The Great War Youtube series discussion thread [Week 77 - The Invasion of Montenegro]

[The Despondent Mind]

How was Austro Hungary still standing even up until war, is beyond me. It seems like the Empire was always incompetent and never won any wars (alone) except against vastly weaker opponents. The fact they lasted until 1918 is just...

[Arto]

Are you talking about AH or the post-Napoleonic Austrian Empire? Yeah, it's strange.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I believe he means how they even made it to 1914 in the first place. Which is a good point based on their military and administrative records. I think the only enemy they managed to beat was Italy in 1849 and in 1866. Even in the First World War Admiral Horthy managed to defeat the Italian fleet at Otranto (despite the other victories against Italy on land having lots to do with Germany).
Austria's industry and infrastructure was pretty bad too. The only real industrial zones were Austria and Bohemia anyhow and everyone else was far too rural.
But I'm mostly surprised that Austria-Hungary didn't collapse before 1918. Like you would think that if Italy upped their game and totally wrecked the Adriatic then Austria-Hungary might be in for a total loss in that front.

[The Despondent Mind]

I was thinking the Austrian Empire in general, but yeah since Napoleon they seemed like Europe's lamest empire. They are like that bully that only participates in a fight when he has his big brother/friend(s) around otherwise he's hopelessly incompetent.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Honestly I think the only reason they didn't collapse in say 1866 or whatever was because no one wanted them gone. It wasn't in Russia's interest to let their own ally collapse and get replaced by someone else. In 1848 when the Hungarians revolted the Russians intervened on Austria's side.

Neither Germany nor France wanted Austria to disappear either since it would affect the balance of power in the area. Only Italy and other smaller nations like Serbia actually wanted to grab pieces from the Austro-Hungarian corpse. Britain interestingly enough appears to be more or less indifferent until they started to worry about the balance of power in the Balkans.

[Arto]

A Thursday has passed, which means we have a new episode! This time we have a cameo of You-Know-Who, here's a letter he wrote to his landlord:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

“We are still in our old positions, and keep annoying the English and the French,” he writes in a letter. “The weather is miserable and we often spend days on end knee-deep in water and, what is more, under heavy fire. We are greatly looking forward to a brief respite.“Let’s hope that soon afterwards, the whole front will start moving forward. Things can’t go on like this forever.”

[Arto]

Thursday is awesomeday with the new episode from The Great War. This time there's another cameo of a person who's going to play a bigger part in the next World War.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A young Erwin Rommel.

Serving in the Argonne in January, 1915, Lt. Rommel crawled under the wire leading an attack on four French blockhouses, only to realize after he had made it through that no one had followed him. Crawling back, he told his platoon commander to return with him, or he would shoot him immediately. His men this time followed under the wire and captured the positions successfully, earning Rommel the Iron Cross, First Class. He would go on to earn a Second Class, as well as the very coveted Blue Max, before the war was over.

[Arto]

A new Sunday a new ep- what? Yeah, I'm on the late side this week. This week, Germany is playing two new cards to gain a decisive advantage. One is going to see its' future in a large scale on the Western Front and the other is going to wake the sleeping giant.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Arto]

Hello Thursday! This week we have 3 great offensives which weren't actually great at all.

Favourite YT comment so far of the series:

Von Hindengurg's macho-man caricature @ 3:28—but a few seconds later, it shows him descending steps waddling like a fat duck. (No wonder they named a blimp after him.) Still, he proved himself a brilliant military strategist and tactician—surpassed only by the psychologically strained von Ludendorff. Eventually, the "terrible twins" used the power at their command to disastrous effect. Their blunders cost more than either imagined possible. I wonder which one was the madder warlord.
In contrast, the individual soldiers stories, told and untold, are all tragic beyond belief.
The horror....

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Arto]

This week the Singapore Mutiny:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[hellheaven1987]

Wait, so this week is about Jihad in WWI?

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Jihad? No. I think it was Hindu and Sikh soldiers rising up.
What exactly are you talking about? Cause I just saw the video and the only Muslims he talked about were the retreating Ottomans from Suez.

[hellheaven1987]

Jihad? No. I think it was Hindu and Sikh soldiers rising up.

Ya, I just finish the video; kindly disappoint it has so little information about Singapore Mutiny and mispresent it as "fatigue mutiny" like those happened in 1917.

[Arto]

He did mention a grand Indian conspiracy against the British.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

If India defeated Britain and declared independence in say 1915 that would be one of the most alternate histories ever. I wonder if they would just collapse into anarchy or split off into multiple states. I doubt they could stay one country, even our modern India split into three states (Pakistan, India and Bangladesh).

[Arto]

This week, this British and French ships enter the Dardanelles for the first time. And Conrad von Hotzendorf doesn't give a about your opinion.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Conrad seriously needs to cooperate with his German allies. This would have been a non issue though if Conrad had just sent the required men and supplies to Galicia at the start of the war, as he agreed to do with the Germans. The issue I find with the Carpathian offensives how the hell do they supply their army across the Carpathians? Wouldn't you have to send the troops and supplies through Poland to Galicia rather than straight across the Carpathian mountains? I admit though that Conrad isn't the worst strategist or the worst commander the Austrians had, cause honestly who the hell else could take the job (Svetozar Boroevic... yeah I can't name any others)?

