Discussion on Greek political, financial issues + new elections

[HannibalExMachina]

actually, that was a joke refering to this

After all, that guy with the toothbrush mustache and the brown shirt doesn't look like Leonidas to be honest, it reminds me more of a certain 3rd Reich Chancellor...

but hey, whatever floats your trireme

so, greek fascists never got around to mass kill, say, turks and greek nationalists fought german nationalists? greek fascist fought italian fascist? yeah, nationalists are still birds of a very similiar feather, quantity isnt everything. after all, those greek collaborators have the blood of their own people on their hands. same ideology doesnt make people BFFs. but since you think the vaguely communist or whatever liberals are monolithic, like the muslims and god knows who, i guess thats an easy mistake to make.

and let me remind you, conquering or at least subverting other nations to the benfit of your own is a hallmark of nationalism, the germans just had more initial sucess than others. again, who is the external enemy necessary to every nationalist ideology? usually, other nations. the balkan wars werent all about independence from the ottomans.

interesting that you bring up turkey, whose founder, if you will, could very well be a model for nationalists. doesnt have anything to do with greek nationalists constantly having beef with their turkish counterparts, im sure.

[alhoon]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I wonder what that pamphlet (maybe a Communist forgery?!) says? Perhaps ioannis would be kind enough to translate it for us, but admittedly that "Heil Hitler!" remark leaves little room to imagination. After all, that guy with the toothbrush mustache and the brown shirt doesn't look like Leonidas to be honest, it reminds me more of a certain 3rd Reich Chancellor...

I could translate it but it is stomach-turning. It's written by the current leader of Golden Dawn, praising Hitler. It starts with the title "Hitler for a 1000 years!", says nice things about Hitler and how great he was and closes with a quote from Hitler. In the last sentence the GD leader calls him "our Great Leader" and calls himself a Nazi. There are a ton of things there that would make our anti-nazi (not the radical antifa) members to suffer a stroke.

[Alastor]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I wonder what that pamphlet (maybe a Communist forgery?!) says? Perhaps ioannis would be kind enough to translate it for us, but admittedly that "Heil Hitler!" remark leaves little room to imagination. After all, that guy with the toothbrush mustache and the brown shirt doesn't look like Leonidas to be honest, it reminds me more of a certain 3rd Reich Chancellor...

As far as I can tell this is not a forgery. But of course it was written 30 years ago. I know my political beliefs have shifted several times in the past 30 years. For starters I got some now. So maybe his have shifted too. Maybe he is no longer a heil Hitler nazi and more of a heil Leonidas nazi, or sth. Artifacts such as these are interesting from a historical perspective either way.

[fkizz]

Collaborating with the invaders could be a very profitable hobby, gaining you a nice salary, a funny way to satisfy your primitive instincts by torturing partisans and a privileged position for grabbing the confiscated property of Jews.

I know such things happens, for example, George Soros, a Jew, commented on doing this on an interview that I have posted on TWC, where he said he had no remorse on being a nazi collaborator, but everyone played it down. In this particular case Soros doesn't seem like an Hungarian nationalist!
The behaviour you describe as "nationalist" is the behaviour of war profiteers, looters and racketeers, who see opportunity for profit without caring about nation ethnicity or ideology, what matters is who is the highest bidder.
Nationalism is not that mercenary mindset. Confused notion presented in the post!

As it has been mentioned repeatedly in previous post, the membership and the leadership of the Golden Dawn are usually ideological or maybe even biological descendants of these criminals.

Well that's a bold claim to say that Golden Dawn are descendants of Nazi collaborators. Also plays strong on the idea that ideology and personality is inherited by blood, the good old "born a slave, die as a slave; born as a nobleman, die as a nobleman" destiny decided at birth mindset, and alienates that Golden Dawn may simply have at their disposal powerful persuasion/recruitment methods, and what could they be.
Even conceding and assuming they are, in fact, descendants of nazi collaborators, by Racialistic reasons, NSDAP can't be applied to them. They would be seen as outsiders. A requirement to be under the center of NSDAP ideology is to have mostly Germanic blood and ancestry, anyone else is out. Someone only half germanic is still an outsider. South Europe as you know, isn't exactly fully germanic..
I don't understand why critics of Nazism always talk as if Nazism wasn't Racialist or didn't give importance on race. Isn't that some indirect flattery by anti racist standards?

Why wouldn't a nationalist praise the German occupation, which fought against the mainly communist resistance, liquidated tens of thousands of Jews and employed some really radical racial policies?

Why wouldn't a nationalist praise the German occupation?
Because 1) A nationalist defends his country, his "team". If there's a German occupation, by armed forces means, regardless of ideology of invader, that makes them the enemy. In case of military invasion, the ones invading you are the enemy in a nationalist mindset, the fact the invading army is german is irrelevant. In a non-nationalist mercenary mindset, you simply join the side that pays better.
In the same way a communist puts another communist first and a non-communist in second place, not that different. Simply communism is more international, but it's just as tribalist in this regard.

