Greetings all , just released my latest work.. ( http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile...47&searchtext= )
[non steam link]= ( http://www.mediafire.com/download/bi...1vc/_0_PP.pack )
I know most of people are intimidated by walls of texts and rather bored to read them. I strongly advise you though to spent 5-10 minutes of your time reading this 6 page long thread because it acts as a manual revealing and explaining many aspects of the mod so you can get the full out of it. Just a warning though this mod was not made to make human players life easy. It is a VERY hard challenge and needs much planning ahead. It evolves rather slow and if you are a run and gun kind of guy I don’t know if you are going to be interested in all these..What I promise you though is a textbook answer for everything created here trying to bring immersion and accuracy (an overused word indeed even from mods that include Spartan dragon rider units).
PART A NEW PHALANX
Hoplite phalanx fighting..
More than half the work is based on MoonHoplites fantastic hoplite animations..
Keep in mind that further improvements will come..
from the front with overlapping shields effect
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG][/IMG]
From the side..
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG][/IMG]
While approaching enemy (nevermind those pikes you see its is a test not included in PP..)
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG][/IMG]
Now on the next pics you can see en from behind rows fighting with overhand and underand grips (arrows) while the units stay in formation.The men in very close reach with
the eney draw swords..
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG]
[IMG]
[IMG][/IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]
From my latest test campaign..My spartan storm of spears approaching slowly and unforgiving my unfortunate Athenian enemies
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Also from a custom battle the tight spacing of hoplites from flank and while not in formation
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I forgot to mention in battle tactics that all experienced hoplites thy have the steady advance ability.This allows them to make few steps forward like pushing through.By closing you allow behind ranks a reach and more killing potential but this will tire your troops fast enough and when exhausted they get big penalties..
PART B CAMPAIGN CHANGES
I will present here my changes at first following an explanatory – friendly order but later will just follow my mods table from top to bottom so I will not forget anything.. 1)EPIC SYSTEM REVISITED for WoS. I have created in the past a mod called “Epic Campaigns” ( [url] http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=262833910[/url] ) .There I made all units available from barracks level 1.I did the same for WoS but for cities and towns. This has 2 positive side effects in my opinion. A) permits AI to recruit better quality troops and B) I always found it silly to unlock units already existent from certain buildings. I mean Picked hoplites there were not available in the beginning of Peloponnesian war?. They needed to be invented after many many turns later when you can build a barrack L4? (another thing is that usually AI seldom reaches that level of buildings). A logical question is so what happens to barracks? The answer is they are transformed to buildings lowering recruitment costs something rather useful also
2)This leads to the next chapter manpower/social system. Troops may be recruitable but they are not so easily available. I tried to simulate a manpower system for WoS. 2)MANOPWER SYSTEM
Manpower is simulated with 2 ways. Dynamic recruitment slots and dynamic recruitment time. Every province has at the beginning a rather large penalty in recruitment time. By building cities and towns you make the recruitment time drop and recruitment slots rise. Don’t lose heart when you first start a campaign and you may face recruitment time of 7 or 8 !!. By leveling up your towns and cities you will soon reach rec times of 1-2-3. (Vanilla WoS has a fixed rec time for all units 2 to 4 anyway.Here the time is dynamic and according to population) .There is also another thing more you can do to lower recruitment time fast but this is discussed later on (see edicts - military focus edict.There you can drop recruitment time by a factor of -2).As a campaign tip focus to streangthen your manpower at first to be able to recruit faster than you do at games start.After that you can focus on social system (see below..)
The same goes for recruitment slots. A small reminder though a rect time of 5 with 5 slots free is like having one unit ready every turn so don’t get intimidated by long recruitment times you just need to plan ahead.Also in history there were not magic armies everywhere. Athens after defeat in Syracuse it took over a year (4 game turns) to build a small fleet again. Sparta sent Brasidas up to Macedon and Kalkidiki with only mercenary army and not Spartans etc the examples are endless.
