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Thread: Anti-GMO activist appologies.

  1. #21

    Default Re: Anti-GMO activist appologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by classical_hero View Post
    Unfortunately many people try and compare GMO's to what has already happened in nature with our artificial breeding, but with artificial breeding is that we have selected foods that have a certain characteristic, but with GMO's they have characteristics inserted into them that don't occur naturally and currently we have no real data on the effects of the changes made.
    That's not really true in the vast majority of cases. The difference is horizontal rather than vertical gene transfer, the former also occurs naturally in some species. In fact, we would have less information on a novel mutation that would then be artificially selected for than on one that exists in another species. Since most random mutations are deleterious, I can't really understand the logic behind random being considered safer than selective.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  2. #22
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Anti-GMO activist appologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by classical_hero View Post
    That is my view also. Unfortunately many people try and compare GMO's to what has already happened in nature with our artificial breeding, but with artificial breeding is that we have selected foods that have a certain characteristic, but with GMO's they have characteristics inserted into them that don't occur naturally and currently we have no real data on the effects of the changes made. I would not consider the current testing as being adequate and considering so many in the FDA are former Monsanto workers, it doesn't make for much of a independent watchdog, with it should be.
    You really have no ideal what you are talking about do you? So let's say the poster boy (of GMO) Monsanto never came up with round up ready ... You can do the same exact thing with supposedly no GMO methods. Google Clearfield Wheat - hey look not a GMO but same result. Why? Because if you mutate via chemicals and radiation - and reproduce seeds like crazy and run Green Houses and seed lockers you will get the mutation you are looking for eventually it just takes longer. Oh and of course the same people have had non GMO methods to slowly slide genes across species for decades again its not as efficient. The simple fact the same people who work at Monsanto could work at the USDA or Iowa State University and they would all use the same science the same methods and the same goals. THe only real diffrence is Monsanto's top brass have the quarterly numbers to think about so they want patents and oppose efforts to rigorous sequestration of land to make sure breeding cycles can keep up with resistance development

    I would not consider the current testing as being adequate
    Really why? Because lipitor or prozac or whatever got 70 years of tests or more at third stage before being used? So hold that the small pox vaccine should have wait how long until used? 50 years a hundred or what. How about the GMO tobacco plants that produce potential for Ebola Vaccines better wait on that I guess as long as you don't live in West Africa.
    Last edited by conon394; January 27, 2015 at 04:36 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Anti-GMO activist appologies.

    When it comes to testing and labeling, as conan points out, you are creating a illogical system whereby producers can potentially get around extra scrutiny simply by using different development methods. Indeed, this is already occurring in the relevant industries.

    The end product being sold to consumers could be exactly the same. Identical down to the last base-pair, yet not be "GMO" in terms of labelling, testing, or GMO bans. This would obviously be an result devoid of scientific basis.

    Now there are consumer labels which don't have to do with the actual product, but rather the social/environmental impact of production. Things like dolphin-free tuna, sustainably harvested wood products, fair-trade coffee etc. These aren't labeling what is in the product itself, but rather avoiding undesirable things involved in their production. But I don't think there is anything more socially/environmentally desirable about, say, bombarding seeds with radiation to induce mutations, rather than inserting the same mutations into the genome directly.

    At the end of the day the distinction put around methods deemed "genetic modification" is a dogma. I don't think public policy should be guided by dogma.
    Last edited by Sphere; January 28, 2015 at 11:13 AM.

  4. #24

    Icon11 Re: Anti-GMO activist appologies.

    the problem really isn't food crops being genetically modified, I think the real problem is modifying them to live in pesticides. we should be able to get rid of pesticides and all that stuff with genetically modified organisms. its likely some of the pesticides end up being consumed by people. we have a lot of technologies these days to improve agriculture but companies like Monsanto aren't really doing a lot to improve the industry... there was the potential to revolutionize farming with new technologies to become more efficient and more sustainable but these companies only really care about profit.. they only care about anything else if they are required to because of government regulations.

  5. #25
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Anti-GMO activist appologies.

    I think the real problem is modifying them to live in pesticides. we should be able to get rid of pesticides and all that stuff with genetically modified organisms
    No you cannot - and you are confusing herbicides with pesticides.

    its likely some of the pesticides end up being consumed by people. we have a lot of technologies these days to improve agriculture but companies like Monsanto aren't really doing a lot to improve the industry... there was the potential to revolutionize farming with new technologies to become more efficient and more sustainable but these companies only really care about profit.. they only care about anything else if they are required to because of government regulations.
    Blah blah I have no ideal about agriculture.

    So let me try again so if you are good and lucky and your program is well funded you might get a decent resistance gene to a fungus in say 5 years (and remember the farmer expects all other qualities to stay the same) and it might last under best practices for 10 years or so. Now with rotation and best practice use of fungicides (tough to apply you have a very limited time to guess on application and they are costly) you might have that last longer. Nothing you can do about weeds and Roundup or similar variants are useful and breakdown quickly (that is non persistent). You could till more but again now you are using fuel and time and bare fields cost from wind erosion. I mean I suppose the US or Canada could order 70% of the thier population back to the farm - so they can weed fields hand and hoe but guessing that won't over well.