2) Nationalism isn't about exterminating jews and racial purity. That's the conclusion of NSDAP which is German Fascism that has ideas that are incompatible with Fascism of other countries. Japanese Fascism for example, do you think it was about exterminating Jews? Did it even bother to care much about jews?
And what about the deportation and purging of jews done by USSR in 20-30s?

So, why you and Ioannis keep ignoring all the evidence posted in the thread numerous times?

Because you keep using nazi groups or minority political parties to stereotype huge amounts of people.
In some countries being nationalist is the normal thing, and you are condemning whole ethnicities based on a vocal minority, and next you proceed to condemn people who use stereotypes to categorize a large group of people as being a "fascist thing to refuse doing".
Guess the abyss is starting to gaze back?

The biggest flaw though, is not trying to understand 1) Why is that group rising in power in the first place 2) Who sponsors the societal conditions that encourages such group to flourish 3) Are they legit organized for a takeover or are they just organizing themselves to maximimze imagery shock effect? 4) If Syriza had suceeded in providing a working alternative, would this be happening?

Question 3) is the most pertinent, because any legit Nazi, or even groups of former nazis, would have it in their interests to conceal their ideology and blend with the environemnt for legal purposes.
Also there's plenty of countries on earth that would give them refuge, for such countries were not linked to europe or WWII during said period. And... Greece is not one of those countries.

[Abdülmecid I]

Jesus, what's this fixation of Greek nationalism with Turkey? I can understand why Greek Nazis are terrified by the Communist Party, since its partisans quickly disposed of the Nazi collaborators in Meligalas and Kilkis, but this anti-Turkish hysteria looks weird. Perhaps, there's some sort of saltiness over the crushing defeat of Dumlupinar and the fact that Turkey is indirectly responsible for the fall of the military junta, by reacting to its military coup in Cyprus. Personally I blame the far-right's need to justify its violent instincts, by portraying them as a legitimate answer to the alleged aggression of the opposite side. Still, even the classic hatred between Hungarians, Romanians, Albanians, Serbs and etc. doesn't reach these levels of inferiority complex. Unfortunately the fact remains that even Hitler was called Adolf Pasha in his youth, Turkish naughtiness is irrelevant to the hilarious attempts of Golden Dawn desperately trying to hard its proud, Nazi past.

The photos you post, as well as the article, are from the 80's. It's quite ridiculous to even mention them. You keep repeating the same arguments over and over again. Given that these arguments have been smashed, it's not very wise of you, but let's have at it once more. It was the regime of Metaxas that I mentioned, and it was the said regime that fought and defeated fascist Italy and its Albanian ally. The collapse of the Metaxas line was mainly due to the fact that Greek communists, at the time serving in the Greek military as conscripts, massively deserted in order to form their beloved ELAS, which quite interestingly frequently came to "agreements" and "arrangements" with the German invader, as we can see from the picture here:

Well, if these arguments have been smashed, why don't you re-post your triumphant response? I have already linked to my post, so it should be easy to whitewash all this embarrassing evidence of 3rd Reich paraphernalia. Meanwhile, I am waiting for actual references to all these extravagant claims of the Greek army collapsing because of communists, who then collaborated with the Germans, as they're in direct contradiction to pretty much every academic paper and common knowledge on the issue. No, blogs and random images found in these same blogs don't count. By that logic, if we take into account every far-right blog as a credible source, then we would be forced to accept the equally imaginary existence of the Dorian (or was it Spartan? Maybe Ionian?) salute. The same applies to YOUTUBE rants uploaded by obviously pro-fascist accounts. Nice to see that Golden Dawn's obsession with Hitler and his merry company of butchers is dismissed as being 30 years old. Meanwhile, in my last post, I had provided English-written articles for how the leadership of the Golden Dawn continues to endorse Nazism, from tattoos to German Nazi songs. Of course, all these pamphlets full of praising the Nazis are still perfectly acceptable evidence, unless someone manages to present a statement by the leadership denying their criminal past. We're waiting impatiently! Seriously, as I said, I recognize that the Greek Nazis are anxious to hide their beliefs, because that could alienate a portion of their audience, who might enjoy bigotry and stupid slogans, but at least remains appalled by this macabre adoration of Hitler.

Well that's a bold claim to say that Golden Dawn are descendants of Nazi collaborators. Also plays strong on the idea that ideology and personality is inherited by blood, the good old "born a slave, die as a slave; born as a nobleman, die as a nobleman" destiny decided at birth mindset, and alienates that Golden Dawn may simply have at their disposal powerful persuasion/recruitment methods, and what could they be.

