Medieval Russian

[Beiss]

Here, we will have a link to the Master Source Document for the Russians,

here we will have a link to the Translation Master Document,

and here we will have a link to the Medieval Translation Master Document.
When this medieval translation document is completed, recording can begin.

This thread is for discussing the language, translation, sources of information, and eventually, the mod itself and how it can be improved. Russian is allowed in here, to simplify things for those involved, but I'd appreciate it if things that are important to, say, me, are written in English.

If your language doesn't already have thread, PM me and I'll make one, or go ahead and make one yourself, and I'll make sure that your first post contains all the necessary info. Thanks!!

[Adahn]

Hi, just want to give you a little tip regarding the topic. If you want someone who speaks medieval Russian, you must look for a cleric not military man. Old Russian in used in the lithurgy so they speak it on everyday basis.

[Kopijeger]

That would be "church slavonic", which is technically a form of old Bulgarian. Ie it is a south slavic language, rather than an east slavic one. The russians should actually speak in Old East Slavic (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_East_Slavic_language for an overview), which was the vernacular at the time.

[Knyaz Vladimir]

Language on which speaks russians, ukrainans ans byelorussians in medieval is not VERY differenf to modern, it is rather simply to understand and to speak on in (maybe, sometimes looking in old books ) And church slavic is very simple to old russian, I don't know right, but I think it is more russian then bulgarian, at least in south slavic churches is another language

[Kopijeger]

The most obvious difference between church slavonic and old east slavic (and this is also true for modern russian) is that church slavonic features metathesis (look it up) and east slavic features "полногласие" (I have no idea what it is in english, maybe something like "full vocalisation"). One example of this is "glava" (church slavonic) and "golova"(east slavonic), both of which stem from the same root. In modern russian words of church slavonic origin are often used in a more abstract meaning than its east slavic counterpart. "Golova" in modern russian means "head" as in a part of ones body, while "glava" usually means "head" as in "head of state".

The point is: that while I am far from an expert on the subject, it seems clear to me that any spoken language used by a russian faction in the game should use east slavic forms. It might be that the old russian literature mentioned under the link I gave includes words dealing with military matters of the time.

[Beiss]

Very informative, Kopijeger.

[Kopijeger]

That is the sort of thing you learn when you study russian in university. On a related note, I see that you have put down greek as a possible secondary language for the russians. May I ask why? I have never heard of greek being used as a "formal" or "courtly" language in old slavic states. Even among the clergy it would be unusual to know how to read greek. The bible and works on theology would be read in churc slavonic translation, with only specialists knowing greek. As to agents, I believe it would be most realistic if all agents except diplomats spoke old east slavic, and the diplomats speaking latin. I have come across references from the 1500s and 1600s about high level russian envoys being schooled in latin, and it is reasonable to assume that envoys to catholic nations in earlier times would also know it.

[Beiss]

Again, very informative. *off to update*

EDIT: Then what language did the priests speak? Church Slavonic or old east Slavonic?

[Kopijeger]

They would probably use church slavonic in sermons, but that is not part of the game so they should speak vernacular like the rest.

[Beiss]

Ok. No church Slavonic, then. Website updated.

[Knyaz Vladimir]

I think all russian units, also diplomats and spyes, must speak old russian, because russion missions was send not only to west, but to greece and to arabic world too, and our relations with latin countries was..mmm..not very good, so latin is not a suitable lang to diplomats.
In 18-19 cen not educated peasants spoke on lang very simple to old russian, and classical literature of 19th can be a good source for it.
Russian without foreign words and in a little bit allegoric manner, as in fairy-tales, may be a good replacement to medieval russian.

And I whant to say about one thing in MTW2. Many western games have one illness - strange russian names... A lot of russian names in MTW are funny - for example one general have a name "Zub Zaytsev" what in eng means "rabbit's tooth". Do u plan to solve this injustice?

[mac89]

Any inaccuracies in the speach will be fixed ofcourse, but general Hunchback is just a familly member am I right? You should go to Medieval Total Realism.

