Increasing the Level of Unit Uniformity as a State Grows

[TheVerySpecialK]

I don't know if something like this would be possible, but hey, it's worth a shot...

I'm one of those players who is obsessed with unit uniformity: I like it when the troops under my command are similarly equipped and colored. Not only does it make it easier to tell whose troops are whose*, but it also satisfies my perfectionist nature. Now, to be clear, having units of troops that display a level of diversity is by no means a deal-breaker for me (I really love the mod); I just prefer that my troops look alike.

Now, here is my idea: what if the level of uniformity amongst a faction's units could see an increase respective to the power and wealth of the faction? For example, the army of a small state would be equipped rather irregularly, due to a general lack of extra funds to spend on uniform. Then, as the power and wealth of the state grew through conquest, it could be assumed that the military of that state would receive increased funding, part of which would be spent on increasing uniformity amongst the ranks.

Now, I get the whole "historical" thing that you guys are going for here. I get that the ancient Greeks weren't equipped like Stormtroopers from Star Wars. But then again, ancient Greece also didn't conquer Rome, dominate the Gauls, and spread Democracy to the shores of Britannia. If they had, it could (rather plausibly) be assumed they would also have made advances to the manner in which they equipped their armies, perhaps taking inspiration from the more (though not perfectly) uniform Roman legionary dress.

Feedback?



*This is another slight issue that sort of relates to my proposal: as the mod currently stands, hoplites from Greece look exactly like those from Bosphoros, which look exactly like those from Pergamon, which... you get the point. Is this "historical"? If it is, how did ancient armies tell each other apart once they closed for melee? Furthermore, pretty much every hoplite has a a different color cloak, a different helmet, a different plume on their helmet, a different shield... in other words, they all kind of "blend" together, with no visible distinction between opposing sides.

The only hoplites that I feel are actually unique are the ones from Carthage, which are easily distinguishable from those originating in the various city-states of Greece. I feel that respectively increasing uniformity amongst units like hoplites could help alleviate some of these problems.

[Satapatiš]

A lack of any uniformity in units is entirely historical.
Not even Romans were as strictly uniformised as it is shown in movies and TV shows.

That's not even a product of a poor organisation or a lack of care, just an effect of an every piece of equipment made by hand to individual order.

When it comes to the hellenic states, the best you could count at were things like vergina on Macedonian shields, or anchor on the Seleucid ones. Except it also wasn't uniformised, two warriors with the same symbol on their shields could end with having it painted in a different way.

Eastern factions have it even worse:



I can almost tell which side is mine.


But seriously, most of the time warriors were identifying themselves by who's on the which side of the battlefield, who's close to which banners and by calls. With cultures like Greeks, there was also a matter of family and tribal symbols on shields.

I don't think even Romans had any standardisation with shield paintings prior to the Marian reform.

[TheVerySpecialK]

Nice screenshot!

Not even Romans were as strictly uniformised as it is shown in movies and TV shows.

I realize that, and that is why I why I included "not perfectly" in parenthesis. However, it is historically accepted that the the legions of Rome wore a fairly standardized style of dress for the time. Sure, an individual soldier's armor may have exhibited unique variations when compared to that of his companions, but their colors and general "kit" were at the very least matching.

A lack of any uniformity in units is entirely historical.

Indeed, you are right. However, the players and AI of EB are also capable of doing very un-historical things, dramatically reshaping the ancient world in the process. While ancient Greek hoplites may have never standardized their dress, the Greeks also never expanded into an massive empire like the Romans did. The player commanding Greece is capable of doing this, though, so it is really unrealistic to expect an eventual, gradual standardization of military dress like that of the Romans?

I'm focusing more on the "what-if" here, not the "what-was." That's really what Total War is about: it gives you the freedom to take some random nation and completely re-shape history. If the player somehow turns the state of Bosphoros into a world-spanning empire, it actually makes sense to see a gradual evolution of the way its armed forces identify themselves: after a while, "family" and "tribal" symbols might not cut it, as the huge diversity of territory and culture encompassed by such an empire would quickly render these symbols insufficient. That's why the Romans standardized in the way they did: their empire was so huge and culture so diverse that a common color and "kit" was needed to add some uniformity to things.

