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Thread: Discussion on Greek political, financial issues + new elections

  1. #1
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Discussion on Greek political, financial issues + new elections

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30623421

    Not enough Greek MPs voted for president of democracy, so we will go for snap elections in less than a month. The opposition leftwing party SYRIZA leads the polls but it's not sure they will find the necessary votes to win; most probably they will need to find others to make a coalition and nothing can be taken for granted since they may not find the allies they will need to form a government. The "memorandum"-supporting parties are trailing in the polls.

    Elections at this time, that may be followed by another round of elections, will put a halt to progress. Spending will raise etc. This has already affected our stock market and I believe that fears of a SYRIZA victory would affect stock markets of Europe too.
    Now, if SYRIZA finally wins after 1 or 2 rounds of elections, I believe they won't do anything drastically different from the previous parties but even deviation from the path would cost us dearly. And there's always the possibility that they will do something stupid (like default) and damn Greece's and to an extend EU's economy.


    EDIT: ELECTION RESULTS
    SYRIZA won, but not with a clear majority. They'll most probably form a coalition government with Independent Greeks, a right-wing (to far right) party of conservative Eurosceptics.

    EDIT 2: After months of failed negotiations, a referendum was called to accept or deny the deal suggested by the Troika at 25th of June. "NO" vote won with 62%

    EDIT 3: About a week after the Greferendum, Greece and EU agree on tough economic measures in order to start negotiations for a 3rd bailout.

    EDIT 4: SYRIZA calls snap elections again.

    EDIT 5: ELECTION RESULTS (mk2)
    SYRIZA won again, with about as much percentage as in January. They'll again form a coalition with Independent Greeks.
    Last edited by alhoon; September 20, 2015 at 01:44 PM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Greece's Snap elections

    They will become more moderate but do SYRIZA have the know-how to save the ship?
    So possibly they need to appoint other people to the financial posts?
    2015 maybe will decide the future of Greece and the Euro..
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  3. #3
    Zephyrus's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Greece's Snap elections

    What is the best possible outcome for Greece, both the government and people, at this point? How do we keep Greece on track to recovery and prosperity? It does not appear to me that SYRIZA has our best interests in mind, taking their rhetoric to the extreme and failing to note the complex interactions that Greece has now with foreign interests.
    Last edited by Zephyrus; December 29, 2014 at 06:22 AM.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Greece's Snap elections

    The "memorandum"-supporting parties are trailing in the polls
    Schoker.... didnt you heard? social democracy has been declared death for some time....

    Similar results have been noticed in Portugal, and Spain, allthough it is mostly evident by the severe increase in Abstention. the memorandum parties, the major ones they do still lead, but by alot less percentage, while fringe parties have seen growth. acording to recent polls, and the last european elections.

    Elections at this time, that may be followed by another round of elections, will put a halt to progress. Spending will raise etc. This has already affected our stock market and I believe that fears of a SYRIZA victory would affect stock markets of Europe too.
    I find that hard to belive. if that was the case, the countries should just suspend democracy, or get rid of it alltogether. Because we would all be better of for it....Or so do they like us to think. It is the political equivelent of a psycological blackmail... We dont have other alternative, or else we are all doomed logic architype... In other era, wouldnt be an issue, as you would replace one figure head by another, and would mean the same thing, as it was for years before the crisis.

    Obviously the fault here is not democracy itself, its the uncertain times, and the fragile situation europe is in... and Greece naturaly.
    As there isnt a political consensus for the future on the matter. No one knows exctaly what to expect. And since its there is no conditions to achieve it, due to the said state of afairs, either economicaly, politicaly, and sociologicaly. All effects of the euro crisis mind you.
    While Greece and countries like it, are sufferening, from this issues, the same effects and phenoms have been propagated to most of europe, regardless in some measure anyway.
    Otherwise you wouldnt have the rise of euroscepticism, linked to the surge of nationalistic far right parties.

    Now, if SYRIZA finally wins after 1 or 2 rounds of elections, I believe they won't do anything drastically different from the previous parties but even deviation from the path would cost us dearly. And there's always the possibility that they will do something stupid (like default) and damn Greece's and to an extend EU's economy
    Plenty would say it is inevitable, it is only a matter of time. All is left to do is managment and contaiment of damage until then... or something changes drasticaly. Or you do belive economies like the Portuguese and the Greek are viable enough, to sustain their debts as is? most evidence points to contrary.