Btw Beiss, Im on that team btw and Im seeing if they are interested in this mod when its done.

[Beiss]

I, too, believe that (educated people at least) spoke in a rather lofty and fairy-tale like manner in the middle ages - at least more so than today. Deciding what langauge the Russians should speak when encountered by foreigners will be difficult, it seems.

What's interesting is that M2TW allows us to let any character use one language when you're playing them, and another when you don't. So clicking a Russian priest in the game when playing the Russians plays a different sample than if you click a Russian priest while playing the English, for example. We can't make them speak one language when playing the English, and another when playing the Byzantines, though. So what language should they speak? (The emissaries (priests, princesses, diplomats), that is.)

[Pyrgopolynices]

I wouldn't put it that complex, if I were you. For example, priests would speak vernacular and latin, but a cardinal would speak only in latin, since he's the clergy.

Also, portuguese priests spoke both portuguese and latin, nobles would speak portuguese but also castillian sometimes (in royal courts and other events), while portuguese people would only speak portuguese. A diplomat, however, would speak arabic, latin, castillian, portuguese and even french. The last thing a diplomat would talk to a muslim would be latin (I think) - and the next faction I want to play with is the Moors

[Knyaz Vladimir]

When diplomat went to the west he of cource need to know only latin - and in the most part of courts will understand him. But when he went to the east? I think at all east countries international language was greek - the inheritance of ellenic world, and arabs was people very educated, they reads Aristotle and other greek authors. And in Russia before Independence of chirch were many greeks and was strong influence of greek culture.
So I think that diplomats must speak on two main international medieval languages - greek and latin. Maybe, so must do princesses too (or french instead of latin for the princesses?) and priests

[Kopijeger]

My suggestion of Latin was based on the fact that most of the factions are catholic, and it therefore would be appropriate in most of the cases to hear envoys speak latin. It is true that it will not fit in all cases.

As for princesses, I have no idea as to whether east slavic princesses would be schooled in foreign languages at the time. French would surely be inappropriate though, seeing as the gallomania of the upper classes blossomed much later, only in the time of Ekaterina II I believe. I have the impression that common priests weren't particulary educated and would probably only be familiar with churc slavonic and vernacular. It is possible that bishops would be more knowledgeable, but the game only counts priests as an agent type.
I still believe it is most appropriate for them to speak in vernacular east slavic.

[Knyaz Vladimir]

Daughter of Yaroslav Mudryi had become a french queen=) and all says she was a very educated person. And many other russian princesses in pre-mongol period was sent to europe.. At that times Kiev's Russia was not lesser strong and modern than Holy Roman Empire...So i don't think that russian princesses was low educated=)

French is not a gallic language - gauls speaks on today's scottish, - and it was very popular at that times because most of europe were not long time ago conquered by Karolus. Germany in early Xth was called "the kingdom of east franks". In XVth french had lost it's popularity to german, and returned it's position in the end of XVII.. So, ALL central europe knows french at that times=)

I don't think that totally most of players will play by catholic factions, i and my friends rather more like to play for Russia, Vizantia, Turks! Make a preference to western europe factions is not right!

[Knyaz Vladimir]

ЫЫЫЫЫЫЫ

[Beiss]

I think by "gallo-" he meant "French". Regardless of whether French is Gallic or not, the region known as France today will always be haunted by its old Roman name.

Anyway, "So, ALL central europe knows french at that times=)" ... "Make a preference to western europe factions is not right!" - Make up your mind

I still don't know in which language the Russians should speak to foreigners, at least not as far as the princesses and diplomats are concerned.

[Kopijeger]

"Gallomania" is a historic term referring to a great love for all things french, even though it is inaccurate to call it that.

I did not say that all would play catholics, only that most of the factions (in purely numerical terms) are catholic, therefore latin would be wrong the in the least number of instances. Obviously this is a thorny issue and whatever you choose it will be inappropriate at least some of the time. I suggest either having them speak latin when clicked on by foreigners, or having some of the replies in latin and some in greek (this is in danger of sounding silly though).