With the new manpower system raizing gets a meaning.You can demolish buildings simulating killing of population and the ability of the enemy to recruit will be hindered considerably.
[SPOILER]the recruitment slot / time system
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG]
Resource towns like glass for example follow the farm path while others (like gold) the path of trade cities.Also some give extra bonuses like navy recruitment cost reduction for timber , cavalry caps for horse etc..
Keep in ind that trade towns if they seem weak in comparison they give more money that other types of towns
A Small correction in the pics above about recruitment time/ slots.
about cities..
CITYQ: L1= S 1 T1
L2= S2 T2
L3=S3 T3
L4=S3 T4 A1
Finally from imperium you get only 6 armies. To unlock more armies you will need level4 cities 3) SOCIAL SYSTEM
In ancient Greeks (and in modern times also of course) there were 3 social layers.1)The lower with no land ownership. Those people contributed the least to city-state taxes but were the foundation of the democratic system. In military they usually served as supporting troops, ranged infantry or rowers in triremes. 2)The middle class the farmers-land owners. Those were the basic hoplites and the main economic “Steam engine”. 3) The rich. Those were either traders or estate owners of many fields. Those served either as cavaly,heavy hoplites (the armor cost was 100 drachmas roughly or 3 -4 months pay. Like buying a car..) or , the even richer the funded the construction of ships which they commanded. These rich people supported mainly the tax profits of the city state because on their soldiers the maximum tax weight was placed.
In game social system and manpower intermingle. When you start you have a certain amount of troops available. By following certain paths unit caps get bigger so more troops become available. Ranged troops have no caps though. There are 3 types of units linked to each caste.1) Light hoplites- poor 2)Hoplites-medium 3) elite units – cavalry – rich.
By building the town center trader in capitals or trader in towns you give power to the poor category (in democracy trading thrived and the main force in a trade fleet were the simple –no land owning men used as rowers).These buildings will unlock up to 15 (10 in cities + 5 from towns) naval cap units.
In farms we have 2 choices. The medium choice is the normal farm. Here you get an increase in hoplites unit cap and much food as to the great numbers of medium class working the fields for the state. These farms unlock a mix of 10 unit caps light and medium hoplites. As you improve the level the ratio of medium hoplites raises in comparison to the light ones.
The cattle- goat path farms and trade buildings lead to oligarchy strengthening representing big estate owners and traders. Here you unlock up to 4 units caps mixed between heavy (Spartan hoplites, picked hoplites) and medium hoplites (hoplites, perioikoi) .Also by leveling up you get more heavy units in comparison to low levels (example L2 gives 1heavy+3medium while L4 gives 4 heavy).
The amphorage maker represents the rich traders-oligarchic type of trading. You get somewhat less money but you unlock cavalry and discounts in creating fleets (rich guys rode horses or they gave money to build or upkeep a war trireme in which they were appointed captains).
4) POLITICAL SYSTEM
Also this system intermingles with social. Few notes on culture overhaul
When the new dlc landed and said that disabled culture conversion I said at last!! BUT after thinking about it I realized that if there is one time in history culture should play a role is this one..
When I say culture of course I mean political culture. The main essence of this war was as I said before the battle of classes. Rich vs poor and oligarchy vs democracy.
So in this mod culture represents just that.
Ionian culture is democratic while Dorian,Aiolian,Makedonian represents oligarchy. Akaian and other Greeks are left neutral. Cultural assimilation cannot happen in WoS unlike the main campaign. This is logical in one hand because in 30 years the war lasted the mind of the people did not change. Oligarchic cities remained oligarchic in their core even after mass killings and exterminations of opposition.They were forced to change goverments at first but after a while they return to previous politic system.A special example is Athens which even after its total defeat it reemerged as a democracy extremely fast overthrowing the 30 tyrrants appointed to them by the victorious Spartans.So when you conquer a region you will face some PO issues there. One way to address them is build similar culture buildings. A goat farm in Kos which has 100% dorian culture will appeal to local oligarchic population just like any other oligarchic-friendly building etc.