Pretty much every country in the war had an inadequate commander to start off with. Joffre wasn't too bad but not right for the job given the circumstances, Luigi Cadorna was terrible, Enver Pasha was too, Conrad proved a failure, John French was kicked in the first year, Helmuth von Moltke was too weak and passive (albeit not too bad either but his altering of certain aspects of the Schlieffen Plan made victory in 1914 impossible) and Russia... yeah they had nobody, it was a mosh pit of chaos in their command structure until the Tsar took over the war.

But also why are the Germans attacking from East Prussia? They should be concentrating on taking Warsaw so that they can support those other operations all across the front, a victory at Warsaw could potentially lead to the Russians being forced to give up their siege at Przemysil or being surrounded there if the Germans follow up with an adequate offensive after that. Curse you Falkenhayn and your pointless head long charges on the Western Front! Also taking Warsaw could lead to securing the Polish transportation networks and hence more movement of troops and supplies to East Prussia or Galicia if need be. The Vistula river would also be secured and the possibility of supplying the Germans from the Baltic via Danzig.

Here's the major question though: there are some groups in WW1 circles which say that Falkenhayn was right and that Germany could not win the war. Others say that Ludendorff was correct and that knocking Russia out of the war sooner would have led to a German victory. Which one do you hold to be true?
Honestly I think that Falkenhayn was right in that a victory in the Western Front would have been impossible given the situation. But his bleed them white strategy is total bull crap. Had Germany knocked out Russia and had Hindenburg/Ludendorff been giving priority then at the very least Warsaw would have been taken in 1915.
The Germans could have done larger and better offensives and then follow up with mopping up operations rather than pausing constantly to catch their breaths and perhaps never even giving the Russians a chance to collectively retreat from Poland and rebuild a defensive line. Perhaps the Russians would have given up before 1917 and the Germans could have thrown those freed up divisions to the Western Front. What say you?

[DarthShizNit]

Conrad seriously needs to cooperate with his German allies. This would have been a non issue though if Conrad had just sent the required men and supplies to Galicia at the start of the war, as he agreed to do with the Germans. The issue I find with the Carpathian offensives how the hell do they supply their army across the Carpathians? Wouldn't you have to send the troops and supplies through Poland to Galicia rather than straight across the Carpathian mountains? I admit though that Conrad isn't the worst strategist or the worst commander the Austrians had, cause honestly who the hell else could take the job (Svetozar Boroevic... yeah I can't name any others)?

To be fair the Germans didn't exactly ever communicate with the Austrians either. Basically the situation between the two was just about as bad as it could get. And Conrad is possibly the worst general of the war in a war full of bad generals IMO, that said there are lots of people - including very good historians - who view him as one of the best strategists of the war and claim he was simply let down by a bad army. I think he was a dumbass with his head so far up his strategically gifted ass he couldn't ever appreciate the situation on the ground.

Pretty much every country in the war had an inadequate commander to start off with. Joffre wasn't too bad but not right for the job given the circumstances, Luigi Cadorna was terrible, Enver Pasha was too, Conrad proved a failure, John French was kicked in the first year, Helmuth von Moltke was too weak and passive (albeit not too bad either but his altering of certain aspects of the Schlieffen Plan made victory in 1914 impossible) and Russia... yeah they had nobody, it was a mosh pit of chaos in their command structure until the Tsar took over the war.

Joffre is widely recognized as the best man for the job in the first few crucial months of the war, but after that he should have been phased out.

But also why are the Germans attacking from East Prussia? They should be concentrating on taking Warsaw so that they can support those other operations all across the front, a victory at Warsaw could potentially lead to the Russians being forced to give up their siege at Przemysil or being surrounded there if the Germans follow up with an adequate offensive after that. Curse you Falkenhayn and your pointless head long charges on the Western Front! Also taking Warsaw could lead to securing the Polish transportation networks and hence more movement of troops and supplies to East Prussia or Galicia if need be. The Vistula river would also be secured and the possibility of supplying the Germans from the Baltic via Danzig.

The Germans have been hammering away at Central Poland all winter as I'm sure you've noticed if you've been watching this show. And for the most part, the Russians have been checking them at every turn (albiet at a high cost, but hey, it's Russia). Plus Poland is giant salient begging to be cut off. Why march all the way through Poland, when you literally have access to the back door and can force it's evacuation that way?

