[Preview] New Trait System: Realism, Immersity, Diversity and Lore-Accuracy come to Westeros TW

[Elbadruhel]

If the Ironborn sack a great city they will get A LOT of money. If they sack Kings Landing... They could build another Harrenhal so they will piss in the Iron Throne xD

[Drazule]

Because sacking King's Landing wouldn't have pissed the crown off?

[Elbadruhel]

I would trying to say that they wuldnt need to keep the iron throne. Others may fight for it, and they will want to keep it: renly, stannis, jeoffrey... The ironborn, on the other hand, just will want to sack and rape, and with all the spoils, they will return to their homes with enough gold to build his own "Iron Throne" wherever they want and without thousand of enemys wanting it for them.

[Drazule]

hah, so can you just sack it, trade it to another faction, sack it, rinse and repeat for infinite gold?

[Elbadruhel]

Obviously, not. EVery time u sack a city, a lot of people die and some buildings are destroyed. So, if u sack the same settlement repeatly, everytime it will give you less and less gold. So it will useless.

And if u sack it, give it to another faction and sack it again... I think that that faction will hate u. (and if playing with humans, i can assume that no one will trust u again).

[HolyBob]

Continual sacking? Trading to different factions? This sounds oddly familiar to the actual history of the city of Rome after The Fall!

[Captain Zoran]

Looks like a really interesting development of the mod. Old lurker approval

[TDF]

Just a note on the whole religion/loyalty thing,
in ASOIAF there are two houses with different religions then their overlords, the manderlys and the blackwoods.
Both of these houses show great loyalty to them. The blackwoods are one of the last houses to carry the stark/tully cause. The manderlys are secretly conspiring for their former (old gods following) king, showing great loyalty to the Starks.

What I want to say is that some houses have a deep sense of honor inherent to them, because of family tradition. Many of the lords in the Reach don't have this sense of honor for example, believing themselves better rulers of the Reach because they are (more) directly descended from Garth Greenhand.

So I believe some families should have a big loyalty bonus in their "From ..... blood" trait.

[Elbadruhel]

Mandelry characters will have a great Moral trait, so they will get high loyalty to their lords. other families are less honorably, as you say ¡, even traitorous, so they will get really fewer loyalty.

In addition to this, not starkt neither manderlys are zealous, so religion wont affect too much. But imagine that the next lord of the North is Branndon Stark the greenseer or Rickon the mad wolf? Both of them will be really savage/northren/old gods guys, and will follow them with zeal, they could try to force all their vassals to do the same, so manderlys could get anger.

My system accepts that option, is alive, changes with every act, battle, dead, etc.

Now i point one think to you, you say "Manderlys are ploting against Bolton", "add loyalty to blood trait of the manderlys". Did you notice the joke? NOW, Bolton is their LORD and they are trying to kill or depose him, they are insidious traitors now" xD. So they are really unloyal... with bolton. My system study that and acts fine, why? bolton is cruel, mandelry kind, bolton is traitorous, manderly honorably... So, if the good Robb rules, Mandelry will be loyal, if Roose usurps the throne, Mandelry will become really unloyal.

Greetings

PD: I had some personal issues and couldnt work last weeks, im willing to end the job asap.

[Elbadruhel]

I understand u get bored with this waiting. So to make it more bearable i will post part of my last work. Tell me your feelings!! XD


Cultures.