[Satapatiš]

I'm focusing more on the "what-if" here, not the "what-was." That's really what Total War is about: it gives you the freedom to take some random nation and completely re-shape history. If the player somehow turns the state of Bosphoros into a world-spanning empire, it actually makes sense to see a gradual evolution of the way its armed forces identify themselves: after a while, "family" and "tribal" symbols might not cut it, as the huge diversity of territory and culture encompassed by such an empire would quickly render these symbols insufficient. That's why the Romans standardized in the way they did: their empire was so huge and culture so diverse that a common color and "kit" was needed to add some uniformity to things.

"What if", however, cannot stand for a lack of means of production, such as the Roman fabricae for other factions. This would require another building for all factions, thus giving other than Roman factions something well beyond their historical way of thinking. And even for Romans this kind of organised production would be well beyond the EB timeframe.

This would also require more units, since early units should not be uniformised, as factions should be at least starting with their usual look.

All this work for something that can be, gameplay wise, handled by unit markers and banners.


And even for the Imperial and late Romans this uniformisation was much less than it shows in stereotypes. People in the same maniple could have shields with the same painting, but loricas and helmets of different types and it's very unlikely if they all had tunicas and cloaks of the same color.


Also, for Hellenic kingdoms using either native troops levied in the same area or military settlers, family and tribal symbols still can work. People in the same unit were very likely to be neighbours.

[Dago Red]

I don't share your perspective much, and have tended to be one of the tiny minority trying to explain the reality (of historical reality) to the uninformed masses in the Rome II general forum, most of whom wanted red storm troopers in shining steel lorica segmentata... so it was pleasing beyond measure to see that even vanilla Rome II released with widely varying, realistic units (thanks in part to former modder Jack Lusted, and the unit skins are the only functioning aspect of the game).

But... if I were painting these models myself in real life, I would certainly give the Bosporan hoplites a subtle wash that's different from the Pergamon hoplites across the black sea, that's different from Koinen Hellenon's, etc, etc. It would be a light touch, such as a tint of pale red washed into the folds of tunics and cuirass' for Bosporan units and a slight faded blue for KH, etc. As it is, the shields are excellent identifiers and do appear completely different from other factions. But differences among phalangitai are less apparentand I can see overall how someone might want a little extra something to see who's who during clashes of the same unit types.

It's really only bad in seiges though, where this ungainly blob forms in the center and 1000 units are all on top of each other.
PS. where's a hotfix for this, for the love of Zeus!?

[k/t]

You're talking about R2, right?

[Dago Red]

If you mean me, you'll have to clarify that. I thought I was clear -- complete with my differing viewpoint, but ability to see his point, to some degree.

In short, Rome II sucks and the only good thing about it is its unit diversity and realistic variance, something I would not want to see less of here or anywhere else... much of which was inspired by mods (like EBII even though still in development).

[gaius valerius]

I don't know if something like this would be possible, but hey, it's worth a shot...

I'm one of those players who is obsessed with unit uniformity: I like it when the troops under my command are similarly equipped and colored. Not only does it make it easier to tell whose troops are whose*, but it also satisfies my perfectionist nature. Now, to be clear, having units of troops that display a level of diversity is by no means a deal-breaker for me (I really love the mod); I just prefer that my troops look alike.

Now, here is my idea: what if the level of uniformity amongst a faction's units could see an increase respective to the power and wealth of the faction? For example, the army of a small state would be equipped rather irregularly, due to a general lack of extra funds to spend on uniform. Then, as the power and wealth of the state grew through conquest, it could be assumed that the military of that state would receive increased funding, part of which would be spent on increasing uniformity amongst the ranks.