But even in a region with your own culture these battles of classes will not stop to bother you. Certain buildings will promote democracy while others oligarchy.
As I stated above in social system each unit is linked to a social class. The rich could afford expensive armor but they were few in numbers while the less privileged were lightly equipped but median class has always had much bigger numbers..
Now each building will promote or demote public order in a democratic or oligarchic environment. So if you are Athens and want many picked hoplites you will need oligarchic style buildings which in turn they can cause you PO issues. The opposite is true for Sparta when building democratic style of troops or buildings like trader to unlock many naval ships.. (Each trireme had 200 people in it.170 were the less fortunate rowers who represented lower classes. It is known that after the victory of Greeks in Salamina over the Persians the famous Plato supported that this victory that came from the sea will create big problems in the future strengthening the simple men over the aristocrats foreseeing maybe the idealistic war that followed..)
The buildings I described above have a political impact in public order.So an oligarchic building will make oligarchic portion of people happy while it will enrage the democratics.As you understand in a province 60%democratic – 40% oligarchic the impact of the same building will be different than in a region of 90-10%
Of course to counter those effects you have various tools in your hands. Enforcing cultural assimilation with troops or building the opposite effect buildings , lowering taxes ,edicts etc etc 5) UNSORTED STUFF
1) Garrisons
are streangthened and one “acropolis – heavy unit has been appointed. As a guard in every city there was a selected unit to hold its center (acroplolis). Spartans appoint a spartan hoplites and others a picked hoplite not counting in the caps used.
2)Navy
There are 3 types of naval units. Archers , javelinmen and marines. Archers are only 40 in number javs 60 and marines 80.(the fictional armored marines were in fact removed). Marines in land can form phalanx since they were hoplites.. A Trireme’s speed was affected by rower numbers and skill so a trireme carrying 40 archers has more rowers than one carrying 80 marines.So a faster trireme may be called korinthian and a slower plain trireme and this does not go to origin. Finally Athenians as more skilled in sea have always a class superior than the rest. As an example Athenian marines have Corinthian class triremes while rest of Greeks have plain triremes, Ath archers have Athenian class while rest have Corinthian class etc..
3) SANITATION
Those buildings have been changed to have a meaning. “fountains “ are the only buildings that give replenishment bonuses representing local Asclepion (Hospital sort of..) while “tanks” give increase in siege holdout time.
4) FIERCE INDEPENDENCE
It is known that in 75% of phalanx battles the winner was the one in his home territory so I gave a defense boost while in own territory both for you (small) and for AI (bigger)
5) EDICTS
I freed edicts for every province BUT every edict has pros and cons not only pros.
Bread and games (+public order , -food)
Tax (+tax, - PO)
Sell slaves (+ money ,- can be used for a short time and you lose all or many of your slaves)
Military focus ( It lowers recruitment time by2 and lowers merc recruitment costs BUT increases regular army recruitment costs by 25%)
Food- supply imports (+food – money)
6)UNITS
My aim was not to make bad ass units that differ only a little bit in stats but to make unique role units if possible. I left most vanilla units and added only a few. I will only present those that bring a strategic flavor. A)all experienced hoplites thy have the steady advance ability.This allows them to make few steps forward like pushing through.By closing you allow behind ranks a reach and more killing potential but this will tire your troops fast enough and when exhausted they get big penalties..B) Iphicratean peltasts. Late troop it is considered as Philipp’s II inspiration of pike phalanx. Iphicrates gave them double size dory and swords. There are many theories as to how they fought I made them like weak pike men with skirmishing abilities. It is only them and Agrianian javelin men that have the guerilla deploy ability (they can deploy outside the yellow area of deployment..).Iphicrateans and "Sacred Band" are recruitable only from L4 cities and towns to simulate their late appearance
Finaly a note for the history lovers. Yes I created Theban sacred band and yes it was not existent in 431 BC BUT sacred band had a “prequel” of 300 men fighting as pairs like the Spartans which existed our time.
