Total War: ATTILA - Pre-Order & Release Date and Special Edition Announcement

[LinusLinothorax]

I hope CA and Sega are aware that if they will mess up a release again, they will loose like over 50% of their fanbase.

[texoman81]

The Jutes are Danes...

They were not unified in that period, so I understand why they are treated as separated tribes.

As i pointed out in the Viking Forefathers DLC thread, the Jutes are not Danes, Vikings or even Norse at all. They are Ingaevones like the Angles and Saxons. It is a different branch of the german peoples. The descendants of the Norse include the Danes, Swede, and Norwegians. The descendants of the Ingaevones include the English and Frissians. We have to stop automatically connecting historical people with what nation modern borders would place them in. Sure some of the Jutes who didn't go to Britain were absorbed by the Norse who became the Danes, but that doesn't make the independent Jutes from earlier in history Danes. Just like you wouldn't call the Britons of Caesars time Anglo-Saxons or English just because they were absorbed by the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes in the process of the ethnogenesis of the English people.

[Sharpe]

Just like you wouldn't call the Britons of Caesars time Anglo-Saxons or English just because they were absorbed by the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes in the process of the ethnogenesis of the English people.

Reverse that and you're correct. Jutes, Angles and Saxons were assimilated into the pre-existing Islander population but were the ruling political class as a vast minority. Because the Celts forgot how to fight apparently.

[texoman81]

Reverse that and you're correct. Jutes, Angles and Saxons were assimilated into the pre-existing Islander population but were the ruling political class as a vast minority. Because the Celts forgot how to fight apparently.

If the celts absorbed the Germans you would be speaking a Celtic language now. It doesn't matter how many of each ethnic group there were, the culture and language were more Anglo-Saxon than Celtic. Old Saxon and Old English were even more obviously German. Many of the Celts were killed by the Germanic tribes, so the difference in population isn't what you think it is anyways. That is why it became Angle land, Engla land and then England. I don't know why you insist so much on denying there Germanic heritage of the English. That doesn't mean you are of the modern German race, it just means you understand the history of England. And as i pointed out before the Britons of what would become England had already been conquered and assimilated by Romans, so they were already Romano-Britons. Celtic identify held out longer in what would become Wales and Scotland, but they were eventually largely Anglicized as well. Then Olde Englishe then under went partial Francization to give us modern English. The language with speak is largely Romance because of the effects of French and Latin. There is still a large chunk of Germanic words left as well, but there is little Celtic. There is more influence from Native Americans on the English language than Celts.

[Sharpe]

If the celts absorbed the Germans you would be speaking a Celtic language now. It doesn't matter how many of each ethnic group there were, the culture and language were more Anglo-Saxon than Celtic. Old Saxon and Old English were even more obviously German. Many of the Celts were killed by the Germanic tribes, so the difference in population isn't what you think it is anyways. That is why it became Angle land, Engla land and then England. I don't know why you insist so much on denying there Germanic heritage of the English. That doesn't mean you are of the modern German race, it just means you understand the history of England. And as i pointed out before the Britons of what would become England had already been conquered and assimilated by Romans, so they were already Romano-Britons. Celtic identify held out longer in what would become Wales and Scotland, but they were eventually largely Anglicized as well. Then Olde Englishe then under went partial Francization to give us modern English. The language with speak is largely Romance because of the effects of French and Latin. There is still a large chunk of Germanic words left as well, but there is little Celtic. There is more influence from Native Americans on the English language than Celts.

I don't disagree - but don't mix ethnogenesis (genetics) with cultural/linguistic hegemony and assimilation - they are two very different things.

FYI I'm not even English.

EDIT: The idea that modern Brits are descended from the Germanic invaders, though commonly held, has been pretty much debunked by genetic evidence. The modern English, Irish, Welsh and Scottish are genetically very similar, almost to the point of being identical.

Then notion of the Angles, Saxons and Jutes (Germanic Forefathers pack lololol) immigrating to Britain in vast numbers and displacing/genociding the native Celts is a bit of a myth. The real truth, which is slowly coming to light, seems to be a cultural and military subjugation, very similar to the Roman conquest of Britain. And so you have the English language - which is mainly German with a sprinkling of old Celtic. The Germanic invasion contributed less than 5% of modern English DNA.

Furthermore - the ancient peoples of Germany, Scandinavia, Spain, France and the British Isles are extremely similar anyway, cousins if you will.

I'm not trying to be awkward, and I understand it's still a contentious debate but I just done a module on this last year and find it pretty interesting.

I still can't see the Brits being FLC though, despite them probably being more relevant than the Iceni in Rome 2.

[texoman81]

I don't disagree - but don't mix ethnogenesis (genetics) with cultural/linguistic hegemony and assimilation - they are two very different things.

