Discussion on Greek political, financial issues + new elections

[Basil II the B.S]

I disagree. For a few years more the policies Troika suggests will be negotiated with the Greek government and then the Greek government will implement them if they think they are right.

Where exactly have been these negotiations? When it was Samaras government, there wasn't any. It was ''take it''.
When Tspiras got elected asking for negotiations there wasn't any, until the very last few days it was ''take it or leave it''.
So you are grappling yourself around a hope that they will renegotiate the package and the debt without any evidence they will do so? I'm sorry you are being incredibly naive here.

At the time, we see the Greek government thinking those suggested policies after 5 months of negotiations as not good for the country and backed down, asking us the people to decide whether to accept them. The Europeans have made some compromises but we don't consider them enough, so we backed down.

That's not dictating policies by the Troika and not surrendering sovereignity.

Actually it is. Until 2030 you are owing them money and do as they say. Also what about the gross mistakes in the IMF studies I pointed out? There's hardly any ground to support them.

I've been thinking, maybe it's not Greece's fault after all. We have this person in my office and she's awful at her job and everybody hates her. But she's worked years at other companies so maybe it's the fault of the interviewer to put her in a position she couldn't hack? I mean, Greece got taken into the Eurozone as if it was a western democratic country and it's not. It's a Balkan buffer zone that lurches from to coup to coup with an uneducated electorate and popularist and corrupt leaders. It was never suited to the western world and should have been left to what it does best - occasional bursts of violence, holiday islands for English teenagers and women with thick leathery arms sitting under olive trees.

Greeks elect the first honest, non corrupt leader and you throw a tantrum. Makes perfect sense as always.
''Why aren't Greeks choosing the corrupt leaders that brought them into this to begin with???!!!''

And contain the hate please. We get it, you don't like Greece. They are still a far more democratic country than any other in the EU right now. Only Switzerland is more democratic in the world.
But if you want to define that clique of plutocratic pedophiles you have up there as democracy, go ahead.

Or do you prefer that French exemplaries I posted about earlier? Their economy goes down the toilet, they know it but they can't say it in public because ''people might realize we suck and vote someone else''. That's your democracy?

[removeduser_487563287433]

Greeks elect the first honest

He's been actively lying about the content of the offer from the troika, how is he honest?

[Knight of Heaven]

He's been actively lying about the content of the offer from the troika, how is he honest?

How do you know?

[Camlon]

It is considered so by any relevant authority including the OECD.

Yeah, and according to OECD Estonia and Poland are condsidered developed countries.

Those lists are useless, because they don't want to kick countries off their list. Most people do not consider Poland and Estonia developed countries, hence Greece is not a developed country either.

http://www.oecd.org/els/health-syste...REECE-2014.pdf

" In Greece, 67% of health spending was funded by public sources in 2012, below the average
of 72% in OECD countries. "

Mexico , Chile, Hungary and Turkey are all OECD countries. Not exactly western countries.

If we look at the countries in your list, then we can see that Greece is spending more on private health care. Hence you need to look at public spending (%GDP), not total spending (%GDP). And in that area only Autralia, Ireland, Spain and Korea is behind Greece. That is radically different from pensions where Greece is number 1.

I can't see this assertion supported in the OECD report.

Why do need a report to tell you something? Take a look at the dark blue bars in your own link, and you will see what I explained to you.

http://www.oecd.org/els/health-syste...REECE-2014.pdf

[Basil II the B.S]

How do you know?

Probably that part where Junker said they didn't ask for any pension cuts when they actually did.
Except that the liar is Junker, beacon of Ferrets democracy, elected by absolutely noone. Chosen by tax evaders and plutocrats.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Yeah, and according to OECD Estonia and Poland are condsidered developed countries.

Those lists are useless, because they don't want to kick countries off their list. Most people do not consider Poland and Estonia developed countries, hence Greece is not a developed country either.






Mexico , Chile, Hungary and Turkey are all OECD countries. Not exactly western countries.

If we look at the countries in your list, then we can see that Greece is spending more on private health care. Hence you need to look at public spending (%GDP), not total spending (%GDP). And in that area only Autralia, Ireland, Spain and Korea is behind Greece. That is radically different from pensions where Greece is number 1.


Why do need a report to tell you something? Take a look at the dark blue bars in your own link, and you will see what I explained to you.

http://www.oecd.org/els/health-syste...REECE-2014.pdf

Mate - out of interest - have you ever visited an undeveloped country? I know you haven't or we wouldn't be having this conversation. Now that's quite enough, I've clearly sourced that Greek health spending is in line with the OECD average and actually well over many countries as a proportion of GDP, both in contrast to your original claims.

How do you know?

Because they subsequently published the offer to show it.

[Basil II the B.S]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-0...pect-civil-war

''According to O'Connell, "the old people want to vote for Europe cause they have a lot to lose, they have their pensions, but the younger population - they are already poor, they are already unemployed - and they don't have much to lose. Their attitude is it's going to be tough, it's already tough, and so why not just move on go back to the Drachma, and they're ok with that. Their attitude is in 5 to 10 years I'll be better off. They believe there's a lot of misinformation. They believe they're being pressured by European countries particularly Germany that are holding them to very difficult terms."