Some of the models are based on my previous work on Historic Hellenistic World and also some of those skins (changed) they may be included in R2TR because i created these units for them before my departure from that team.Of course they may never use them as i handed out those units a long time ago and they haven't added them still.So i feel free to include some of those skins in this mod.After all i used almost the same reseach..
SPARTA Generally Spartan liked to be as much uniformed they could be.They used to put oil in their hair and shields to shine and cause terror to enemies..Not so much variation here.
About shield pattern these are the sources and the creator is BIGBADWOLF.Thank a lot dude you are a great artist.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG][/IMG]
Spartan youths
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG]Yes they indeed painted their faces with fruit and vegetable dyies..
Free Messinian Hoplites (light hoplites of Sparta)
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG][/IMG]
Perioikoi
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG][/IMG]
King's 300
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG][/IMG]
Royals
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG][/IMG]
Spartan Reserve troops
(with youths as garrisons only)
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG][/IMG]
Skiritai were the ancient Green berets.They toughest sons of B...
They were used in 2 variations Heavy
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG][/IMG]
and light (as skirmishers but with the ability to form phalanx also
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG][/IMG] you can see the Skhiritic Falcon on their shields..
Spartan hoplites early with more bronze
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]
and late more light and flexible.In this mod stats are according to aror.So a lightly equipped unit has bigger chance to hit as ore mobile BUT if it gets hit it takes much more damage..
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG][/IMG]
Spartan Marines
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG][/IMG]
ATHENS AND REST OF GREEKS
Marines
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG] Yup they were almost naked onboard..
Hoplites
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG][/IMG]
Light Hoplites
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Iphicratean Peltasts
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Picked Hoplites
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I don't know if you can see it but here are shown both 5 different variations of bronze thorxes
Selected Theban 300
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Blue was an expensive colour thats why they got their cloacks blue..
Militia hoplites (garrison unit)
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
You see they carry their money pouches as they did in real life..It is said that after defeat in Syracuse the winners recovered 4 shields full of gold coins from the routing Athenians
Allied citizen hoplites
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
This units unlocks on Imperium advance.As you increase your imperium more and more allied hoplites will become available
Theban Hoplites
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
they are in a group of 240 and in 12 lines deep to resemble oblique Phalanx.They have a cap of 5 unaffected of social buildings.I had to limit their number not to make Boiotia too OP this era..But still they are the best hoplites just below picked and Spartans.
7) STANCES
In raiding stance armies reduce siege time a bit, increase loot gained , increase slaves captured by this or other armies but lowers attach efficiency (trying to take as much enemies alive and unharmed as possible)
Forced March does not give you movement a point at all.It is used to force cultural PO in a province. You get huge bonuses but suffer from growth freeze and you are unable to replenish.
Navies had an important role in trade and sieges. Plus a strategic importance as they would move much faster than troops.
I gave at first an increase to trade tariffs from navies but this was not analogue. I mean you could have a single ship and collect vast amounts of money. I bypassed this by making zero the upkeep of navies while docked in a port. That navy is considered that is functioning as a trade fleet escort. The more ships you have the larger benefits in economy you will see. Also this represents the mandatory rotation of fleets. The ships needed to dry in land for many months to be sea worthy. So if you have fleets always on the seas it will cost you. But you can “rest” some of the fleets in ports and gain on the same time from the zero upkeep.
Also navies will have an important strategic role. Army numbers will be capped to #10.On the same time you can have 18 navy fleets. So to compensate the low number of armies you will have to rely on navies.
8) SEASONS – GODS AND OMENS
Depending on what time of year you wage war there are upkeep costs when in foreign land. Greek hoplites were farmers (except Spartans that had a professional army and that’s why they get a discount in upkeep as a factional trait) so when you go campaigning in summer or autumn will cost you much more. Of course at winter you move much less..