Now, I get the whole "historical" thing that you guys are going for here. I get that the ancient Greeks weren't equipped like Stormtroopers from Star Wars. But then again, ancient Greece also didn't conquer Rome, dominate the Gauls, and spread Democracy to the shores of Britannia. If they had, it could (rather plausibly) be assumed they would also have made advances to the manner in which they equipped their armies, perhaps taking inspiration from the more (though not perfectly) uniform Roman legionary dress.

Feedback?



*This is another slight issue that sort of relates to my proposal: as the mod currently stands, hoplites from Greece look exactly like those from Bosphoros, which look exactly like those from Pergamon, which... you get the point. Is this "historical"? If it is, how did ancient armies tell each other apart once they closed for melee? Furthermore, pretty much every hoplite has a a different color cloak, a different helmet, a different plume on their helmet, a different shield... in other words, they all kind of "blend" together, with no visible distinction between opposing sides.

The only hoplites that I feel are actually unique are the ones from Carthage, which are easily distinguishable from those originating in the various city-states of Greece. I feel that respectively increasing uniformity amongst units like hoplites could help alleviate some of these problems.

Game is about realism.

What you propose is unrealistic.

[Sar1n]

What I think would be sufficient, and is AFAIK doable in M2TW, is to have just a few splashes of faction color on mid and higher tier units. Nothingh big...say, one in five possible helmets would have faction colored plume, quarter of cloaks would be partially or whole of faction color, and some shield motives would also have dominant faction color...overall, you'd get some splashes of faction color in the mass of troops, nothing big but would allow distinguishing the masses a bit. Levies, low tier units and such would of course remain without faction color...

[Satapatiš]

What I think would be sufficient, and is AFAIK doable in M2TW, is to have just a few splashes of faction color on mid and higher tier units. Nothingh big...say, one in five possible helmets would have faction colored plume, quarter of cloaks would be partially or whole of faction color, and some shield motives would also have dominant faction color...overall, you'd get some splashes of faction color in the mass of troops, nothing big but would allow distinguishing the masses a bit. Levies, low tier units and such would of course remain without faction color...

Uhh, no...

So-called faction colors are something very artificial and I certainly would not like to see top tier units turned into some kind of CA stereotype. I'd rather see the Saka nobles and Parthians in all their accurate coloring.

I can't really comprehend why is this need for uniformity? It's as immersion-breaking and ahistorical as unit markers and floating banners. One can have both banners and markers enabled all the time with no problems about which unit belongs to which side.

What's the point in trying to build a mod as historical as it might be possible with the TW engine, and then breaking it with fantasy skins for units?

[Darkan]

@Satapatiš
I agree, though the green/red/blue flashing button (that I understood will be in next release) will help distinguish better.

[k/t]

When you mentioned the 1000 soldiers mashing into a blob, you were talking about R2, not EB2, right? That's what I meant.

I'd also prefer completely authentic units. People want the faction colours because they're used to that from other mods/games.

[Achilles Lacedaemon]

Thats why Sparta is the best, with they proud crimson tunics and lambda on the shields.

[naq]

From the Trajan Column, it seems that the Romans were quite uniformed, at least within a single unit.

[Darkan]

From the Trajan Column, it seems that the Romans were quite uniformed, at least within a single unit.

Scenes & equipment on the column is not in the time frame of the mod (post 100AD).

[Sint]

The colloum is also highly stylized,the Tropaeum Traiani from the same period shows men wearing mail and scale but no Lorica Segmentata at all.
And this one looks like just a tunic.

[Satapatiš]

Well, the Traian Column also shows skin-tight scale armor both for men and their horses, which hardly is a realistic depiction.

[Sint]

Well scale isn't that good unless worn or attached over another layer of armor.
And upward stab can actually go straight through it.

[Kranos]

Well, the Traian Column also shows skin-tight scale armor both for men and their horses, which hardly is a realistic depiction.

I think you are reffering to sarmatian cavalry depicted there and I dont know what is so laughable about it.

[Satapatiš]

I dont know what is so laughable about it.

The way how their suits and barding on their horses is depicted? Not even close to the real thing.

And a good reminder how unrealistic classical art can be only because of an artistic licence, as it isn't a work of some unskilled provincional artists.