FYI I'm not even English.

Ok sorry for the assumption. You are from East London and saying the English are in anyway connected to anything Germanic appears to be a sore spot for you....now i'm just confused by your stance

The genetic, cultural, and linguistic identity of the English occurred through assimilation. They are very much intricately connected. Nearly everything about the English was originally Germanic. The first major external influence was religion, that was where the Latin influence began. The Angles, Saxons and Jutes merged together with the Romano-Britons to form the beginning of the English race. They were still much more like the Germanic tribes on the mainland than like modern English, Celts, or Romans. Roman/Latin influence began seeping in through religion and science, and greatly increased under French influence. And that impacted every aspect of life. Actually genetics is the area where their is the most Celtic influence, the Celtic influence is less in all other areas. Not to say there was none at all, but it ways very much over powered by the Germanic influences. The Norse also had a bigger impact than the Celts making Old English even more German. The fact that the descended of the Romano-Celts began to call themselves Anglish/English and speak a Germanic Language (Old English) shows that they were assimilated by the German tribes.

EDIT: The idea that modern Brits are descended from the Germanic invaders, though commonly held, has been pretty much debunked by genetic evidence. The modern English, Irish, Welsh and Scottish are genetically very similar, almost to the point of being identical.

Then notion of the Angles, Saxons and Jutes (Germanic Forefathers pack lololol) immigrating to Britain in vast numbers and displacing/genociding the native Celts is a bit of a myth. The real truth, which is slowly coming to light, seems to be a cultural and military subjugation, very similar to the Roman conquest of Britain. And so you have the English language - which is mainly German with a sprinkling of old Celtic. The Germanic invasion contributed less than 5% of modern English DNA.

Furthermore - the ancient peoples of Germany, Scandinavia, Spain, France and the British Isles are extremely similar anyway, cousins if you will.

I'm not trying to be awkward, and I understand it's still a contentious debate but I just done a module on this last year and find it pretty interesting.

I still can't see the Brits being FLC though, despite them probably being more relevant than the Iceni in Rome 2.

Yes modern inhabitants have been found to be genetically similar, but what you are overlooking is that genetic identify is very much germanic, with a celtic component as well. Genetically the French are much more Celtic than the British. The inhabitants of the British Isles share a genetic identity today because they were conquered by the Anglo-Saxons/English. The same reason nearly everyone speaks ENGLISH. And at one time they were all Catholic, until the Protestant Reformation.

I never argued for replacement or genocide, i said they assimilated the Romano-Britons that they conquered. Yes much like under Rome. The lives of the Romano Celts was much more like Romans of the main lands than like their purely Celtic ancestors. They spoke Latin, lived in Roman cities, converted to Christianity etc. Every aspect of their identity as a people began to change under Rome, and that was furthered under the Anglo-Saxon. Even without being conquered, all people will evolve into something different than what they were. Being conquered and assimilated speed up this process greatly though. There is a sprinkling of Celtic in many aspects of the English identity, but there is much more of other groups, like Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Norse, Romans, and French. As i said genetics is where the Celts have the biggest impact but it is small in most other areas.

You are greatly over implying thing by saying all the Europeans were cousins. Germanic, Celtic, and Italic are separate branches of the info-europoean family. They are only cousins in the sense that they are all indo-european. Just like Persians and Indians. The Britons were a separate Branch of the Celtic family. The Gaels of Ireland were a separate branch. The Celts of Iberia were mixed with Non-Indo European Iberians and Tartessians. And the Lusitani have a distinct component that is indo-european but separate from Celtic. Perhaps Ligurian or Italic or something unique.

Brits are likely to be a DLC for the simple fact that it would sell in England. The same reason they put the Iceni in R2.

[Karnil Vark Khaitan]

I still can't see the Brits being FLC though, despite them probably being more relevant than the Iceni in Rome 2.

Maybe let the start of as a small horde in wales? and make the blue? with a small white dragon on the banner?
It sounds like a possible mod :3

[texoman81]

Maybe let the start of as a small horde in wales? and make the blue? with a small white dragon on the banner?
It sounds like a possible mod :3

Many factions are hordes so that is very possible. If CA doesn't add Britons, and allows us to mod the game at all, there will be mods that will transform one of more of the Germanic tribes into Britons.

[Sharpe]

Don't get me wrong I like Germans, haha I'm dating one ffs.

I just think it's inaccurate to call the English 'German'.

King Arthur emergent faction?

[texoman81]

Don't get me wrong I like Germans, haha I'm dating one ffs.

I just think it's inaccurate to call the English 'German'.

King Arthur emergent faction?