    Well now to pesticides what is your alternative? You can't make something permanently resistant and keep all the qualities you want for ever. Sure rotations might help and some long ones even more. However that cost is on the Farmer now. A long mix of grain and livestock is a good thing. But you have to able fence all your fields and sustain all the infrastructure for both. Not to mention you also have to able afford to not grow/raise the most valuable crop or livestock for your acreage.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Anti-GMO activist appologies.

    Never heard of that one. What does this matter for ?

  7. #27
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Anti-GMO activist appologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracula View Post
    Never heard of that one. What does this matter for ?
    that one what?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  8. #28
    Dracula's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Anti-GMO activist appologies.

    That activist.

  9. #29
    classical_hero's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Anti-GMO activist appologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShockBlast View Post
    This is ridiculous, GMOs are a problem not because they are GMOs, the problem is that it`s not properly tested !

    It doesn`t have anything to do with environmentalist fanatics or sub-human retards who cheer at the prospect of being testing subjects, it has to do with proper testing !

    If the product passes, then it can be mass-produced.
    That is my beef with GMO's. They are assumed to be just as safe as the non GMO's of the same food yet without and proper testing to back that up. Basically Americans are guinea pigs in all this.

  10. #30
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Anti-GMO activist appologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by classical_hero View Post
    That is my beef with GMO's. They are assumed to be just as safe as the non GMO's of the same food yet without and proper testing to back that up. Basically Americans are guinea pigs in all this.
    What proper testing are you suggesting - you are OK if 'non GMO' achieves the same result by using all kinds of 'traditional' like radiation or chemicals or sliding genes across similar or dissimilar species just slower or more costly right?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  11. #31
    The Hedge Knight's Avatar Fierce When Cornered
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    Default Re: Anti-GMO activist appologies.

    I have no idea what you mean when you say they aren't properly tested. Any GMO has a research train several years or decades long attached to it. Is there a single example of a GMO you can name which hasn't had safe testing?

  12. #32

    Default Re: Anti-GMO activist appologies.

    Just read a Razib Khan blog post, the highlights of which I think belong here.

    People who are not aware of how common horizontal gene transfer in the natural world is are frightened by the idea of “fish genes in tomatoes.”
    A couple of links:

    About a quarter of a cow's genome came from snakes

    8% of the humane genome was inserted by viruses

    The second one I was aware of but never really thought about in relation to this topic. Potential naturalistic fallacy going on here though because that doesn't make GMOs "good". Although with GMOs, transfers are controlled, whereas we'd rather not have viruses making the decisions for us.

    This is my favorite part though:

    “Ordinary tomatoes do not contain genes, while genetically modified tomatoes do. (Is that true or false?)”

    I can't really copy and paste the data he analyses about who answered "true", so just check it out here if you're interested.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  13. #33

    Default Re: Anti-GMO activist appologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by classical_hero View Post
    That is my beef with GMO's. They are assumed to be just as safe as the non GMO's of the same food yet without and proper testing to back that up. Basically Americans are guinea pigs in all this.

    This has come up several times in this thread and I just don't know where it is coming from. Because of anti-GMO activists the requirements of getting a GMO to market are extremely rigorous, time consuming and expensive. It is one of the reasons only major multinationals are capable of putting out cost effective GMO's. Monsanto, the worlds most evil company, has practically cornered the market on GMO crops mostly because no smaller regional based companies can meet the cost requirements to bring a product to market. They have no competition thanks to people like you. Who don't know what they are talking about, have been convinced that GMO crops are bad and have been fed false talking points by crazy activists for years. Hell, I can't count how many times people have told me that GMO wheat is a menace and that it has ruined our bodies etc. etc. Guess what, there is no GMO wheat in north america. Zero, not a single crop. That is because it is not profitable thanks in part to the anti-GMO crowd. So Monsanto, who owns most (if not all) of the GMO wheat patents does not sell or use the seeds. Doesn't stop people from claiming GMO wheat is out there ruining us. The amount of misinformation about GMO products is scary, unfortunately, in the information age people don't actually want REAL information. They just want information that fits their world view, whether its correct or not.