Nice attempt at distorting what I said. It's obvious that many children tend to follow the paradigm of their parents, who of course enjoy a privileged position at determining their character. Nothing to do with blood, I'm afraid. The connection of the Nazi group to the collaborators is well-attested and it concerns both the leadership (Mihaloliakos, the Führer, whom the membership literally calls his as Arhigos, the Greek translation of the German term and Kasidiaris, their sex symbol) and the voter-base. Apparently, Golden Dawn derives most of its popularity from South Peloponnese, a traditionally backwards country, with a history of collaborating with the Nazis.

Even conceding and assuming they are, in fact, descendants of nazi collaborators, by Racialistic reasons, NSDAP can't be applied to them. They would be seen as outsiders. A requirement to be under the center of NSDAP ideology is to have mostly Germanic blood and ancestry, anyone else is out. Someone only half germanic is still an outsider. South Europe as you know, isn't exactly fully germanic.. I don't understand why critics of Nazism always talk as if Nazism wasn't Racialist or didn't give importance on race. Isn't that some indirect flattery by anti racist standards?

Factually incorrect. Even in its primary version, Nazism concentrates on Aryan, not Germanic races. Last time I checked, Greek is a Indo-European language, which explains why Nazi parties existed there before the arrival of the Germans. Even if they weren't, Nazism has been modified to represent the supremacy of different tribes and even if this hasn't happened, I don't see why I should defend the Nazi thugs of Greece for holding self-contradictory beliefs. Their intelligentsia is hardly a beacon of reason and knowledge, so, given their anti-scientific stance, nothing would be surprising.

Because 1) A nationalist defends his country, his "team". If there's a German occupation, by armed forces means, regardless of ideology of invader, that makes them the enemy. In case of military invasion, the ones invading you are the enemy in a nationalist mindset, the fact the invading army is german is irrelevant. In a non-nationalist mercenary mindset, you simply join the side that pays better.

Alright, and their team benefited greatly from the Germans, by getting rid of Jews and communists. I had already mentioned that point previously. Of course, let's not beat around the bush, the main reason why so many nationalists were infatuated with the invading Nazis was their ideological similarities and the fact that it offered them a great opportunity to evolve from petty criminals trading opium to well-respected middle-class gentlemen.

snip

Not all nationalists are Nazis but all Nazis are nationalists. This elementary conclusion and inconvenient association may be upsetting, according to the standards of the dominating right-wing political correctness, but it's the truth. Still irrelevant to the discussion, because, despite considering all forms of nationalism as inherently stupid, the Golden Dawn is a cute, little Nazi party. Do I really need to post the uncomfortable evidence once again? I don't see why you keep defending these Nazi criminals, fkizz. I'm not insulting them, I'm just describing them for what they are, violent Nazis nostalgic of Hitler and his hordes, whose moral integrity is presumably comparative to those of their collaborating ancestors, ideologically and sometimes biologically.

Μeanwhile, on a lighter note, our new gallery about the Golden Dawn's ties with Nazism will concern the aforementioned sex symbol and a visual clarification of how minors are indoctrinated:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Bad news girls, looks like Kasidiaris has managed to find his soulmate. I must say that this cross-symbol in his shoulder gives me the impression off a Swastika, but admittedly there are several meanders below, so I suppose everything is fine. Probably a tribute to Themistocles or something. They don't look old either, but nothing is certainm until the possibility of a Jewish Bolshevik image manipulation has been undeniably rejected, by the blog experts. I recommend everyone to add "Golden Dawn Nazi" to the Google Translate and then search the translation (Χρυσή Αυγή Ναζί). The results are a hilarious gold-mine, in terms of kitsch and the comically dishonest argumentation employed in this thread.

[fkizz]

Factually incorrect. Even in its primary version, Nazism concentrates on Aryan, not Germanic races.

On primary version and foundation myth, yes. Put in practice, it was about militarism putting germanics first, preferably from Germany/Austria. Netherlands were Germanic, and yet they still got military agression. Even the Dutch, put in practice, were not Aryan/Germanic enough for NSDAP standards.

Last time I checked, Greek is a Indo-European language, which explains why Nazi parties existed there before the arrival of the Germans. Even if they weren't, Nazism has been modified to represent the supremacy of different tribes and even if this hasn't happened, I don't see why I should defend the Nazi thugs of Greece for holding self-contradictory beliefs.

Well, seems we got some agreement. The whole Indo-European thing is true on foundation myth, and theory, but in practice it ends up with supressing with deadly force those non-germanic enough. Which is why a nazi greek movement cannot go seriously far unless it mutates, ideology is contradictory to their blood.
Existence of nazi parties before arrival of nazi forces likely could be effort to dull greek armed forces resistance, but I'm speculating.

so many nationalists were infatuated with the invading Nazis was their ideological similarities and the fact that it offered them a great opportunity to evolve from petty criminals trading opium to well-respected middle-class gentlemen.

I just don't understand why you insist on invalidating people who use stereotype as bigotry and "fascist thing to discard", and then proceed to classify people of dissident ideologies as "very likely nazis" based on a low % adherence political parties.