    What is the best possible outcome for Greece, both the government and people, at this point? How do we keep Greece on track to recovery and prosperity? It does not appear to me that SYRIZA has our best interests in mind, taking their rhetoric to the extreme and failing to note the complex interactions that Greece has now with foreign interests.
    regardless what is best ( no one realy knows at this point... that is the problem actualy, otherwise we wouldnt have this issue in europe atm everything is questionable, because everything at this point, isnt working very well, and had led us up to this instance), what you going to do? Suspend democracy? People will vote good or bad.... the fact is people are largely unhappy with current status and current parties... i cant say i blame them.
    Last edited by Knight of Heaven; December 29, 2014 at 06:52 AM.

  5. #5
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Greece's Snap elections

    We should cancel even any typical 'democracy' remaining here, and just be ruled as a gau

    I doubt syriza will do "well", but i also doubt they are equally able to be the absolute criminal/thieves that the current coalition parties are.
    That said, it will take time for actual beneficial parties to be formed here, and i don't see it happening without the debt being cancelled one way or another. Remember that the debt was 90% of GDP when the glorious Eu started to 'help'. Now it is almost double that.
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Greece's Snap elections

    I'm starting to have serious doubts about the mental sanity of my fellow Greeks.

    51% of Greeks don't want there to be early elections...yet the most likely result is a SYRIZA coalition government or even a autonomous SYRIZA government.

    Honestly I don't know how anyone could vote for the people who would bring about early elections in Greece at this point in time. The time for change was when we were entering the financial crisis, when everything was going downhill anyway. It's simply too late for change now.

    I mean, what better omen do they need than an Italian-owned ship operated by a Greek company burning and sinking in the Adriatic?

  7. #7
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Greece's Snap elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight of Heaven View Post
    I find that hard to belive. if that was the case, the countries should just suspend democracy, or get rid of it alltogether. Because we would all be better of for it....Or so do they like us to think.

    ...
    what you going to do? Suspend democracy? People will vote good or bad.... the fact is people are largely unhappy with current status and current parties... i cant say i blame them.
    Elections in 3 months would be better and at the end of the year, they would be totally fine. It's these two months that are crucial and after the summer the situation would be stable enough for the government to step down and SYRIZA to take power, keep 90% in place, change 10% and call it a day.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Greece's Snap elections

    Honestly I don't know how anyone could vote for the people who would bring about early elections in Greece at this point in time. The time for change was when we were entering the financial crisis, when everything was going downhill anyway. It's simply too late for change now.
    Hum imo it is still going downhill, i would even say it never stopd going downhill...

    i dont know historicaly changes of this magnitude are never imideate, and take their time to settle in before they happen. I mean it is never overnight. 2011 was just a key starting point for the Greeks and europe, everything after that, has never been the same for most europeans.
    What im saying "alternatives" usualy need time to gain some traction and all that jazz.

    Elections in 3 months would be better and at the end of the year, they would be totally fine. It's these two months that are crucial and after the summer the situation would be stable enough for the government to step down and SYRIZA to take power, keep 90% in place, change 10% and call it a day.
    Better for what? and what stable exactly? The matter of fact is even with early elections, it never shouldnt be an issue. That is how the democratic system works. Its not because there is elections that the country, and govermental institutions stop working.

    but yeah i bet Syriza prefers to have majority, any party wanting to be goverment wants it. the thing is predicting the future is just that... conjecture...
    Last edited by Knight of Heaven; December 29, 2014 at 07:13 AM.

  9. #9
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Greece's Snap elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Stavroforos View Post
    I'm starting to have serious doubts about the mental sanity of my fellow Greeks.

    51% of Greeks don't want there to be early elections...yet the most likely result is a SYRIZA coalition government or even a autonomous SYRIZA government.

    Honestly I don't know how anyone could vote for the people who would bring about early elections in Greece at this point in time. The time for change was when we were entering the financial crisis, when everything was going downhill anyway. It's simply too late for change now.