Finally I implemented my Gods and Omens mod here in which in every province every turn there is a random “die roll” that determines the omens and affects moral and efficiency of your troops.A small problem is that you cannot see as text the effects in your troop when you are in a foreign territory but there is a work around
If by entering an enemy territory you see an increase in your morale you got mildly good omens. If you also see an increase in attack very good omens if you don’t see any change then the odds are against you and the enemy gets bonuses..In that case if there are enemy troops in that area and you can see their stats (with an agent for example) if you see an increase in both attack and defence (a small white bar over the green bar level) then this means the omens are VERY bad for you and very good for them...
9) OCCUPY DECISIONS loot same as vanilla occupy also same as vanilla Raze will not cause PO issues because all opposition is killed.(building destruction is bad enough..) Sack will cause PO issues to the owner and probably a follow up rebellion resembling assistance to opposing parties as it was so often done in Peloponnesian war..
Some of my sources and notes..shown in my work space this morning after my coffee..
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG][/IMG]
I hope you enjoy your precious free-leisure time with this mod.
Without sucking CA and SEGA, i want to thank them for this expansion.It was a step in the right direction i think.
Finaly as a proud ember of V.V. (Vae Victis) team i would apreciate any feedback from you because if you find any of those systems above nice we can include them in VV.
Thanks in advance and Cheers.
Phalangitis.
Last edited by Phalangitis; January 14, 2015 at 05:22 PM.
I have created all necessary effects and testing confirmed they work. it is only a matter of correct balancing but i think i got this also covered. if all go according to plan in 10 days or so i will have it ready. tonight I will try to post some unit pics and very often some Campaign mechanics presentation bit by bit like the social system
Upon completion I will edit this thread with a detailed description. I will need as much feedback as you can give me post release with positive and negative experiences because if the social mechanic is proven solid we will probably incorporate this system to Vae Victis mod which I am a proud member.
And i will be very glad design the specific CAI for this. Just fill the questioner mate
On animatios i think i am as close as we can with this game.Will post some pictures ( i don't know how to record video sorry).What i have till now is hoplites fighting in 2 rows deep but as a group and not like individual men with spears on 1 on 1 duels..
I will try to post later pics and some info on social system
(i am facing a weird techincal issue i just hope it is not my graphics card..)
Some light on Social system..
In ancient greeks (and in modern times also of course) there were 3 social layers.1)The lower with no land ownership.Those people contributed the least to city-state taxes but were the foundation of the dempcratic system.In military they usually served as supproting troops,ranged infantry or rowers in trirems. 2)The middle class the farmers-land owners.Those were the basic hoplites and the main economic “Steam engine”. 3) The rich.Those were either traders or estate owners of many fields.Those served either as cavaly,heavy hoplites (the armor cost was 100 drachmas rougly or 3 -4 months pay.Like buying a car..) or the even richer the funded the construction of ships which they commanded. These rich people suppported mainly the tax profits of the city state because on their soldiers the maximum tax weight was placed.
In game social sysrem and manpower intermingle. When you start you have a certain amonut of troops available.By following certain paths unit caps get bigger so more troops become available.Ranged troops have no caps though.There are 3 types of units linked to each caste.1) Light hoplites- poor 2)Holites-medium 3) elite units – cavalry – rich.
By building the town center “dimos” building (the muses yellow line) you give power to the poor category.These people enlist in army in great numbers and those buildings increase your PO (due to a democratic approach) but give much less tax income and advanced levels cost you both in political power (aristocrats getting unhappy with too much democracy) or even reduce the eite units available
In farms we have 2 choises. The medium choise is the normal farm. Here you get an increase in hoplites unit cap and much food as to the great nubers of medium class working the fields for the state.
The cattle- goat path farms and trade buildings lead to oligarchy streangthening representing big estate owners and traders.
These buildings will increase the elite unit caps and bring you more tax income but will produce less food and much less troop numbers and give you PO penalties..So if you overdevelop your elite population you will suffer in manpower and PO (poor being oppressed).