Still irrelevant to the discussion, because, despite considering all forms of nationalism as inherently stupid

Nationalism was pushed in XIX by freemasonry as a progressive movement to dismantle feudalism and monarchy. Do you disaprove of this?

the Golden Dawn is a cute, little Nazi party. Do I really need to post the uncomfortable evidence once again?

It's neither uncomfortable or comfortable I can see they wave around Nazi items, it's still conflictive with the fact that a real nazi would have everything to gain by laying low, and everything to lose by waving werhmacht flags, so it begs the question why would a political party do a PR suicide.
In other words, what would a real nazi with long term strategy do. Wave a bunch of flags?
Let's assume they are legit adherents of NSDAP ideology. What are they going to do about not being Germanics? Required, in obvious practice, to be a good Nazi member.

Again why are you pretending the Nazis were not Racialist? Is this not indirect flattery from an anti racist point of view?
And finally, on GD containing Nazis and colaborators. What do you propose as policy making to deal with such? That EU declares War on Greece to stop its Nazism?
A greek GD empathiser reading my posts could maybe get a hint or two on why GD may be against his interests as a greek citizen, while a greek GD empathiser would read your posts and just be insulted, further validating his worldview.

I don't see why you keep defending these Nazi criminals, fkizz. I'm not insulting them, I'm just describing them for what they are, violent Nazis nostalgic of Hitler and his hordes, whose moral integrity is presumably comparative to those of their collaborating ancestors, ideologically and sometimes biologically.

I'm not defending nazi crimes; I'm just pointing your preference to label people with different opinions as Nazis, which is forcing a negative stereotype on people who you do not perceive as part of your tribe. A "either you agree with me or you are an irrational nazi criminal while I am the Good One" argument is not very correct thing to do.
Fallacy of false dichotomy!
And no, I'm not talking about GD in this sentence. I don't live in Greece, a Greek citizen would more easily describe GD than me.

[ioannis76]

Jesus, what's this fixation of Greek nationalism with Turkey?

"Jesus"? I knew there were millions of cryptochristians in Turkey. Orthodox? Koptic?

In my discussions with muslims in Thrace, it's always been a "(w)aaaalah" when I said something they found difficult to comprehend (it was not a "clear" "A" in Allah, you could hear a "w" or "v" in the beginning of the word).

On topic, do you think that it's just "Greek nationalism" that has a problem with Turkey?
Do you REALLY think that?
What about the Minor Asian massacre of Greeks in 1914 (Greeks of the Pontus, the northern coast of Anatolia) and again in 1922 in Smyrni? Our grandparents were alive when they happened. Don't you think they told us about it?
What about the 1955 Pogrom, and the slaughter of thousands of Greeks in Constantinople after the provocation on the turkish embassy in Thessaloniki? I've met Turks who felt guilty about that. How much ultranationalism must one have, in order to just forget about it?
What about our dead troops in Imia, in 1996?
What about our murdered pilots?
What about the constant violations of our airspace?
What about the constant war threats from the moustached joke of a Neosultanic President, and his Kemalofascist predecessors? May I remind you what he said in 2013?
http://www.tanea.gr/news/politics/ar...kai-ta-skopia/
"When we say Thrace, we include Komotini as well as Thessaloniki"
What about our EEZ, which Turkey disputes, and ridiculously does not recognize the continental shelf of the islands?

No, Abdul, it would be good for Turkey if it was only the Greek "nationalists" who hate that country and view it as its number one enemy. But it's not. When it comes to Turkey, we are all nationalists. If there is a war with Turkey (I hope there is one, soon), Turkey will find that out. Where will Turkey send its "Asker" first? To the West, against the Greeks? To the Southwest, against the Kurds who will take the opportunity to liberate occupied lands? How will the inexperienced turkish pilots, of an airforce decimated by Erdogan's dishonorary discharges of pilots, face the experienced fighter pilots of Greece?

[PointOfViewGun]

Interstingly enough, the "fascist" Metaxas fought against fascist Italy, giving the Allies their first ever victories against the Axis, while Turkey did... what, exactly? And the Axis took... which actions, exactly, against Turkey? Oh, none, but old Adolph had a sweet spot for Mustafa Kemal, and he wouldn't want to do anything against the country of the man that he himself admitted as his own mentor (as well as Mussolini's). In fact, the eradication of Jews was inspired by the eradication of the Greeks of Pontus and the rest of Minor Asia, as well as, of course the fate of the Armenians.

Well, your "fascist" Kemalist Turkish president, İsmet İnönü who fought Greeks personally two decades earlier, of the time decided to help Greeks who were experiencing famine. Food was collected through out Turkey and was transported by ship to Greece. Despite losing a ship in the meantime Turkey continued to supply Greece with food till 1946. Ugh... Despicable... Right?

[alhoon]

Well, your "fascist" Kemalist Turkish president, İsmet İnönü who fought Greeks personally two decades earlier, of the time decided to help Greeks who were experiencing famine. Food was collected through out Turkey and was transported by ship to Greece. Despite losing a ship in the meantime Turkey continued to supply Greece with food till 1946. Ugh... Despicable... Right?