    I mean, what better omen do they need than an Italian-owned ship operated by a Greek company burning and sinking in the Adriatic?
    Are you sure those aren't overcooked polls? I have to doubt that 51% of people in this country think that we are on any sort of right track currently. Unemployment is in mythical levels by now. I am 35 and surely never have seen such a bleak situation before in my entire life.
    Last edited by Kyriakos; December 29, 2014 at 07:06 AM.
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Greece's Snap elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight of Heaven View Post
    Hum imo it is still going downhill, i would even say it never stopd going downhill...

    i dont know historicaly changes of this magnitude are never imideate, and take their time to settle in before they happen. I mean it is never overnight. 2011 was just a key starting point for the Greeks and europe, everything after that, has never been the same for most europeans.
    What im saying "alternatives" usualy need time to gain some traction and all that jazz.
    Right, but considering we're approaching the 6th year of economic crisis in Greece, I don't think anyone should be in the mood to let that crisis go on longer with the prospect of a better long-term solution. A long-term and short-term agony should have been what people chose in previous elections, but it's too late now for that, unless people want the hardships to go on or get worse again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Are you sure those aren't overcooked polls? I have to doubt that 51% of people in this country think that we are on any sort of right track currently. Unemployment is in mythical levels by now. I am 35 and surely never have seen such a bleak situation before in my entire life.
    No, 51% of people don't want elections, not that 51% of people think everything is great. Elections mean stock market crashes until election day, and then if SYRIZA comes to power, further drops. Most people don't want elections because they don't want to risk the situation we're in, not because they don't want to see improvements.

  11. #11
    Zephyrus's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Greece's Snap elections

    The question is why would a government, any government, of the nation allow such a debt to take hold over public services and costs, and then allow its consequences to seep into the private sector. The government has the means to enforce regulations that establish conservative practices of public and private resources. It should be possible to encourage investment in Greece, without destroying the lives and society of the citizenry in the process. It should be possible to train greek students and unemployed workers for the needs of the global economy and any nation state in the world, and then offering incentives for their retirement back to Greece to continue the cycle again and again. It's not a wealthy country, so how was it able to fall so obviously and stupidly into the trap of EU-owned debt?
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Greece's Snap elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Zephyrus View Post
    The question is why would a government, any government, of the nation allow such a debt to take hold over public services and costs, and then allow its consequences to seep into the private sector. The government has the means to enforce regulations that establish conservative practices of public and private resources. It should be possible to encourage investment in Greece, without destroying the lives and society of the citizenry in the process. It should be possible to train greek students and unemployed workers for the needs of the global economy and any nation state in the world, and then offering incentives for their retirement back to Greece to continue the cycle again and again. It's not a wealthy country, so how was it able to fall so obviously and stupidly into the trap of EU-owned debt?
    So you think the cause of the private debt, was the public debt? im pretty sure it was the other way arround...

    In Portugal was like that ( And greece i suspect the same thing), Private enterprises, bussinesss, families, indebt themselfs, as banks lend cheap.. too cheap, so what happened is the economy was being financed by valued credit that, the economy itself couldnt sustain ( ( not to mention the inumerous private business dependent of state subsidies... it is everything linked after all.
    Not only the private debt is bigger then the public debt even now, but the state was forced to inject capital in Private banks in order to save them as long another sectors of the economy...
    What you dont seem to grasp, in the case of Portugal and Greece, the nature of the crisis, is profundly economic, unlike lets say Ireland. As long there is this unbalance, with the euro as high as it is.... debt will continue to increase, because the economies cant compete. Is that simple, you can shrink the state as much as you like, it wont solve the matter. ( reducing teh state as also effects, on health, education, justice, basic services etc) here in Portugal only this year near 400 schools closed... it is that drastic. For all intend and porpuses, europe, special south of europe is amidst a great depression.
    What has been happening, and i suspect anyway, is the final nail in the coffin, these economies will never recover, or will never be able to compete, they are being increasingly transformed to be focused on Tourism, and retiree leasure housing,a nd entertaiment for foreign people. ( China and Angola are buying Portugal in pieces as we talk).
    You may say that is a good thing, but lets say is the difference between the northen states, and states like florida for example. Without the beneficts of a banking and above all fiscal monetary union.