This is actually something I had pointed out the last 2 years on this forum. This is not Greece vs Germany.
This is a generational conflict and a class one.
It's the corrupt elite, and the supporters they've bought over the years with public sector jobs vs the youth.
It'll be the same in France, Italy and Spain. The youth has no jobs and debts they didn't make to pay. The youth votes for protest parties and change, the old to maintain an unsustainable status quo they have created.
The ending is written anyways. The old will die out, the youth will prevail.

[removeduser_487563287433]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33325886

Apparently talks have fired up again. God knows if it'll make a real difference - can't imagine Greeks rushing to deposit their money again.

[Camlon]

Mate - out of interest - have you ever visited an undeveloped country? I know you haven't or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I have lived in China, and I have visited Thailand, Chile, Venezuela, Brazil, Argentina, and Peru. Is that enough for you?

To give you a comparison, the average urban chinese is better off than the average greek. While Greece salaries are slightly higher, the cost of living is much lower.

Now that's quite enough, I've clearly sourced that Greek health spending is in line with the OECD average and actually well over many countries as a proportion of GDP, both in contrast to your original claims.

Dude, I am using your own source against you.

Take a look at the dark blue bars in this link.
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-syste...REECE-2014.pdf
If you do, then you will notice that among develped countries, only Autralia, Ireland, Spain and Korea is behind Greece. That is radically different from pensions, where Greece is number 1.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Source on that average urban Chinese claim pls, at your leisure.

[Nikitn]

I have looked it up. Greece, even after cuts, is spending no less than the OECD average on healthcare:

http://www.oecd.org/els/health-syste...REECE-2014.pdf

So I really want to know what form of cancer can no longer be cured publicly because of austerity.

Uhm, the Greek GDP per capita is way lower than the OECD average.. And you completely ignore the disturbance caused by the massive cuts in spending that's taken place. Spending went from 10% of 2009 Greek GDP to 9.3% of the much smaller 2014 Greek GDP.

Seriously ferrets, mocking somebody who might be unemployed + having cancer is pretty inhumane. You should be ashamed

[Camlon]

Source on that average urban Chinese claim pls, at your leisure.

Here you go.
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/busines...17383764_3.htm

In Shenzhen the average employee earns an average of 1000 euros per month, but the cost of living is much lower than Greece. Even in less important cities like Hangzhou, Guangzhou and Suzhou the average wage is about 800 euros per month.

As many chinese cities have better living standards than Greece, then Greece is not a developed country.

[Kraut]

This is actually something I had pointed out the last 2 years on this forum. This is not Greece vs Germany.
This is a generational conflict and a class one.
It's the corrupt elite, and the supporters they've bought over the years with public sector jobs vs the youth.
It'll be the same in France, Italy and Spain. The youth has no jobs and debts they didn't make to pay. The youth votes for protest parties and change, the old to maintain an unsustainable status quo they have created.

So true.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Uhm, the Greek GDP per capita is way lower than the OECD average.. And you completely ignore the disturbance caused by the massive cuts in spending that's taken place. Spending went from 10% of 2009 Greek GDP to 9.3% of the much smaller 2014 Greek GDP.

Seriously ferrets, mocking somebody who might be unemployed + having cancer is pretty inhumane. You should be ashamed

Try finding out what we were talking about.

[Ludicus]

According to O'Connell, "the old people want to vote for Europe cause they have a lot to lose

That remains to be proved.Here,the poor old people in Portugal votes against the austericide.
APRe! (Portuguese pensioners Association)
Two excellent articles, use google translator.
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they have their pensions, but the younger population - they are already poor, they are already unemployed - and they don't have much to lose.

This isn't an intergenerational conflict. Who cares about the unemployed generation? What's the percentage of unemployed people who live with their parents/grandparents?
No one lives better if your parents or grandparents live worse.The attack on pensioners is unfair and economically illiterate. It's a political strategy. Divide and conquer.

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There are no true politicians in Europe today.Just accounting officers. They don't even know the history of Europe. Larry Elliott, Guardian's economic editor,makes a good point,
http://www.theguardian.com/business/...arajevo-moment

A hundred and one years ago on Sunday, gun shots rang out in a city in southern Europe. Few at the time paid much heed to the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife as they drove through the streets of Sarajevo. Within six weeks, however,Europe was at war.

Make no mistake, the decision by Alexis Tsipras to hold a referendum on the bailout terms being demanded of his country has the potential to be a Sarajevo moment.

It will be said in response that Greece is a small, insignificant country and that the single currency has much better defences than it had at the last moment of acute trouble in the summer of 2012. Diplomats in Europe’s capitals took very much the same view in late June 1914.