Any source of that "fact" about "without benefits" generosity from a butcher with the blood of hundred of thousands in his hands?

[Abdülmecid I]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Kurtulu%C5%9F
I don't think that İsmet İnönü has been involved in any massacres, except perhaps for his indirect role in the violent suppression of the tribal uprising in Dersim. That wasn't relevant to Greeks, though, and it certainly did not result into hundreds of thousands of victims.

"Jesus"? I knew there were millions of cryptochristians in Turkey. Orthodox? Koptic?

Neither Turkish nor religious, which is why I keep telling you that I'm not going to be triggered by weak deflections from my obviously embarrassing questions for you. Feel free to complain about the Turkish-Greek relations, that was not the point of the discussion, as you perfectly know. So, am I going to receive any answer from the people who keep pretending that Golden Dawn is not a Nazi group or not? Μeanwhile, the comedy continues:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Pretty edgy stuff, if you ask me, but Pappas with his little, brown shorts is the cutest Nazi ever!

And no, I'm not talking about GD in this sentence. I don't live in Greece, a Greek citizen would more easily describe GD than me.

Alright, we're talking about the Golden Dawn here and I don't feel particularly inclined to argue why nationalism is an idiotic ideology in a thread about Greece.

[ioannis76]

Nice try, but Kurtulus's voyages were actually funded by the Greeks of Constantinople (at the time a thriving and prosperous population, until Turkey massacred them in 1955):
https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9A...F%CE%B9%CE%BF)

Η κύρια προσπάθεια πάντως χρηματοδοτήθηκε από την Ελληνοαμερικανική Πρωτοβουλία Αποκατάστασης Θυμάτων Πολέμου και την Ελληνική Ένωση Κωνσταντινοπολιτών (δηλαδή από Έλληνες της Κωνσταντινούπολης).[1]

"The main effort, however, was funded by the Greek-American Initiative for Restoration of Victims of War, and the Greek Union of Constantinopolitans."

@Abdul. Neither Turk, but you keep defending Turkey at every turn. If you want to "open my eyes" for GD and ghosts of 70 years ago, which would not be revived under any circumstances (it would be RIDICULOUS to think that a country like Greece would conduct mass extermination when in thousands of years of our history there have never been any cases of such actions). If you don't like Greek nationalism so much, how about you stop feeding it, ie stop (as a country) being aggressive towards my country? Dogukan is a person who declares himself turkish, yet he is not afraid to speak openly about what Turkey is doing. If more people in Turkey were like him, there would be no need for nationalism or even hostility of Greeks toward Turkey.
What is needed in Greece in the current situation? What is the problem? That some MP with some others went on a mountain and held a flag of the third reich? Or that the "serious", "patriotic", "law abiding" politicians of the "democratic" side, are neither serious, nor patriotic, nor la abiding? The "democratic" politicians held positions such as "we will rip apart the Memorandum", "we will kick the IMF and the Commission out of our country", and immediately when they were elected, they changed 180 degrees and became the best slaves of those who ravage the Greek society. Iliopoulos (the MP in the first image) continued to stand by what he said, all through 18 months of prison cells. From the GD MPs who were imprisoned, only 2 "broke" and said "I am not with them, I am a democrat" and all of a sudden all the charges were dropped.
GD provided help for Greeks (that is where the salary they got from their MP status went) when the "democrats" wouldn't spare two for the Greeks (even a few days ago, one man in Chania was found dead, and even though the PM declared three days of national mourning for the 21 (just today they found another dead body) casualties of the floods in Attica, their "democratic" MPs didn't even GO TO SEE the people there (on the contrary GD went and helped the people with supplies), and not only that, but those "democrats" even spent the Saturday night in Night Clubs:

For "little Amir" a kid who was allegedly a victim of a racist attack (nobody was arrested, and there is MUCH evidence that it was staged, to get the mother permission to go to Germany, where the welfare benefits are better), here she is describing the racist attack on her son: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhbPjp2Mv18
Do you know what the (leftist) journalist says in the end? "Tell her not to laugh, she laughs at all points". "Little Amir" was admitted to the Presidential building, where the Greek Prime Minister gave him a flag.
For Murto, a young girl of 15 (at the time) who was brutally raped and almost killed by a Pakistani (he tried to crush her head with a rock), there was NOTHING. Here she is, as she was before, and after the attack:

And you come here and tell me WHAT? That I should support those who want to fill Greece with more individuals like this son of a whore:
http://www.newsit.gr/files/Image/00-...s2_499_355.jpg
(he is the creature that attacked, raped and almost killed her).
That I should support those who don't give two for the impoverished Greeks, even when they die, and only care for their nice, well payed positions (I doubt that they even care about the "refugees", they are just virtue signalling what is in fashion).
No, Mr. Abdülmecid I, Turk or not, it doesn't make any difference, we've heard the same from Greeks who only care about virtue signalling. We've had enough of that . If modern democracy sucks so much, I'd rather not have democracy, thank you.