{Ironborn}Ironborn
{Ironborn_desc}The ironborn are the natives of the Iron Islands of the west coast of Westeros. They are also known as ironmen, especially by those they raid. They are fierce men of the sea, and their naval supremacy was once unmatched, their dark legacy of raids and pillage of the hinterlands of the western and southern regions granting them, to this day, a fearsome reputation.
{Ironborn_effects_desc}+50% Bonus from Looting. -20% Farming Income. +1 Dread
{Andal_desc}The Andals are said to have originated in the Axe and then migrated to the hills of Andalos, where legend tells that they were visited by the incarnations of the Seven who adviced them to invade Westeros. After several hundred years of war, the Andals conquered the six southern kingdoms of the First Men and created their own. The Andals brought the Faith of the Seven to Westeros and with it the warrior tradition of the knight.
{Riverlander}Riverlander
{Riverlander_effects_desc}+20% Farming Income. +20% Trading.
{Westernlander}Westernlander
{Westernlander_effects_desc}-10% Construction Costs. +20% Mining Income. +1 Commanding Infantry.
{Reachmen}Reachmen
{Reachmen_effects_desc}+20% Farming Income. +1 Commanding Cavalry. +1 Chivalry
{Stormlander}Stormlander
{Stormlander_effects_desc}-10% Training Units Costs. -10% Construction Costs. +2 Commanding Infantry.
{Crownlander}Crownlander
{Crownlander_effects_desc}+20% Tax Income. -10% Training Units Costs. +1 Loyalty.
{Valemen}Valemen
{Valemen_effects_desc}+20% Farming Income. +1 Commanding Cavalry. +1 Chivalry
{Firstmen_desc}The First Men were the culture of humans who first set foot on Westeros. They came from Essos by crossing the land bridge called the Arm of Dorne and warred upon the children of the forest. After the peace agreement, called the Pact, the First Men set aside their previous religion to worship the children's nature gods. The influence of the First Men is still felt in Westeros, most strongly in the North.
{Northmen}Firstmen
{Northmen_effects_desc}+10% Movement Points. + 2 Hitpoints. +1 Command Defending.
{Old_Andal}Old Andal
{Old_Andal_effects_desc}+10% Farming Income. +1 Commanding Cavalry. +1 Loyalty. +1 Chivalry
{Crannogmen}Crannogmen
{Crannogmen_effects_desc}+10% Line of Sight. +10% Movement Points. +1 Command at Night. +1 Command in Ambush.
{Clansmen}Clansmen
{Clansmen_effects_desc}+1 Hitpoints. +1 Commanding Infantry. +1 Troop Morale. +1 Command Attacking.
{Rhoynar_desc}The Rhoynar lived in city-states along the river Rhoyne. The Valyrian Freehold's expansion threatened to overtake them so after Prince Garin defeat trying to defeat them, a warrior-queen named Nymeria led the surviving Rhoynar in ten thousand ships to finally land in Dorne where she married Mors Martell of Sunspear, and helped him consolidate Dorne under his rule. The Rhoynar have lived and intermingled with the Dornish since that time.
{Salt_Rhoynar}Salt Dornish
{Salt_Rhoynar_effects_desc}+20% Trading Income. +0.5% Pop Growth. +5% Public Order. +1 Fertility
{Sand_Rhoynar}Sand Dornish
{Sand_Rhoynar_effects_desc}+10% Trading Income. +10% Movement Points. + 1 Hitpoints. +1 Fertility
{Stone_Rhoynar}Stone Dornish
{Stone_Rhoynar_effects_desc}+10% Trading Income. +1 Command Defending. +1 Commanding Infantry. +1 Fertility



Religion

{Drownedgod}Follower of the Drowned God
{Drownedgod_desc}the Drowned God is a harsh deity and goes hand in hand with the Old Way. It is said the Drowned God made the ironborn to reave and rape, to carve out kingdoms and to make their names known in fire and blood and song. The Drowned God himself is believed to have brought flame from the sea and sailed the world with fire and sword. Drowning and resurrection feature prominently in the prayers and rituals of the Drowned God religion.
{Drownedgod_effects_desc}+50% Bonus from Looting. -20% Farming Income. +1 Dread
{Seven}Follower of the Faith of the Seven
{Seven_desc}The Faith of the Seven is the dominant religion of the Seven Kingdoms, and is often simply referred to as the Faith. Has a great many moral teachings. It frowns on gambling, preaches against bastardy, and curses things like incest and kinslaying. The number seven is considered holy to the Faith. In order to become a knight, a squire must spend a nightlong vigil in a sept and become anointed in the name of the Seven. For this reason, there are few knights in areas where the Faith is not kept, such as the North.
{Seven_effects_desc}+1.5% Pop Growth. +15% Public Order. +1 Chivalry
{Oldgods}Follower of the Old Gods
{Oldgods_desc}Weirwood trees with faces carved into them, called heart trees, are considered sacred. Prayer, oaths, and marriages are often performed in the presence of a heart tree. The faces were carved into the weirwoods by the children of the forest, but their meaning or purpose is not completely understood by humans. Once all noble houses had a godswood with a heart tree in its centre. It is said that the old gods only have power where the heart tree faces can see
{Oldgods_effects_desc}+5% Public Order. +10% Movement Points. +10% Line of Sight. +1 Hitpoints.
{Rhllor}Follower of R´hllor
{Rhllor_desc}The religion is based on a dualistic, manichean view of the world: R'hllor, the god of light, heat, and life, and R'hllor's antithesis the Great Other, the god of ice and death.[2] They are locked in an eternal struggle over the fate of the world; a struggle that, according the ancient prophecies from the books of Asshai, will only end when Azor Ahai, the messianic figure, returns wielding a flaming sword called Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and raises dragons from stone.
{Rhllor_effects_desc}+2 Troop Morale. -10% Training Units Cost. +1 Command.