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Regarding the health care in Greece,

1) Austerity and its consequences on cancer screening in Greece
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2) Greece's health crisis is worsening as a result of continued healthcare budget cuts, says the The Lancet,

Greece's health crisis: from austerity to denialism. The Lancet, 2014; 383 (9918): 748 DOI: 10.1016/S0140-6736(13)62291-6

HIV incidence has risen in injecting drug-users more than 10-fold from 2009 to 2012
Tuberculosis incidence among injecting drug users more than doubled in 2013
State funding for mental health decreased by 55% between 2011 and 2012
Major depression increased 2.5-fold between 2008 and 2011
Suicides increased by 45% between 2007 and 2011
Infant mortality jumped by 43% between 2008 and 2010
The proportion of children at risk of poverty increased from 28 in 2007 to 30% in 2011

For those unable to access the full article,

Summary

Greece's economic crisis has deepened since it was bailed out by the international community in 2010. The country underwent the sixth consecutive year of economic contraction in 2013, with its economy shrinking by 20% between 2008 and 2012, and anaemic or no growth projected for 2014. Unemployment has more than tripled, from 7·7% in 2008 to 24·3% in 2012, and long-term unemployment reached 14·4%. We review the background to the crisis, assess how austerity measures have affected the health of the Greek population and their access to public health services, and examine the political response to the mounting evidence of a Greek public health tragedy.

[Aikanár]

Gentlemen,

due to this topic being hot, I'm now going to re-open it early. Please be advised that this a personal favor, I wouldn't advise you to spoil this by falling back into old posting habits like insulting others, off-topic or disruptive postings that caused the initial closure.

Gents, please keep it civil.

Thank you for your courtesy.

Re-opened.

[paleologos]

Two wise men on the issue:

Video 1:

Video 2:

I like particularly Bill Black's assertion that the insistence on austerity is "financialy illiterate".

[fkizz]

Health care is considered an easy target, so they have kept cutting healthcare to avoid cuts in public wages and pensions.

This could have its dose of truth. I'll a muse a bit upon it.

Seriously ferrets, mocking somebody who might be unemployed + having cancer is pretty inhumane. You should be ashamed

I have to agree.

PS - Schauble said that Greece staying in the Euro even if anti-austerity-Referendum says No was a big surprise to me. For the first time in 6 years, he is on the defensive taking a few steps back for the first time.

Seems he finally found a rival at his level to face. Varoufakis and Schauble, two competent finance ministers with a bit of crazy in them. I'm curious to see how this turns out.

[Ludicus]

For those unable to access the full article,

Its also here, a short summary,

London Scholl of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine,http://www.lshtm.ac.uk/…/news/2014/greece_health_crisis.html

The authors from the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine, the University of Oxford, and the University of Cambridge say that Greece has had the largest cutbacks to the health sector seen across Europe, as the bailout package capped public expenditure at 6% of GDP. For example, from 2009 to 2011, the public hospital budget was reduced by over 25%. Greece’s public spending on health is now less than any of the other pre-2004 European Union members.

Study co-author Martin McKee, Professor of European Public Health at the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine, said: "Behind the economic statistics used to track Europe's financial crisis there lies a massive toll of human suffering that has, far too often, been ignored by our political leaders as they search for short-term fixes".

Senior author Dr David Stuckler, Honorary Research Fellow, London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine, added: “The Greek government –along with their European partners – appears to have been in denial about austerity’s severe impact on health. The cost of austerity is being borne mainly by ordinary Greek citizens, who have been affected by the largest cutbacks to the health sector seen across Europe in modern times. We hope this research will help the Greek government mount an urgently needed response to these escalating human crises.”


The study states that the Greek health-care system was in grave need of reform before the crisis, but the scale and speed of imposed change limited its capacity to respond to its population’s increased health needs.

The authors conclude: ‘The foundations for a well functioning health-care system need structures that are accountable and coordinated — not denialism. These findings suggest that the people of Greece deserve better.’

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An interesting article,

Greece in chaos.

Europe’s only far-left government is struggling to hold on to its mass support. In less than a week, it will either be triumphant or finished.

How this generation of Greek left wingers broke out of isolation is of more than academic interest. They have managed – for the first time in modern history – to form a government that defied the global finance system, and to do so with flair.

We meet at a council-run clinic where, after midday, the official GPs and psychiatrists give way to a team of volunteers. It is run this way because the austerity under the previous government means they can’t staff the clinic with paid employees. The volunteers include doctors, psychologists and qualified pharmacists, but I find them engaged in the menial task of hand-sorting donated medicines. They note the sell-by dates, count the pills and sort them.

Nineta, one of the volunteers at the clinic, tells me people are frightened, but that she is totally behind what Syriza has done. The antidote to fear is solidarity, she says.

Let's wait and see.

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This could have its dose of truth. I

Indeed, health care is always an easy target. Remember the scandal in the Portuguese Parliament, some months ago, (check the video)

I want to live,don´t let me die! Não me deixe morrer, eu quero viver

[paleologos]

I have to agree.

Who doesn't?

Seems he finally found a rival at his level to face. Varoufakis and Schauble...

"At his level"?
You don't seem to think very "highly" of Varoufakis.