    I might be very negative about this or have a very bleak view of things (im Portuguese after all) but nothing i seen so far has convinced me, or even proof to bright.
    On top of that My own country is facing and will face a severe demographic collapse, meaning the work force in the future will automaticaly be even more inferior than it is. the signs are already showing, we begining to lack some specialized positions, like doctors and nurses, yet what we export most is recent doctor/nurse graduates, architects etc. Either for other european countries, or US, or Brazil, and Angola.
    It is ironic.
    It should be possible to train greek students and unemployed workers for the needs of the global economy and any nation state in the world, and then offering incentives for their retirement back to Greece to continue the cycle again and again.
    Why would they come back? These young people that already are leaving, have its qualifications, they will form families abroad, and most likely stay there I see it alot in my friends, is what is already happening.. they wont come back , maybe in old age but that doesnt matter. A country doesnt run on old people im afraid. harsh but is true. In fact One of the reasons of state expenditure is retirees. At least here in Portugal.
    http://www.newgeography.com/content/...ge-of-japanese
    http://www.voxeurop.eu/en/content/ar...e-extinct-2204
    I recon the economic globalization phenomena doesnt help the issue here. On the contrary.
    Last edited by Knight of Heaven; December 29, 2014 at 10:22 AM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Greece's Snap elections

    I think the economic prospects of Greece rest more on what the ECB ends up doing early in 2015 than the outcome of the election.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    http://www.wsj.com/articles/ecb-keep...ged-1417697312

    ECB’s Draghi Opens Door to New Stimulus, But Not Yet

    By BRIAN BLACKSTONE
    Updated Dec. 4, 2014 3:02 p.m. ET


    FRANKFURT—The European Central Bank opened the door to a dramatic escalation in its campaign to stimulate the eurozone’s stagnant economy, but deferred any moves until early 2015 amid signs of continuing divisions over the right course of action.


    ECB President Mario Draghi said Thursday that officials discussed purchases of government bonds, otherwise known as quantitative easing, a move that would mark a new chapter in the bank’s fight against excessively weak inflation. But he added they needed more time to gauge the effects of policies that they had already implemented while assessing how falling oil prices might affect the region’s already weak consumer prices.


    “We discussed the possibility of doing QE” with buying government bonds “as one option,” Mr. Draghi said after the ECB left its key interest rates unchanged at record lows at the bank’s monthly meeting. The ECB will reassess its policies early next year and decide whether it needs to do more, Mr. Draghi said, raising expectations that the ECB could act as soon as its next policy meeting on Jan. 22, although he didn’t commit to a time frame.


    “Early means early. It doesn’t mean at the next meeting,” Mr. Draghi said.


    Financial markets reacted negatively despite Mr. Draghi’s suggestion that bolder action could come soon, as investors had hoped for a more ironclad commitment to begin large-scale bond purchases, a policy that has been used extensively by central banks in the U.S., the U.K. and Japan. European and U.S. stocks fell Thursday, and the euro rose on Mr. Draghi’s comments.


    “They’re almost there but not quite over the line,” said Ken Wattret, economist at BNP Paribas. “The pieces of the jigsaw are falling into place.”


    The ECB opted against immediate action despite an annual inflation rate of 0.3% in the eurozone in November, far below the central bank’s target of just under 2%. The ECB lowered its 2015 forecast for consumer-price growth to 0.7% from 1.1% and in 2016 from 1.4% to 1.3%. The inflation forecasts didn’t fully incorporate the most recent drop in oil prices, which could push inflation even lower.


    “On the basis of their projections, any other central bank would have announced a policy change,” Mr. Wattret said.


    Mr. Draghi’s remarks contained a number of hints that more central-bank stimulus may be coming to Europe soon. He said the ECB would be “particularly vigilant” about the effect the sharp reduction in oil prices could have on consumer prices and expectations for future inflation, using a phrase that his predecessor, Jean-Claude Trichet, often deployed to signal imminent ECB action.