I want Reviews! xD

Have a nice weekend. More news will come soon

Edit: Updated first post with new information.

[LuckyPistol]

Awesome work! Though I feel the farming penalty is a bit too high, especially since it look likes it's being added to the Drowned God effects as well.

Other than that it all seems to fit quite well +rep

[Elbadruhel]

Farming income in an ironborn castle... 500? -40% from bonuses = 300 gold. But if your general is... normal int 4 he has +10% farming and if farmer even more.

Ok. Lets think he is stupid xD. from 500 gold to 300 gold. Imagine you have 6 castles. You loose with this traits and no more, from 500x6 to 300x6... A lost of 1.200 gold.

Now, an ironborn general with his 100% Looting bonus, sacks Kings Landing. He would have get... 12.000 gold? even more? 24.000? Now he has 100% looting bonus. He wins... 12.000 gold? xD

With this simple calculation, you see that if you have aprox 6 castles, the ironborn have 10 turns to sack a big city and it will be worthy. But ingame, your generals will have some other bonuses that will improve more your farming/trading/taxing incomes. And indeed, the iron islands have POOR harvest so you will lose really low money. But if you start a raze in the coasts... You will swim in gold.

This traits try to give you all a new game experience depending on wich faction do you choose. Some will have some good points and others the opposite. This will make very campaign wich every faction, different.

With greyjoys you will try to sail and raid and sack all the coasts in Westeros (like they did in lore) to get the most profit from your traits. And with Tyrells you will try to keep the land calmed, farmlands of the reach if possibly and smash your enemies with your cavalry. With Lannisters? Keep the mines of the westernlands and defend them with your infantry in the mountain pass. With Starks? Ambush everybody in the neck and kill them all, and if someone manages to move forward, use your strenght and hard northrens to move faster in the north to ambush and avenge. And so on.

[Swarbs]

Tbh I think there could be more of a difference between the Ironborn and Drowned God traits. I appreciate that the ironborn will be the only followers of the drowned god, but then there could still be some differences between them, particularly to include the role of salt water and the sea in the drowned god religion. I would suggest something like:

{Ironborn_effects_desc}+100% Bonus from Looting. -40% Farming Income. +1 Dread

{Drownedgod_effects_desc}+2% religious conversion from ports. +2 experience for ships. +1 experience for melee units from port

That way you reflect the importance of the sea for the drowned god, including the role of salt water in converting people (coastal settlements get the bonusfrom ports) and of the sea in bringing good quality ironborn troops to coastal settlements when recruited.

[Elbadruhel]

What means Tbh?

The religion trait of a general cant affect the experience/bonus of the buildings/units recruited in the city he is.

Anyway, i understand your point about sea and... I can tell you: Dont worry. Im working in a really cool new feature for the mod, helped by Hannibal ex Machina.

This will give ironborn power near the sea. As you say. But also to norhtrens in the north, dornishmen in dorne, reachmen in flatlands, westerlanders in mountains... REALLY REALLY COOL. If i can manage to develop it 100%.