[alhoon]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Kurtulu%C5%9F
I don't think that İsmet İnönü has been involved in any massacres, except perhaps for his indirect role in the violent suppression of the tribal uprising in Dersim. That wasn't relevant to Greeks, though, and it certainly did not result into hundreds of thousands of victims.

Oh, I have mistaken him for someone else. Yeap, that source seems mostly legit. @Ioannis while the source states most of the food was gathered by the Greek church and Greeks in Turkey, evidently, Turkey did give the ship and some of the people donating money and food were Turks.
I have no problem admitting these guys helped somewhat in a very bad time for Greece.

About the Pakistani monster that raped that kid: He doesn't represent 1 million+ Pakistanis that have crossed Greece. Why is it so hard to understand that the crimes committed by 1% (or less) don't represent the 99%

About warcrimes: We have commited mass murders of grand scale on our own people often enough though, throughout the 3600 years we're around as a tribe.
For example, Metaxas had a brutal dictatorship too that was aaaaall to kin to indiscriminately torture\depose\kill everyone he assumed disagreed with him. Members of my family have been exiled by him you know. We were the lucky ones.
So, apologies if we don't trust the spiritual successors of Nazi collaborationists and Metaxas apologists to run the country.

And no, a letter from Michaloliakos "all those years ago!" about how much he loved Hitler is still inexcusable. Let alone that even if we are willing to examine whether he had a change of heart and if he now dislikes Hitler ... he totally preaches the same things. So no, he's still the same "We love our great leader Hitler" Nazi.

You can hide behind as many immigrant crimes you want. Doesn't change the fact that GD leadership loves dressing as Nazis, that Pappas worships and salutes Mussolini and Michaloliakos considers himself a commander in Hitler's army.
These guys should be faaaar more respectful to freedom of speech, else they would be in jail for their treasonous affection to the most brutal masters Greece has ever seen.

[PointOfViewGun]

Any source of that "fact" about "without benefits" generosity from a butcher with the blood of hundred of thousands in his hands?

You're confusing the Greek army officers with İsmet İnönü...

Nice try, but Kurtulus's voyages were actually funded by the Greeks of Constantinople (at the time a thriving and prosperous population, until Turkey massacred them in 1955):
https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9A...F%CE%B9%CE%BF)

Sigh... Yes, Greeks of Turkey had a hand in funding the relief effort and they worked with the Turkish state to deliver the food that was collected in a joint operation with the Turkish Red Crescent to Greece proper. Such dumb hatred is surely blinding...

I love how Turks are being always accused of exterminating Greeks through out history at different points. Perhaps some people see Greeks of Turkey as appearing out of nowhere periodically. Greeks were supposedly exterminated during World War I but they were around during World War II to help Greece. Then they were somehow massacred in 1955, when in fact, only a few dozen people died during the Istanbul riots. It's also safe to note that Greek population of Istanbul was already at a gradual decline before 1955 and that pace did not quicken with 1955.

If you want to "open my eyes" for GD and ghosts of 70 years ago, which would not be revived under any circumstances (it would be RIDICULOUS to think that a country like Greece would conduct mass extermination when in thousands of years of our history there have never been any cases of such actions).

Since this is true for pretty much any country that wasn't founded yesterday, such a statement is a self-evident blindly nationalistic, to the degree of destructive, statement.

[ioannis76]

Perhaps some people see Greeks of Turkey as appearing out of nowhere periodically. Greeks were supposedly exterminated during World War I but they were around during World War II to help Greece. Then they were somehow massacred in 1955, when in fact, only a few dozen people died during the Istanbul riots. It's also safe to note that Greek population of Istanbul was already at a gradual decline before 1955 and that pace did not quicken with 1955.

I think you should read some history regarding the early and mid 20ieth century. Greeks were exterminated from the Northern coast of minor asia (1914) and the Western minor asian Coast (Smyrni) 1922. The reason why Greeks of Constantinople were not eradicated completely by Kemal in 1922, is, quite simply, that Constantinople was NOT under turkish control at the time, but was under BRITISH control. In fact, turkish forces entered Constantinople, only after signing the Lausagne Treaty. The first turkish troops to enter the city were on October 6, 1923. Kemal must have already been having second thoughts for eradicating the Greeks, particularly of the western coast of the Aegean, since their businesses provided much needed revenue for Turkey, and replacing them with people from Anatolia... well, wasn't working out too well.

Since this is true for pretty much any country that wasn't founded yesterday, such a statement is a self-evident blindly nationalistic, to the degree of destructive, statement.

?!?!?! Greece is an exception, m8. Most countries that weren't founded yesterday were, in fact, responsible for lots of .

