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Thread: Gun Rights Are Favored Over Gun Control For First Time In 20 Years, Poll Finds

  1. #241

    Default Re: Gun Rights Are Favored Over Gun Control For First Time In 20 Years, Poll Finds

    1. It only talks about banning guns and doesn't recognize a ton of other regulation and control options.

    2. It only takes a very basic comparison of Nation state level comparisons and doesn't account for confounding variables like socio-economic level and culture.

    3. It also doesn't take into account facts like Switzerland and Norway have a huge percentage of their populations (far more than the US) as former military due to conscription and thus the majority of those populations have two years or more of military training. Also more of those guns are rifles and shotguns than handguns.

    Essentially that single article comes nowhere near countering all the evidence we actually have available:

    Franklin Zimring provided systematic evidence that theweapon type matters independent of motivation. Zimring drew on crime data
    from Chicago to show that case-fatality rates in gun attacks are a multiple of
    those in knife attacks, despite the fact that the circumstances are generally similar.
    Many criminal assailants were inebriated at the time and thus unlikely to
    be acting in a calculating fashion, and few attackers administered more than one
    or two wounds to the victim—even in fatal cases. Similarly, robberies are far
    more likely to result in the victim’s death if a gun is involved, even though gun
    robbers are less likely to attack their victim than those armed with another
    weapon.24 Inflicting a fatal wound with a gun requires less effort, determination,
    involvement, or strength than with other common weapons.
    Perhaps the question of primary interest to individual citizens is whether
    guns make the owners and members of their household more or less safe. One
    type of evidence in support of the claim that guns increase the risk of homicide
    victimization comes from comparing gun ownership rates of homicide
    victims with those of neighbors who share similar sociodemographic characteristics.(Kellerman 1993 and others)
    Some of the problems with cross-section studies can be overcome by using
    panel data—repeated cross-sections of city, county, or state data measured at
    multiple points in time—to compare changes in gun ownership with changes in
    crime. Compared with Massachusetts, the state of Mississippi may have much
    higher homicide rates year after year for reasons that cannot be fully explained
    by standard sociodemographic or other variables. But by comparing changes
    across areas we implicitly control for any unmeasured differences across areas
    that are relatively fixed over time, such as a “Southern culture of violence.”42 The
    reverse causation problem, in which crime may be both cause and effect of gun
    ownership, can be at least partially addressed within this “fixed effects” frame-work by relating changes in gun ownership this year with changes in crime rates next year.
    The best available evidence on the relationship between gun prevalence and
    crime comes from a recent paper by Mark Duggan, which reports that more
    guns lead to more homicides. Duggan’s measure of local gun ownership
    rates—gun magazine subscriptions per capita—is highly correlated with surveybased
    estimates of gun ownership. He finds that a 10 percent increase in gun
    prevalence in one year increases a county or state’s homicide rate the next year
    by around 2 percent but has little effect on other types of crime. This result accords
    with the belief that while guns do not contribute much to the overall volume
    of crime, they do make it more lethal.
    Reuter and Mouzos report that Australia’s policy resulted in the destructionof a large percentage of prohibited long guns, reducing the nation’s overall stock of guns by as much as 20 percent. The average homicide rate has been lower in
    the years following the initiation of the ban (1997–2001) than during the five
    years before, and the proportion of homicides with guns has continued a secular
    decline since the ban. Given the very small numbers involved (about fifty gun
    homicides a year) it is difficult to reach any firm conclusions about the effects of
    the ban. The trends are compatible with a conclusion that the ban and buyback
    saved lives, but that conclusion cannot be offered with great confidence. But there
    is absolutely no evidence that the Australian policy innovations had a perverse
    effect, as has sometimes been claimed.
    In chapter 3 we move beyond crude international comparisons and examine
    how burglary patterns within the United States relate to the prevalence of gun
    ownership. We use both National Crime Victimization Survey data on residential burglary and the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports panel data on burglaries reported to the police. Using a variety of statistical methods to deal with the problems
    of confounding variables and reverse causation, we conclude that an increase
    in gun prevalence has no effect on the likelihood that a residential burglary involves
    an occupied dwelling (a “hot” burglary), while it appears to have, if anything,
    a positive effect on the overall rate of residential burglary. Our tentative
    explanation for that surprising conclusion is that guns are valuable loot and that
    gun-rich communities are especially profitable to burglars.
    Some licensed gun dealers are willing accomplices to gun trafficking or straw
    purchases, or are selling to criminals off the books.62One ATF investigation of the
    relatively small subset of dealers who account for the original retail sale of most
    crime guns submitted for tracing found that 75 percent were in violation of at least
    one federal regulation. Although most of these were for minor violations, 20 percent
    of dealers in this sample were recommended for license revocation.
    http://home.uchicago.edu/ludwigj/pap...n_Chapter1.pdf