So ironborn and drowned god characters will have his 50% looting, -20% farming +1 dread x2 traits. And then, due to they have those traits they will get a bonus when they are in a coastal province (command, moral bonus for soldiers, the option for obtaining reinforcements, even more looting due to boats to carry the spoils...). BUT if they are in a too inner province, they will be weaker, so they will have a malus. "Theon, we have to leave winterfell and return to the coast, we cant handle it, we are stronger near the sea".

Summarizing. I understand your point. I have the same idea. Ironborn = power at sea. And im working on making it work ingame.

Nowadays my ideas are:

Firstmen culture (northmen, old andal, crannogmen and clansmen): Bonus in the North. Neutral in central Westeros. Malus in Dorne.
Rhoynar culture (salt dornish, sand dornish and stone dornish): Bonus in Dorne. Neutral in central Westeros. Malus in the North.
Cavalry factions (riverlander, crownlander and reachmen): Bonus in Flatlands. Neutral in normal regions. Malus in rough regions (mountains and woodlands).
Infantry factions (westernlander, valemen and stormlander): Bonus in rough regions (mountains and woodlands). Neutral in normal regions. Malus in flatlands.

Tell me your feelings.

In addition to this. I can say you that the "religion bonus convert from ports" has no sense. Because we have NO RELIGION in settlements. They have allegiance to a faction or another. Our mod will be set in some years scheme. Not hundreds of years. And we know that in Westeros people needs years to change their faith (andal vs firstmen or firstmen vs child of the forest). So, we can assume, that no body will swap their religion.

But, ey! We see Stannis burning septs and godswoods. And this makes people angry. How would you use it? Well. Hannibal had a great idea. Set religion upset if the general of a region has different religion than "the region". We will set a religion for every region according to lore and it will never change. But if you have different faith and conquers it, people will be dissapointed. And the "agresive religions" like Rhllor will upset more people, while the peaceful like andals will have nearly 0 malus.

[Swarbs]

What means Tbh?

The religion trait of a general cant affect the experience/bonus of the buildings/units recruited in the city he is.

Anyway, i understand your point about sea and... I can tell you: Dont worry. Im working in a really cool new feature for the mod, helped by Hannibal ex Machina.

This will give ironborn power near the sea. As you say. But also to norhtrens in the north, dornishmen in dorne, reachmen in flatlands, westerlanders in mountains... REALLY REALLY COOL. If i can manage to develop it 100%.

So ironborn and drowned god characters will have his 50% looting, -20% farming +1 dread x2 traits. And then, due to they have those traits they will get a bonus when they are in a coastal province (command, moral bonus for soldiers, the option for obtaining reinforcements, even more looting due to boats to carry the spoils...). BUT if they are in a too inner province, they will be weaker, so they will have a malus. "Theon, we have to leave winterfell and return to the coast, we cant handle it, we are stronger near the sea".

Summarizing. I understand your point. I have the same idea. Ironborn = power at sea. And im working on making it work ingame.

Nowadays my ideas are:

Firstmen culture (northmen, old andal, crannogmen and clansmen): Bonus in the North. Neutral in central Westeros. Malus in Dorne.
Rhoynar culture (salt dornish, sand dornish and stone dornish): Bonus in Dorne. Neutral in central Westeros. Malus in the North.
Cavalry factions (riverlander, crownlander and reachmen): Bonus in Flatlands. Neutral in normal regions. Malus in rough regions (mountains and woodlands).
Infantry factions (westernlander, valemen and stormlander): Bonus in rough regions (mountains and woodlands). Neutral in normal regions. Malus in flatlands.

Tell me your feelings.

In addition to this. I can say you that the "religion bonus convert from ports" has no sense. Because we have NO RELIGION in settlements. They have allegiance to a faction or another. Our mod will be set in some years scheme. Not hundreds of years. And we know that in Westeros people needs years to change their faith (andal vs firstmen or firstmen vs child of the forest). So, we can assume, that no body will swap their religion.

But, ey! We see Stannis burning septs and godswoods. And this makes people angry. How would you use it? Well. Hannibal had a great idea. Set religion upset if the general of a region has different religion than "the region". We will set a religion for every region according to lore and it will never change. But if you have different faith and conquers it, people will be dissapointed. And the "agresive religions" like Rhllor will upset more people, while the peaceful like andals will have nearly 0 malus.