  14. #34
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Anti-GMO activist appologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
    This has come up several times in this thread and I just don't know where it is coming from. Because of anti-GMO activists the requirements of getting a GMO to market are extremely rigorous, time consuming and expensive. It is one of the reasons only major multinationals are capable of putting out cost effective GMO's. Monsanto, the worlds most evil company, has practically cornered the market on GMO crops mostly because no smaller regional based companies can meet the cost requirements to bring a product to market. They have no competition thanks to people like you. Who don't know what they are talking about, have been convinced that GMO crops are bad and have been fed false talking points by crazy activists for years. Hell, I can't count how many times people have told me that GMO wheat is a menace and that it has ruined our bodies etc. etc. Guess what, there is no GMO wheat in north america. Zero, not a single crop. That is because it is not profitable thanks in part to the anti-GMO crowd. So Monsanto, who owns most (if not all) of the GMO wheat patents does not sell or use the seeds. Doesn't stop people from claiming GMO wheat is out there ruining us. The amount of misinformation about GMO products is scary, unfortunately, in the information age people don't actually want REAL information. They just want information that fits their world view, whether its correct or not.
    Wheat is a funny example since also sheds light on another area that gets confused with GMO is round up ready crops. But since the Clear Field Wheat system (Google it) is basically the same thing produced via "traditional" means it avoids being called a GMO. Make mistake that was intentional (and mostly to sidestep patents and fear of GMOs) and I guarantee the team of collaborators that did it could all been hired by Monsanto from top Manger and PhD to lab monkey and field tech. Not only that a lot traditional breeding does use GMO to isolate or narrow down candidates for alteration and than simply does it w/o direct GMO in the breeding
    lines.

    That is because it is not profitable thanks in part to the anti-GMO crowd.
    Although to fair Monsanto has focused on the crops that are typically grown in places only 1-2 good profitable rotations. Makes sense. Wheat is a bit harder nut to crack. In Washington it is the crown crop but there are 4+ solid rotation crops all that can be harvested with the same equipment and since it also dry land you got one regular rotation of just bare moisture conservation. Plus the region has a strong cattle and logging infrastructure so worst case its east to flip to just pasture or CRP and plant trees for 20 years down road.

    Monsanto does deserve a ding because it works so hard to reject outside scientific opnion that would keeps it GMOs working longer -Its thinking is all bottom line next quarter not a decade ahead. BASF and the Universities worked with were very clever in how thay did Clear Field, they side stepped GMO issues and went for a strong 'stewardship' policy so they have time add multiple gene resistance once the once the original single gene version fails or passes it resistance to similar 'weeds'
    Last edited by conon394; May 02, 2015 at 06:41 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  15. #35
    classical_hero's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Anti-GMO activist appologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
    This has come up several times in this thread and I just don't know where it is coming from. Because of anti-GMO activists the requirements of getting a GMO to market are extremely rigorous, time consuming and expensive. It is one of the reasons only major multinationals are capable of putting out cost effective GMO's. Monsanto, the worlds most evil company, has practically cornered the market on GMO crops mostly because no smaller regional based companies can meet the cost requirements to bring a product to market. They have no competition thanks to people like you. Who don't know what they are talking about, have been convinced that GMO crops are bad and have been fed false talking points by crazy activists for years. Hell, I can't count how many times people have told me that GMO wheat is a menace and that it has ruined our bodies etc. etc. Guess what, there is no GMO wheat in north america. Zero, not a single crop. That is because it is not profitable thanks in part to the anti-GMO crowd. So Monsanto, who owns most (if not all) of the GMO wheat patents does not sell or use the seeds. Doesn't stop people from claiming GMO wheat is out there ruining us. The amount of misinformation about GMO products is scary, unfortunately, in the information age people don't actually want REAL information. They just want information that fits their world view, whether its correct or not.
    I'm sure you can supply me with the testing they have done.

  16. #36
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Anti-GMO activist appologies.

    I'm sure you can supply me with the testing they have done.
    Do you even know what kind of testing you want and for reason?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  17. #37
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Anti-GMO activist appologies.

    Yes this section is slow but Classical_Hero why post and run? What evidence do you have they are unsafe?

    Let's take the poster child - Golden Rice, not Monsanto and cheaper than every alternative for vitamin A deficiency in places that are dirt poor. But hey Green Peace says it is evil so let those kids die... better dead than eating a GMO

    http://www.slate.com/articles/health...eficiency.html
    Last edited by conon394; May 03, 2015 at 12:00 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  18. #38
    Trax's Avatar It's a conspiracy!
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    Default Re: Anti-GMO activist appologies.

    Anti GMO people are just crazy, like anti-vaxxers, global warming deniers or intelligent designers.

    The scientific consensus is clear in all cases but some people just know better through some special revelation.

  19. #39

    Default Re: Anti-GMO activist appologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by classical_hero View Post
    I'm sure you can supply me with the testing they have done.
    So... As conon has already said, even if I went and dug it all up for you, which I'm not, what would you do with it? I'm sure, given enough time I can find numerous papers on the safety of GMO food products. But what are you gonna do with them. Something tells me you wouldn't read them and if you did (considering your comments thus far) the chances of you understanding them are probably pretty low.

    That being said, the requirements for registering a GMO product with the FDA can be found online and the amount of red tape and studies required for registration is quite large. But yes please proceed with believing that food items are being brought to market without proper studies and tests.

    http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/Gu.../UCM201599.pdf

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