About the Pakistani monster that raped that kid: He doesn't represent 1 million+ Pakistanis that have crossed Greece. Why is it so hard to understand that the crimes committed by 1% (or less) don't represent the 99%

Where do you draw your evidence from? These are just "statistics" that you just made up. Criminals from Pakistan are responsible for some of the worst, most violent crimes in Greece. They are also responsible for sale of illegal substances, not to mention the less severe crimes of illegal trade. Criminals from Albania and Georgia, of course hold the reign of the most violent crimes. To say that oh, look 99% of them are law abiding is QUITE RIDICULOUS. Not even the far Left wouldn't say that, this would make them actual angels. That is what we call metanastolagneia, and it's quite disgusting.
Here are some of the most brutal crimes of those innocent, sweet and cuddly immigrants:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOBckWeJD0A
March 211, Albanian criminals open fire with automatic weapons on police officers in pursuit. 2 officers, 22 years of age, die.
May 2011, 44 year old Manolis Kantaris is murdered in Athens, just as he was getting his wife to the hospital, to give birth. 2 Afghans murder him, in order to steal his video camera, with which he intended to record his child's first moments.
May 2012, 3 Afghans butcher 29 year old Thanasis Lazanas,
June 2012, 52 year old pharmacist Spiros Poukamisas is executed with 5 bullets by illegal immigrants in Redi, at 3:30 in the afternoon. Their aim was to grab the folder he was holding in his hands.
January 10, 2013 two elderly women are found brutally murdered in their house. 3 Georgians are arrested.
May 2013, Albanian escaped convicts of the Trikala prison, murder 25 year old Katerina Zogali during an exchange of fire with police officers. A few days later, they murder Giorgos Andritsopoulos, a police officer. Mario Kolla, one of the Albanians, is killed after a pursuit and exchange of fire, whereas Ilir Koupa finds refuge back in his country. PS. Mario Kolla was buried as a hero in Albania.
June 2013, a couple is found murdered in Aliveri. A Gynaecologist and his wife were brutally murdered by a 19 year old Pakistani to whom they offered work, in order to help him finacnially. He smashed their heads with a rock (just like the case of Myrto), even though he said that he referred to them as "mother" and "father".

The list of victims is literally ENDLESS.
In fact, non-Greeks are responsible for the vast majority of crime in Greece, the more violent, the higher their participation. Add to that, the fact that in most cases when a "Greek" is arrested, this "Greek" is in fact a Roma.

[alhoon]

Do you seriously accuse me of Metanastolagnia?!?! Who do you think you're talking to buddy?

Let us see your statistics then. Because when I ran the numbers 2 years ago (the post is probably in this thread) it was 99.4% or something of the immigrants being OK.
We have ~1.5M Immigrants if you count legal, asylum seekers and illegal ones.

Do you want to talk murders? Let's talk murders. 184 murders in 2016. So, even if every last one of them was made by an immigrant, we have 184 murderers in 1.5 millions.
Robberies, ranging from street muggings to burglaries? 80000 in 2009. Even if every one of them was made by an immigrant and any such criminal committed just 3 street muggings\burglaries\robberies\breaking-and-entering you have 25000 criminals in 1.5M people.

Do you understand now why I say 99% of them have never committed any crime other than entering the country illegally?

And I would wait for your statistics of the "Vast majority of crimes" being committed by immigrants, cause last time I checked it was 45% locals and 55% immigrants. Do you consider the 55% over 45% a vast majority?

Next time, before you start accusing the true patriots that don't worship collaborationist scum and Nazis run the numbers first.

[Alastor]

Well, in 2012, immigrants were responsible for about half the criminal activity in Greece.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-radio-and-tv-19269891
That is no laughing matter. Furthermore this is based on reported incidents, numerous incidents go unreported, or get reported and dismissed by the inept Greek police. So there is no denying the impact immigration has had on crime or the feeling of safety of the local population. I have personally been affected by such criminal activity, as has my family. I remember fully well how the police was completely incapable of providing anything other than a token support and the only ones that could really help my family was the local chapter of the GD. How? By proceeding to further criminal activity. Personally, I realized then, as I realize now that this is lawlessness, ie chaos, and I blame the Greek authorities for being absent and incapable more than the criminals. But I can totally understand why people in that situation would follow GD and believe their hyperboles, for many of those poor, disenfranchised, deplorables(to borrow from HC) they really are their last line of defense.

[PointOfViewGun]

I think you should read some history regarding the early and mid 20ieth century. Greeks were exterminated from the Northern coast of minor asia (1914) and the Western minor asian Coast (Smyrni) 1922. The reason why Greeks of Constantinople were not eradicated completely by Kemal in 1922, is, quite simply, that Constantinople was NOT under turkish control at the time, but was under BRITISH control. In fact, turkish forces entered Constantinople, only after signing the Lausagne Treaty. The first turkish troops to enter the city were on October 6, 1923. Kemal must have already been having second thoughts for eradicating the Greeks, particularly of the western coast of the Aegean, since their businesses provided much needed revenue for Turkey, and replacing them with people from Anatolia... well, wasn't working out too well.