The reason behind final Spartan downfall was just this.Too few numbers too few flexibility in politics.For them whole society was orbiting elite class-elite hoplites interests so they finally shrunk in numbers and declined
Again balance is the key and I will continue to try to make human players life difficult
Cheers.
These buildings will increase the elite unit caps and bring you more tax income but will produce less food and much less troop numbers and give you PO penalties..So if you overdevelop your elite population you will suffer in manpower and PO (poor being oppressed).
The reason behind final Spartan downfall was just this.Too few numbers too few flexibility in politics.For them whole society was orbiting elite class-elite hoplites interests so they finally shrunk in numbers and declined
The problem how this new system work for CAI i wonder ? They will continue to upgrade the military structure remember, so unless you can found a way to separate it which is i think not possible between human building and cai building recruitment and caps.
I must remind you, make hard human player is good things, as long the cai not affected in some ways, but the project itself sound like gold mine
no need to focus even there..I have tranfered all recruitment to towns and cities so from level 1 AI can have all units available.If you think about it it is historic also.In reality Spartans they didd not have to invent through buildings royal hoplites or skiritai.They had them.Or Athens dit it not had elite (picked) hoplites?So i freed recruitment from barracks.The question is what to do with barracks..I have 2 solutions in my mind.The one is a little bit complexed the other one simple and easy to iplement.I will experiment a bit and get back to you..
On animatios i think i am as close as we can with this game.Will post some pictures ( i don't know how to record video sorry).What i have till now is hoplites fighting in 2 rows deep but as a group and not like individual men with spears on 1 on 1 duels..
I will try to post later pics and some info on social system
More than half the work is based on MoonHoplites fantastic hoplite animations..
Keep in mind that further improvements will come..
from the front with overlapping shields effect
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG][/IMG]
From the side..
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG][/IMG]
While approaching enemy (nevermind those pikes you see its is a test not included in PP..)
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG][/IMG]
Now on the next pics you can see en from behind rows fighting with overhand and underand grips (arrows) while the units stay in formation.The men in very close reach with
the eney draw swords..
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG]
[IMG]
[IMG][/IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]
Last edited by Phalangitis; December 21, 2014 at 08:42 PM.
More than half the work is based on MoonHoplites fantastic hoplite animations..
Keep in mind that further improvements will come..
from the front with overlapping shields effect
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG][/IMG]
From the side..
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG][/IMG]
While approaching enemy (nevermind those pikes you see its is a test not included in PP..)
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG][/IMG]
Now on the next pics you can see en from behind rows fighting with overhand and underand grips (arrows) while the units stay in formation.The men in very close reach with
the eney draw swords..
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
[IMG]
[IMG]
[IMG][/IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]
Those animations and formation look damn awesome. I could help you with creating new units i made yesterday a unit pack for WoS and i think its sweet and would fit well in you mod
God damn. This starts to be good. Maybe you unlocked the animation of CA showing Carthagians Sacred Band in this position?
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Just separate them a bit so they keep a frontal line without clipping as in my picture. AND ADD THEM FOR ALL HOPLITES IN MAIN CAMPAIGN & UPLOAD TO STEAM!!
Now there's my kind of guy! Phalangiti (porper pronounciation! ), don't ever give up on this!!! I'll be giving you rep until the end of days! - starting today!
Peloponnesiakos Polemos (P.P.)
I don't know if you can see it but here are shown both 5 different variations of bronze thorxes 
Blue was an expensive colour thats why they got their cloacks blue.. 
You see they carry their money pouches as they did in real life..It is said that after defeat in Syracuse the winners recovered 4 shields full of gold coins from the routing Athenians 
they are in a group of 240 and in 12 lines deep to resemble oblique Phalanx.They have a cap of 5 unaffected of social buildings.I had to limit their number not to make Boiotia too OP this era..But still they are the best hoplites just below picked and Spartans. 
Reply With Quote
Originally Posted by Phalangitis
), don't ever give up on this!!! I'll be giving you rep until the end of days! - starting today!