    Draghi Now Needs Help From The Markets, Says AXA Mario Draghi will have to hope that markets do not turn against him in the next quarter after announcing that the European Central Bank would take no further action to boost liquidity for at least three months, said John Porter, head of fixed income at AXA Investment Management. “He’s looking to buy time but it does beg the question of why the ECB is not acting now?” said Mr Porter. “Hopefully the markets will give him time.... There’s always the possibility they lose patience.” That could mean markets are in for a volatile couple of weeks. (juliet.samuel@wsj.com)


    Draghi Comments Confirm Expectation of QE in 1Q, Says Barclays Today’s ECB monetary policy announcement and President Draghi’s remarks cement Barclays’s expectation that the ECB will announce QE in the first quarter of next year and it could even come in January, they said in a note. They say they expect December headline inflation to fall to 0% in the eurozone and they also see an additional weakening of inflation expectations, a key indicator for the ECB. This “would add to pressure on all ECB Council members to support further measures including the purchase of government bonds at the 22 January policy meeting.”


    Mr. Draghi said the bank intended to raise the size of its balance sheet to early 2012 levels, implying a rise of around €1 trillion ($1.24 trillion). That was a firmer objective than in November, when the bank said it expected its current policies—which include cheap, four-year loans to banks and purchases of covered bank bonds and asset-backed securities—to achieve this rise.


    But the small shift in language was met with resistance within the ECB’s 24-member governing council. Mr. Draghi said a vast majority approved the change to the balance-sheet language, signaling some opposition.


    Jens Weidmann, the head of Germany’s powerful central bank, was among the dissenters, a person familiar with the matter said, because he didn’t want the ECB to commit prematurely to full-blown quantitative easing. The other German member of the governing council, executive board member Sabine Lautenschläger, has signaled resistance to buying government bonds. Quantitative easing is unpopular in Germany, Europe’s largest economy, where the policy fuels deep-rooted fears of inflation and the use of central-bank money to finance wasteful government spending.


    Mr. Draghi suggested that the ECB would move even in the face of German opposition if the ECB’s inflation target was at risk. “We don’t need unanimity” to launch quantitative easing, he said, adding that he was confident a program could be designed to achieve a consensus within the ECB, if needed. The ECB could also purchase other private-sector assets, he said, saying officials have discussed all types of assets except gold.


    Despite the negative reaction in financial markets, which may have grown overly optimistic about imminent ECB moves, the prospects for large-scale government bond purchases increasingly appear to be a question of when rather than if.


    When interest rates are near zero, as is the case with the ECB and other large central banks, the main lever to stimulate the economy is through purchases of assets with newly created money that increase the size of a central bank’s balance sheet and reduce borrowing costs for governments and the private sector.


    Quantitative easing also typically weakens the exchange rate, boosting exports and inflation. Mr. Draghi said the policy was shown to be effective in the U.S. and U.K., although it is a tougher call for Japan, given other challenges that economy faces.


    His comments underscore the divergent paths of major central banks as their economies recover at different speeds. The U.S. Federal Reserve and the Bank of England are expected to start raising interest rates next year as their economies see faster, jobs-rich recoveries than in the eurozone. In contrast, Japan and the ECB are ramping up their stimulus drives.


    Still, doubts persist as to whether even more aggressive stimulus measures from the ECB will restore economic vitality to the eurozone, whose $13.2 trillion economy is the world’s second largest after the U.S. Yields on European government and corporate bonds are already very low, suggesting further declines will have little traction on the economy unless they are matched by fiscal stimulus and reform measures to raise the growth potential of struggling European economies.


    Quantitative easing “is necessary to keep the economy out of recession and avoid another round of financial turmoil,” said Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody’s Analytics. “But I don’t think it is sufficient” without economic reforms in France and Italy.





  14. #14
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Greece's Snap elections

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Elections at this time, that may be followed by another round of elections, will put a halt to progress
    ...a halt to "progress" of the unsustainable and unpayable debt, in a country with a;huge debt -worth about 170% of GDP. Like it or not,Greece (and Portugal) can never recover unless it gets some debt forgiveness.
    What Syriza Says About Greece's Economy,
    Syriza plans to achieve the targets without extra borrowing because after a writedown on debt, Greece will not need to sustain such a high primary budget surplus.
    Syriza says it is fully committed in keeping Greece in the euro...wants the ECB to buy sovereign bonds.... He also wants a euro-region accord on public debt, similar to the London Debt Agreement of 1953, in which it was agreed to write off 50 percent of some of Germany’s external borrowing.
    Last edited by Ludicus; December 30, 2014 at 12:13 PM.
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  15. #15
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Greece's Snap elections

    Well, I'm not that optimistic Sphere. SYRIZA will give power back to the Kleptocrats for starters that they will start stealing more again. Then, to blow smoke it will give a little money to the "plebeians". We can't afford either whatever ECB does.

