras

Schulz told Germany`s Welt am Sonntag newspaper that he had passed on the advice at talks last week with Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras...I emphatically recommended to him to verbally disarm. ..Tsipras is well advised to end his attacks on Angela Merkel.

[TASS07]

Magister dixit? . No, its a fair comparison.

------
From the news, without comments,
Stop Germany bashing, EU parliament chief warns Tsipras

As I've said before: the difference lies in the type of debt. Greece is in debt due to its own debt-taking an decades of overspending. The German debt in question above roots in the treaty of Versaille, which has been sufficiently established as unfair among historians.

Oh and do not get picky on me. There is a difference between quoting specific parts of a what someone else said and just linking there.

Edit: Forgot to mention but that verbally disarming would benefit cooperation (which one way or the other is what everybody wants) goes without saying.
Edit2: I forgot (again) to admit that this would easily apply to all parties. There's enough politicians and so-called journalists (Bild *cough* *cough*) here in Germany too for example that add little but nonsense and agressive rethoric to the whole affair.

[Ludicus]

The German debt in question above roots in the treaty of Versaille, which has been sufficiently established as unfair among historians

Hmm, "unfair" is a highly subjective valuation-- it failed to curtail Germany's resurgence,after the devastation in Europe at the end of the WW1.

Greece is in debt due to its own debt-taking an decades of overspending

What you failed to mention is that Greece is in debt due in part to German banks taking advantage of the Greek demand for cheap financing.

Forgot to mention but that verbally disarming would benefit cooperation

Germany or Tsipras? Well, Tsipras said, explicitly,

...Germany, and in particular the hard-working German workers, have nothing to fear from a SYRIZA victory. The opposite holds. Our task is not to confront our partners. It is not to secure larger loans or, equivalently, the right to higher deficits. Our target is, rather, the country's stabilization, balanced budgets and, of course, the end of the grand squeeze of the weaker Greek taxpayers in the context of a loan agreement that is simply unenforceable. We are committed to end 'extend and pretend' logic not against German citizens but with a view to the mutual advantages for all Europeans

Tsipras says he wants, sic "a viable,fair and mutually beneficial way out of the debt crisis". Indeed, why is he so" aggressive" with Germany?

[neoptolemos]

That is bad debating again, aiming solemly to discredit an opinion you won't make the effort to argue with. Using the third person makes it little more but disrespectful. Using catch phrases that have hardly been uttered here to discredit a side is even more hypocrite when what the argue against is happy to denounce them for their nationality or political stance. So as this is a debate that is open to all sorts of different people from all over whe world, let us resort to arguments please? I was under the impression that such was the aim of this forum.

Bad debating is to consider yourself more acredited in analysing the crisis and ask for measures while discredit, ignore or belittle the analysis and proposals of nobel laureates in economics.It's a vague remark as it is a universal truth that the expert knows more than a non-expert in the field of his expertise.Unfortunatelly it is something that has been happening almost constantly in these forums. If you feel affected by it well that's not my fault, I wasn't adressing you specifically and it has nothing to do with the irrelevant statements of yours about nationality or political stance.But please be my guest and feel free to point exactly where I did mention or implied somrthing like that.

On an unrelated note the people in Greece who have lived the pathologies of the system and the consequences of the crisis had a say in the recent elections and gave a clear message for a change.It is the first time that a Greek government is actually doing what was voted for which is a huge progress compared with the previous bend overs.

Another voice pointing towards debt burden relief:

Alexis Tsipras will be adding Barack Obama's name to the growing list of people advocating an end to austerity as a solution for Greece's problems.

"‘You cannot keep on squeezing countries that are in the midst of depression," he told CNNs Fareed Zakaria. "At some point there needs to be a growth plan."
While he noted that there had been serious problems in Greece that needed to be addressed for the country to become competitive, he said that from the US's experience, "The best way to reduce fiscal deficits and restore fiscal soundness is to grow."
Obama said that he hoped that Greece would remain in the Eurozone and said that for that to happen compromises would have to be made 'on all sides.'

http://www.thetoc.gr/eng/people/arti...more-austerity

[Diocle]

In some Italian newspapaer some evil mind posted the weird idea that the actual winner of the Greek elections has been Vladimir Putin!

Is there something true in this suspect about a strict perverted relation between Zar Putin and the new Byzantine ruler?

[Stavroforos]

In some Italian newspapaer some evil mind posted the weird idea that the actual winner of the Greek elections has been Vladimir Putin!

Is there something true in this suspect about a strict perverted relation between Zar Putin and the new Byzantine ruler?

Greece's left and right are both Russophiles. The left because they've been standing up to America, the West, Capitalism, and because they were Soviet, and there's a willing blindness to the fact that Russia is a capitalist nationalist nation, and the right because of historical links, Orthodoxy, and even here I'd argue because they stood up to the West. Modern Greek Russophilia is almost entirely misplaced, yet Russia still looms in the minds of many as a great power, and I believe (some other more knowledgeable posters can help out) that Tsipras has had some noted sympathies with Russia and Moscow.

[Emperor Arcturus Mengsk]

Greece's left and right are both Russophiles. The left because they've been standing up to America, the West, Capitalism, and because they were Soviet, and there's a willing blindness to the fact that Russia is a capitalist nationalist nation, and the right because of historical links, Orthodoxy, and even here I'd argue because they stood up to the West. Modern Greek Russophilia is almost entirely misplaced, yet Russia still looms in the minds of many as a great power, and I believe (some other more knowledgeable posters can help out) that Tsipras has had some noted sympathies with Russia and Moscow.

Many of what you say are true, however imagine the scenario of Americanophilia. It could even lead us being targets for extremist attacks from Islamists. I don't know if you understand what I mean.