Here's the major question though: there are some groups in WW1 circles which say that Falkenhayn was right and that Germany could not win the war. Others say that Ludendorff was correct and that knocking Russia out of the war sooner would have led to a German victory. Which one do you hold to be true?
Honestly I think that Falkenhayn was right in that a victory in the Western Front would have been impossible given the situation. But his bleed them white strategy is total bull crap. Had Germany knocked out Russia and had Hindenburg/Ludendorff been giving priority then at the very least Warsaw would have been taken in 1915.
The Germans could have done larger and better offensives and then follow up with mopping up operations rather than pausing constantly to catch their breaths and perhaps never even giving the Russians a chance to collectively retreat from Poland and rebuild a defensive line. Perhaps the Russians would have given up before 1917 and the Germans could have thrown those freed up divisions to the Western Front. What say you?

Warsaw was taken in 1915....and the line then proceeded to stay relatively stable for the remaining two years, with some offensives towards Riga.

Maybe more troops would have helped, but I doubt it, the Germans still would have been advancing along limited avenues of major railways (which they had to re-gauge as they advanced). Indeed, the Great Retreat in the north was a drastic overreaction by STAVAKA, the Germans were in no position to advance quickly enough to actually threaten the Russians. Indeed, a large reason the Germans were stopped at all was they were starving to death on the advance through Poland. More troops would have only compounded this problem.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

To be fair the Germans didn't exactly ever communicate with the Austrians either. Basically the situation between the two was just about as bad as it could get. And Conrad is possibly the worst general of the war in a war full of bad generals IMO, that said there are lots of people - including very good historians - who view him as one of the best strategists of the war and claim he was simply let down by a bad army. I think he was a dumbass with his head so far up his strategically gifted ass he couldn't ever appreciate the situation on the ground.

Yes I agree. The Germans pretty much expected Austria to obey them unconditionally, that might have been part of the issue. Perhaps Conrad's charm and his pro-German stance helped soften the issue. Although it was a given that Austria could only survive if it accepted that Germany was the best weapon it had and that cooperating was the only way to win. In my opinion Conrad proved right about a many number of strategic decisions. Regardless I don't consider him even close to one of the best strategists of anything. And yes he failed to look at the situation on the ground, it was his biggest flaw (that and not upgrading his army significantly despite him beating the war drums since the Bosnia annexation).

Joffre is widely recognized as the best man for the job in the first few crucial months of the war, but after that he should have been phased out.

I don't consider Joffre to be such a bad general anyway, in fact I think equal amounts of blame for Joffre's failures can be placed on the war ministry, the French government and his protégée Ferdinand Foch. His issue is probably the same as Conrad's, that he did not take into account the strengths of his enemy and many times failed to see the ground situation. Unlike Conrad he was at least successful in 1914.

The Germans have been hammering away at Central Poland all winter as I'm sure you've noticed if you've been watching this show. And for the most part, the Russians have been checking them at every turn (albiet at a high cost, but hey, it's Russia). Plus Poland is giant salient begging to be cut off. Why march all the way through Poland, when you literally have access to the back door and can force it's evacuation that way?

In my opinion the reinforcements that Hindenburg and Ludendorff wanted would have made the situation on the Eastern Front many times better, even the offensives which were failures in Poland. But Falkenhayn was some sort of nihilist who didn't want major offensives in the east and wasted far too much in his dumb bleed them white strategy.

Warsaw was taken in 1915....and the line then proceeded to stay relatively stable for the remaining two years, with some offensives towards Riga.

Maybe more troops would have helped, but I doubt it, the Germans still would have been advancing along limited avenues of major railways (which they had to re-gauge as they advanced). Indeed, the Great Retreat in the north was a drastic overreaction by STAVAKA, the Germans were in no position to advance quickly enough to actually threaten the Russians. Indeed, a large reason the Germans were stopped at all was they were starving to death on the advance through Poland. More troops would have only compounded this problem.

Those are some really strong points that poke holes in the idea that massive offensives would be overwhelming success in that area. Although I was sort of talking about the possibility for offensives in the East before the Russians retreated to Byelorussia.

[Arto]

This week, the Germans start using inefficient flamethrowers for the first time after getting bored with terrorbombing civilians and using poison gas. In the Middle East the Ottoman army gets driven from Iran (what were they doing there) through a swift Indian cavalry charge.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It is Sunday 7 March 1915. It is the 37th week after the shooting at Sarajevo.

Six British planes drop bombs on the Flemish port of Ostend.

Heavy fights with changing opportunities are taking place along the entire front north of the river Vistula.

Austrian counter-attacks in the Carpathians fail.

A new Greek cabinet led by Prime Minister Dimitrios Gounaris takes up its duties.

British minesweepers try to turn the Dardanelles into a safe waterway while under heavy Turkish fire.

Winston Churchill, First Lord of the Admiralty, cables Admiral Sackville Carden that he will have to accept losses, as long as Constantinople falls.

The Austrian emperor Franz Joseph acquiesces in a border adjustment to the benefit of the Italians.

Lord Kitchener asks the help of the experienced General Ian Hamilton for the allied army campaign in the Dardanelles.

The Belgians gain ground along the river Yser and the French achieve the same in the Champagne district.

Bombs and grenades torment Ypres again.

And the British mount a full-on attack at Neuve Chapelle, the battle that will expose the British Achilles’ heel, to the embarrassment of Prime Minister H.H. Asquith.