    Lucidus, while it sounds wonderful, I doubt our creditors will forgive half the money we owe them just because SYRIZA wishes so. If in some miraculous way SYRIZA pulls off a large write-off, then I'll vote them in 2019. But I don't think they're savy enough to blackmail/promise/earn trust enough for something big.


    The only good thing that I see in these elections is that Golden Dawn will probably lose power. After all, their leadership has been proven to be terrorists that murder people and are behind bars.
    Last edited by alhoon; December 29, 2014 at 08:18 PM.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  16. #16
    neoptolemos's Avatar Breatannach Romanus
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    Default Re: Greece's Snap elections

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Well, I'm not that optimistic Sphere. SYRIZA will give power back to the Kleptocrats for starters that they will start stealing more again. Then, to blow smoke it will give a little money to the "plebeians". We can't afford either whatever ECB does.

    Lucidus, while it sounds wonderful, I doubt our creditors will forgive half the money we owe them just because SYRIZA wishes so. If in some miraculous way SYRIZA pulls off a large write-off, then I'll vote them in 2019. But I don't think they're savy enough to blackmail/promise/earn trust enough for something big.


    The only good thing that I see in these elections is that Golden Dawn will probably lose power. After all, their leadership has been proven to be terrorists that murder people and are behind bars.
    When exactly thr kleptocrats ceased to have power and they are waiting for syriza alhoon?
    That's the lamest argument you could have come up with.
    Why are you in panic? Are you affected by the propaganda?
    There will be elections which probably won't give an autonomous majority and wider coalitions and compromise will be made. That's not a bad thing after all.
    The current government failed not only to implement the memorandum but failed to "save" the country from further "grexit" troubles despite of propagandizing some months ago that they have managed to do it "with the sacrifices of the Greek people".Now they are ringing the danger bell of "the danger of all these sacrifices to get waisted if SYRIZA comes to power" arguments. They are pathetic and it is an urgency to leave power as soon as possbible.

    SYRIZA will bring godzilla with them
    Last edited by neoptolemos; December 30, 2014 at 01:34 AM.
    Quem faz injúria vil e sem razão,Com forças e poder em que está posto,Não vence; que a vitória verdadeira É saber ter justiça nua e inteira-He who, solely to oppress,Employs or martial force, or power, achieves No victory; but a true victory Is gained,when justice triumphs and prevails.
    Luís de Camões

  17. #17

    Default Re: Greece's Snap elections

    SYRIZA might be pathetic ( as pathetic as anyother political power in the civilized developed world), the current "memorandum" establishment is even more pathetic though.
    By now, i dont think anyone is asking for miracles, but a clear path, out of the that we find ourselfs in.

    Portugal and Greece are very similar in this aspect as Neoptolemos said
    The current government failed not only to implement the memorandum but failed to "save" the country from further "grexit" troubles despite of propagandizing some months ago that they have managed to do it "with the sacrifices of the Greek people"
    Exactly the same thing here copy paste actualy.

    On top of that we had to bail out once again this year another banking disaster, this one pretty dam serious, that is yet to be fully resolved... that befall on the BES empire... due to corrupt CEOs, and managers, milions of tax evasion dealings with the corrupt regime of Angola, basicaly this are the same people ( family) that own Portugal since well before the last century.... Regimes change but the stay the same...
    And they dare to say the problem is in the public sector.... well it is now, that we need to bail out the private sector constantly... Not only we were forced to privatize The few Public profitable comnpanies, like ANA, and CTT, but we have dificulty to privatize the troubled public companies like TAP. Obviously.... there is also the matter of EDP privatization to china ( actualy is a nationalization to a foreign country but whataver) ( energy distribuition company) one of the most sucessfull energy company in Portugal, and in Europe for the likes of it, also the among the most expensive, it claims it cant have cheaper prices because of high coorporative tax in Portugal, and goes practise tax evasion via Luxemburg, and Amesterdam... oh EU is awesome, for Multinationals... and its going to be even better once the trans atlantic treaty is in place...
    Last edited by Knight of Heaven; December 30, 2014 at 11:55 AM.