I never called the modern English German. I have called their language Germanic, while also saying it was now more Latin than German. I also said the Anglo-Saxon tribes assimilated the Romano-Britons they conquered. Name a people who were assimilated and tell me how what happened to the Romano-Britains was different. They were partially assimilated by the Romans then fully assimilated by the Anglo-Saxons. Assimilated people do leave a genetic footprint and usually have varying degrees of influence on those that assimilated them in many ways.

The English of who spoke Old English i think it would be safe to still call them German. They had already began to diverge but the Saxons in England were still much like the Saxons on the mainland for a long time. Absorbing the Romano-Britons didn't change the Anglo-Saxon tribes much. It was later influences from Norse, French and Latin that changed them to the point you can't really call them a German people anymore.

As inaccurate as BI2 has been so far it wouldn't surprise me that much at this point if they did include King Arthur. But i really hope they don't go that far into fantasy. There will probably be mods that include King Arthur though, again if mods are allowed at all this time.

[Abdülmecid I]

The problem is that the written and archaelogical sources aren't always an accurate representation of the past. They always care more about the ruling class, so in our example they make you think that the Anglosaxonc element was much more prevalent than it really was. The same could be said for the Ptolemaic Egypt and so on...

[SirRobin]

"The Jutes are Danes"

They were not unified in that period, so I understand why they are treated as separated tribes.

Heck, we're still not totally unified I'm a Jute, from Jutland. We're still around. Can't believe we're finally in a game.

Not going to pre-order though..

[kamikazee786]

Fool me once, shame on you !

Fool me twice, shame on me !

[texoman81]

The problem is that the written and archaelogical sources aren't always an accurate representation of the past. They always care more about the ruling class, so in our example they make you think that the Anglosaxonc element was much more prevalent than it really was. The same could be said for the Ptolemaic Egypt and so on...

All evidence we have about the English early on shows they were more Anglo-Saxon than Celtic or Roman. The spoke a German language, that is a huge part of the identity of a people. There is little retained from there Celtic past. There is more Roman, Norse and Anglo-Saxon than Celtic. The degree of influence of the various groups can also be observed in modern English language and culture. There are many elements than can be recognized as Latin, French or Germanic, but little that can be called Celtic. The largest influence the Celts had was genetic, and even that is less in England than much of Europe. There are also many elements of modern English identity that are uniquely English.

The Celts were absorbed by the Germans in England just as they were in modern southern Germany, Austria, and Switzerland. These once Celtic lands were no longer Celtic after the Germans expanded into those areas. The reason modern English aren't a German people like the Saxons on the mainland continued to be is due largely to French influence. As I said a race that is assimilated still has some influence on the race assimilating it. It is a question of which is prevalent. It isn't even about who is in power. For example the conquering Parni were assimilated by the Parthians that they conquered. They gave up their Scythian identify and began calling themselves Parthians. They then considered themselves the heirs of the Persian Empire and founded the Parthian Empire. They changed their language, religion, culture and way of life.

[Sharpe]

Genetically the French are much more Celtic than the British.

The reason modern English aren't a German people like the Saxons on the mainland continued to be is due largely to French influence.

I'm sorry dude but your vision of this period of history is really skewed - where were you taught this stuff? Your statements are often contradictory to the publications of scholars on the topic.

A lot of what you say is outright false - what's the deal?

[texoman81]

I'm sorry dude but your vision of this period of history is really skewed - where were you taught this stuff? Your statements are often contradictory to the publications of scholars on the topic.

A lot of what you say is outright false - what's the deal?

You obviously just want to ignore history you don't like, for whatever reason. I am an American of partial Native American descent but i don't deny the the Trail of Tears happened.
England has been conquered by Romans, Angles, Jutes, Saxons, Vikings and Normans. All of them are part of what make up the English identity. Olde English is a German language. The culture of the people at the same time was as well. The majority of the modern English language is French/Latin as a result of influence from French. Especially while England was ruled by the Normans (Francified Vikings).

What do you think the genetic makeup of the French is? They are descended mostly from Romanized Gauls. When the Franks conquer Gaul they settled mostly in what is now the Netherlands and Belgium. There were more celts in Gaul than Britain, yet more Germans settled in Britain than settled in Gaul. That is why French is a Gallo-Romance language and English is a Germanic language.

If you have proof of anything i'm saying is false, other than the fact that you don't like it, i'm open to being corrected.

[Garensterz]

there´s even movie like filming possible

What? What is this? Is this a mod? did it ever existed? I needs the link now!

[youngfool]

A brand new independent triple A game for only $45? what a bargain!
That or this could be the most expensive DLC ever made... a new high by CA!

[youngfool]

What? What is this? Is this a mod? did it ever existed? I needs the link now!

I think some of the movie is made using mount and blade footage

[spanish_emperor]

CA now advertise the videos as created by the game engine rather than as ingame footage. I think this is more accurate.