Tbh = to be honest.

Ok, I assumed there would be some religion in the settlements and didn't realise the religious traits would be for generals.

I don't entirely agree with the statement that "in Westeros people needs years to change their faith", as we have already seen R'hllor gain huge acceptance amongst the Queen's Men and Brotherhood without Banners in a short space of time. So I think there should be some religious changes over time, even if they are very slow. Perhaps they should also be driven by characters, rather than buildings, if this is possible, to reflect the influence of important characters like Thoros and Melisandre in winning people over to their side through displays of power.

I would add the malus for conquest, but over time have a settlement which is governed by a general of one religion, particularly one with strong religious traits or followers and aided by supporting characters, switch religion to favour that of the conqueror. Particularly if the region is still held for a long time, and thus the new god(s) bring peace and protection where the old gods failed.

[HannibalExMachina]

i think what elba wanted to say is: we wouldnt see people in westeros converting en masse, in a short span of time, or anywhere in the real world for that matter, that never happens. bwb is a small group, who also had the benefit of actualing seeing jesus raise lazarus, thats kind of a big deal. and stannis' conversion influenced many of his followers (again a small group), but someone who doesnt follow him already and doesnt reap any benefits isnt likely to convert so easily - unless you show them some solid miracles.

[Elbadruhel]

As Hannibal says:
- Some queensmen are follower of rhllor due to melisandre. Some QUEENSMEN. What means this? Part of the knights of Stannis. Not his whole army. And even then, his army is a small part of his vassals. All the common folk remains loyal to their gods.
- The same with BwB. They are a SMALL group of bandits, not a country. The riverlanders follows the 7 and some of them support the BwB because they defend the land against the pillagers. But the common folk or nobility of the riverlands havent swap their religion to Rhllor.

[Swarbs]

I know the QM and BwB are not major groups, but they do show the potential for Westerori to switch religion based on what they see and can gain from doing so.

I think if Stannis succeeded in conquering a decent chunk of Westeros in the name of R'hllor and held it for any great period of time then that would begin to swing the common folk to his cause. If nothing else because he would burn the septs, kill the septons and ensure that only R'hllor's teaching was allowed. This may not cause conversion, but it would likely cause those truly devoted to the seven to flee to other regions not held by Stannis, whilst those who were swayed by his religion would flee the other way, thus converting the province as a whole.

Ultimately the books are always pretty clear that people cling to the seven due to the perceived protection they offer, and the presence of septons providing healing and other support to the population rather than any genuine religious beliefs or strong adherence to the mythology (excepting groups like the Sparrows of course). If that protection failed and the septons were gone, replaced by fire temples and priests providing similar services, I think that would have an impact on the population's beliefs over the long term.

I guess to my mind not having the ability to convert any religion, in any province, after any length of time, no matter what you do, would miss out a massive component of the ASOIAF mythology and reduce the overall levels of immersion we could gain from a trait system. But that is just my opinion.

[Elbadruhel]

You talk about conversion because "instead of septs teaching kids about the faith of the seven, there will be priests teaching kids about rhllor". Or "holding a region a great period of time". But it looks like you have forgot that the mod has a really slow timescale. To have a new kid born, it will pass... 180 turns? Then i think you will undersant why u cant change a province religion. Because the game dont covers so huge timeline

On the other hand, we are studying to give the option for a character to swap his religion to other one. Specially from 7th to Rhllor. Wich is fine. Not all the country converts, but some men do it.

[Swarbs]

No, I was talking about people converting or migrating, which happens in a much smaller timescale. Like the mass migration of people from the riverlands to Kings Landing during the WOT5K. That would, in my opinion, make it easier for the Riverlands to convert to R'hllor or the Drowned God if the region was then seized and held by an organised force with their own religious bodies. It would only take a few years in my opinion, given the propensity for those two factions to burn / drown anyone who opposes them.

But ultimately it's your mod and your choice of the mechanics, I just provide my opinions!