Atatürk is known for refusing to step on the Greek flag as he entered Izmir. Upon seing the scene, he uttered that flags are sacred and that nobody no one has the right to disrespect them, even if its ones enemy's. I know its convenient to portray Turks as the massacres during a time when the Greek army was utilizing scorched earth policy to kill and destroy western Anatolia. The difference in perspective of the enemy is portrayed in the Red Cross reports:

Helping civilian internees and prisoners of war

In January and February 1922 and again at the beginning of 1923, ICRC delegates visited prisoners of war and civilian detainees on both sides. In Greece, the ICRC visited all of the detention camps. The majority of the detainees were civilians, mainly women, children and old men. Representatives of the Hellenic Red Cross made regular visits to those places and distributed aid.

At the end of its round of visits, the ICRC called for the old men, women, children and breadwinners in particular to be repatriated first. These repatriations began shortly after the ICRC mission.

In Turkey, an ICRC delegate visited the Greek prisoners, who, unlike the Turks interned in Greece, were practically all military personnel. As these persons had no personal effects, they were provided with clothing by the Turkish Red Crescent. At the end of his visit, the ICRC delegate distributed aid in cash and kind.

The actual, and very large, Greek population decline in Istanbul was due to the population exchange signed between Turkey and Greece.

?!?!?! Greece is an exception, m8. Most countries that weren't founded yesterday were, in fact, responsible for lots of .

Greece was founded yesterday then?

[alhoon]

Well, in 2012, immigrants were responsible for about half the criminal activity in Greece.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-radio-and-tv-19269891
That is no laughing matter. Furthermore this is based on reported incidents, numerous incidents go unreported, or get reported and dismissed by the inept Greek police. So there is no denying the impact immigration has had on crime or the feeling of safety of the local population. I

Of course illegal (and legal) immigrants have created a large spike in crime. And let's not forget that the illegal immigrants for whatever reason did commit a certain crime: They entered illegally. Sure, they have their reasons; poverty, prosecution etc. Still, that's illegal and for a good reason.

But the GD neo-Nazis and some posters here didn't say "Half the crimes" but "The vast majority of crimes".

[Alastor]

But the GD neo-Nazis and some posters here didn't say "Half the crimes" but "The vast majority of crimes".

Those would be the aforementioned GD hyperboles.

[ioannis76]

Do you seriously accuse me of Metanastolagnia?!?! Who do you think you're talking to buddy?

Let us see your statistics then. Because when I ran the numbers 2 years ago (the post is probably in this thread) it was 99.4% or something of the immigrants being OK.
We have ~1.5M Immigrants if you count legal, asylum seekers and illegal ones.

Do you want to talk murders? Let's talk murders. 184 murders in 2016. So, even if every last one of them was made by an immigrant, we have 184 murderers in 1.5 millions.
Robberies, ranging from street muggings to burglaries? 80000 in 2009. Even if every one of them was made by an immigrant and any such criminal committed just 3 street muggings\burglaries\robberies\breaking-and-entering you have 25000 criminals in 1.5M people.

Do you understand now why I say 99% of them have never committed any crime other than entering the country illegally?

And I would wait for your statistics of the "Vast majority of crimes" being committed by immigrants, cause last time I checked it was 45% locals and 55% immigrants. Do you consider the 55% over 45% a vast majority?

Next time, before you start accusing the true patriots that don't worship collaborationist scum and Nazis run the numbers first.

LOL, you pull a number out of your belly, when even you admit that the crime rates are 55%-45% with the immigrants having the 55%. And YES it IS a VAST majority (is THAT your problem? Whether we are talking about VAST majority of JUST majority? LOL, what hypocrisy!), particularly if you were to check the numbers of the immigrants living here, and compare this to the number of Greeks. I.e., Greeks are the majority (so far, at least) and even so, they are responsible for LESS crime than the immigrants. Furthermore, if you consider that "Roma" are counted as "Greeks" (another "success story of the ing myth of assimilation", they have been here forever, and still their main occupation is illegal scrap (even removing parts of the electricity company), drugs, prostitution, robbery and begging) the situation gets even worse. And of course, your "argument" that 99% of them never committed a crime is ridiculous, and based on no evidence at all. How is it possible that 1% of the ing immigrant population is responsible for 55% of the total crime in Greece? No the vast majority of them DO commit crimes.
Ffs, we all have eyes and we see. The crime of immigrants is an "elephant in the room", and some people just don't want to admit it, preferring to play with words instead, or idiotically think that the police is some kind of omnipresent entity, that can be at the same time everywhere. Anything, just don't blame the precious "immigrants".

Here's some information about the pressure they put on the welfare system, as well (apart from the resources that the state is forced to use on trying to curb their crime mania).
I completely understand what Molyneaux says here about hysterical brain parasite jerks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u1J6EEhkyM
Not talking about anyone here, of course.