  18. #18
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Greece's Snap elections

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Lucidus, while it sounds wonderful, I doubt our creditors will forgive half the money we owe them just because SYRIZA wishes so
    Let's wait and see what happens. Its the right thing to do. Just as we expected, Schäuble said there was "no alternative" (sic).
    From the news,
    Samaras ( talking about the elections) " what Parliament failed to do, the people must do". A splendid idea. In fact, Tsipras is right, democracy cannot be blackmailed, mr. Schauble.
    Greek deputies, the democratic opposition parties proved that democracy can’t be blackmailed despite pressures or even plotting. When the vast majority of the Greek people are determined to put an end to the policies of the memoranda and austerity, the deputies can only meet their obligations and harmonize with the popular will. Today, the government of Mr. Antonis Samaras, that has plundered the society for two and a half years and has already been committed to take new measures, is a thing of the past. With the will of our people, the austerity memoranda will also be a thing of the past in a few days. The future has already begun, be optimistic and happy
    Neptolemos
    The current government failed not only to implement the memorandum but failed to "save" the country from further "grexit" troubles despite of propagandizing some months ago that they have managed to do it "with the sacrifices of the Greek people".
    My dear friend, that's precisely what happens in Portugal.

    Knight of Heaven
    And they dare to say the problem is in the public sector.... well it is now, that we need to bail out the private sector constantly
    Hear, hear!
    That's the reason why Carlos Abreu Amorim-deputy leader of the right wing neoliberal PSD parliamentary group (the party that now governs Portugal) explains his ideological evolution- Why I'm not a liberal anymore - check out his facebook page. Better late than never.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    A minha evolução ideológica não aconteceu no último mês (por obra e graça do [banco] Espírito Santo)! Foi um processo longo que ganhou forma com as causas da crise financeira internacional de 2007 e que se acentuou com as PPP indígenas e o modo como se deram as quedas de bancos em Portugal (integrei a segunda CPI do BPN em 2012) e, sobretudo, ao perceber como tantos persistiam em fazer tudo da mesma maneira como se não existissem lições a retirar dos erros crassos do sistema
    De facto, este ultimo mês serviu para muitas coisas - uma das mais eloquentes decorre da percepção de que as pressões de fora para dentro da política assumem formas ainda mais sinuosas do que sabia.


    Last july,the president of Germany, Joachim Gauck said "Portugal is a good example of successful reforms".
    This man needs to learn the definition of an unsustainable debt: it's an economic situation where the cost of debt maintenance is so great that incoming revenues are not sufficient to continue servicing the debt and sustain essential costs of living, or in the case of a nation to sustain essential services.
    Last edited by Ludicus; December 30, 2014 at 01:05 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  19. #19

    Default Re: Greece's Snap elections

    One of the big reasons here in Portugal Ludicus, is that alot of private bussiness, special the ones based on key basic infrastructure, like education, transportation, and health area, are dependent of state subsidies to even break a profit...
    The scandal of the Private schools is a glaring example of that.

    This is not healthy, nor should have been the norm, but the few exception, for whataver reason... now that the tit is running dry, well things are mostly much more dire.

  20. #20
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Greece's Snap elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight of Heaven View Post
    are dependent of state...the scandal of the Private schools
    More precisely, it's the subordination of social interests to private ones. The Chinese EDP, the Brazilian "Portugal Telecom", the scandal of the private banks (BPN, Espirito Santo) etc...it's always the same old story-private profit at public expense.

    now that the tit is running dry, well things are mostly much more dire.
    Well,don't worry, they raise their prices every single year.Gasoline, gasoil, cooking gas, etc. Energy (EDP-2015), more 3,3%, just an example...and the profits? the profits raised 12%, last July.They never lose.
    Last edited by Ludicus; December 30, 2014 at 01:49 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

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