    “Our analysis shows that having access to firearms is a significant risk factor for men committing suicide and for women being victims of homicide,” saidAndrew Anglemyer, PhD, MPH, an expert in study design and data analytics in Clinical Pharmacy and Global Health Sciences at UCSF, who is also a U.S. Army veteran. “Since empirical data suggest that most victims of homicide know their assailants, the higher risk for women strongly indicates domestic violence.”
    Of the 15 studies included in the meta-analysis, the only one that did not find a statistically meaningful increase in the odds of death associated with access to firearms was from New Zealand, where guns are much less available than they are in the United States. And even that study did find an increase, although not a statistically significant one


    http://www.ucsf.edu/news/2014/01/111...icide-homicide
    Last edited by chilon; January 12, 2015 at 02:00 PM.
    "Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs," I said. "We have a protractor."

    Under Patronage of: Captain Blackadder

  2. #242

    Default Re: Gun Rights Are Favored Over Gun Control For First Time In 20 Years, Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by chilon View Post
    So your argument is the ATF has not been efficient so lets just decrease regulations and control? That makes no sense especially with the data and statistics we have available to us.

    Clearly less regulation and control is not the answer. Yea lets go for less control

    http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1...migrant-crisis
    You're the one playing the ignoring data and numbers that you don't agree with game. So I'm not going to bother suffering any more responses from you on the matter unless you make a shift in your discussion standards.
    Heir to Noble Savage in the Imperial House of Wilpuri

  3. #243

    Default Re: Gun Rights Are Favored Over Gun Control For First Time In 20 Years, Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by chilon View Post
    1. It only talks about banning guns and doesn't recognize a ton of other regulation and control options.

    2. It only takes a very basic comparison of Nation state level comparisons and doesn't account for confounding variables like socio-economic level and culture.

    3. It also doesn't take into account facts like Switzerland and Norway have a huge percentage of their populations (far more than the US) as former military due to conscription and thus the majority of those populations have two years or more of military training. Also more of those guns are rifles and shotguns than handguns.

    Essentially that single article comes nowhere near countering all the evidence we actually have available:















    http://home.uchicago.edu/ludwigj/pap...n_Chapter1.pdf



    [/FONT][/COLOR]

    http://www.ucsf.edu/news/2014/01/111...icide-homicide
    I look at one of the referenaces on concealed carry in your links (with 20 year old data) and then I google it and this is the second it for ...

    The Impact of Concealed-Carry Laws
    The first is...

    The chapter of the report you linked...

    http://www.brookings.edu/press/books...ggunpolicy.pdf

    The second is this...

    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...51.2013.854294

    These results suggest that restrictive concealed weapons laws may cause an increase in gun-related murders at the state level. The results of this study are consistent with some prior research in this area, most notably Lott and Mustard (1997).
    Soooo...



    You want to take away rights, not me, and at best one could argue there data is conflicting. The logical thing is you don't limit rights in that case.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  4. #244

    Default Re: Gun Rights Are Favored Over Gun Control For First Time In 20 Years, Poll Finds

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Piett View Post
    You're the one playing the ignoring data and numbers that you don't agree with game. So I'm not going to bother suffering any more responses from you on the matter unless you make a shift in your discussion standards.
    Both of your replies have been fallacies and then ad hominem. If you don't want to make legitimate arguments supported by facts then go right ahead and twist things to suit whatever your agenda is.

    Your argument literally seems to be the ATF is not efficient so lets have less regulation. If that's not your argument then feel free to rehrase it. As it is you seem to like making un-supported statements and talking rather than having a legit discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    You want to take away rights, not me, and at best one could argue there data is conflicting. The logical thing is you don't limit rights in that case.
    How do I want to "take away rights" from you? Did I even mention banning guns? No. So take that strawman and shove it back up your arse where you got it.

    At best the data shows that guns increase lethality in homicides and suicides. At worst the data is not "beyond a reasonable doubt". In no way does the data support your opinion as pointed out about Australia.
    Last edited by chilon; January 12, 2015 at 11:38 PM.
    "Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs," I said. "We have a protractor."

    Under Patronage of: Captain Blackadder

  5. #245

    Default Re: Gun Rights Are Favored Over Gun Control For First Time In 20 Years, Poll Finds

    First we had that woman in the supermarket - now this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/m...er-police-say/
    Whilst the Pro-Gun lobby could rightly point out - who leaves a gun just lying around, it stands to reason that if there were less guns in circulation, events like this would rarely happen. Whereas in the US you have a woman shot by her baby in a supermarket, the child given a Uzi who accidentally shot her instructor, and now this. It's madness.
    When Adam delved and Eve span, who was then the gentleman?

    - John Ball (1381)

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