Faction Reveal Thread - The Ostrogoths

[PointOfViewGun]

The Ostrogoths

“The Ostrogoths' wanderings through Roman lands belie their origins as a powerful empire.”



Originally known as the Greuthungi, they are a confederation of distinct peoples originally from the Baltic coast who settled close to the Black Sea. Unfortunately, this means they were the first of the Germanic peoples to face the wave of Hun and Alani invasions that have shattered the known world. Now leading an uneasy existence on the Empire’s borderlands, the Ostrogoths are vulnerable to Roman abuse and barbarian attack alike, and so sell themselves as mercenaries to the very same Huns that subdued them. Still, the memory of their former supremacy preserves Ostrogothic hope; a strong leader could rescue them from their plight and restore them to glory…

The Ostrogoths’ long relationship with Roman culture, civic and military matters lends them much credence, to the point where they face little resistance from the local populace when occupying Roman territories. In such circumstances, they also have access to Roman military assets to strengthen their numbers.

[Karnil Vark Khaitan]

PIKES!!!!!!!! BY CELESTIA PIKESSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

this is awesome, but what is up with all factions icon having gold? I liked the old way.


vs.

And I like their color, they will be my first playthough, and then I will add Bactria into the game.

[texoman81]

YAWN. Just as i predicted. Since they had the Visigoths it was almost a given that the Ostrogoths would be included too. So now that just leaves WRE, Franks, Alemanni, and Huns. Unless they decide to go with their original plan of making Huns the unplayable "bad guy". BI2 is going to have the same playable factions as BI1 did. They just split the Goths and replaced the generic Sarmatians with the more specific Alan tribe. At least the minor changes are improvements. The only "surprise" so far has been the order they will be announced in. And eventually we will find out what they decided to do with the Huns. I think they will make them playable.

[Linke]

Someone tell me about those Longspears/Pikes.

[RedGuard]

those pikes will be useful against the huns. although I thought by this time phalanx warfare had gone out of style.

[LewisVee]

those pikes will be useful against the huns. although I thought by this time phalanx warfare had gone out of style.

They will be if you can get close to the Huns and their Bow armed cavalry.

Anyway I'm not too surprised by them being playable, it really does seem like a BI2 add on.

[ariyan]

[Tripledot]

I don't care if there are anachronisms; it means more resources for modders! Crossbowmen and pikes means we can get a medieval mod for Atilla.

[Le_Swede]

I don't care if there are anachronisms; it means more resources for modders! Crossbowmen and pikes means we can get a medieval mod for Atilla.

Didn't think of that. Now I'm glad that they included these pikes.

[Karnil Vark Khaitan]

Didn't think of that. Now I'm glad that they included these pikes.

yep Pikes are awesome!

[EmperorBatman999]

Those guys do look quite awesome. I think I've finally seen a fearsome unit in this game for once.

Now, I am curious about the pikes. I've heard descriptions of the Goths are using pikes, but was this true or misinterpretation of the shield wall common in barbarian armies? Or perhaps these pikes are descended from the long spears and lances used by previous Germanic tribes?

[Ahiga]

I defended their take on the Saxons, but I do have to admit here it's one heck of a strange choice. Ostrogoths being the more Sarmatianized/Steppeized of the Goths and when they establish their Italian kingdom having their army be almost entirely either cavalry or archers (the assize-style order if I recall correctly stipulated the richest Ostrogoths possessed heavy cavalry panoply, the 2nd richest had light cavalry panoply, the 3rd richest/1st poorest were equipped as foot archers with shields). Personally I would have considered giving pseudo pikes to a more continental Suebic German group to hearken back to that centuries earlier reference about quasi pikes being used.

But nothing says CA has to do a complete historical fidelity take on the past. While I'd be one to mod these guys out pretty quickly, it is nice for them to be trying to diversify the barbarian's rosters. I need to start reading Procopius, see if maybe there's references to pikes with the Goths.

[EmperorBatman999]

"And so the bravest nations tore themselves to pieces. For then, I think, must have occurred a most remarkable spectacle, where one might see the Goths fighting with pikes, the Gepidae raging with the sword, the Rugi breaking off the spears in their own wounds, the Suavi fighting on foot, the Huns with bows, the Alani drawing up a battle-line of heavy-armed and the Heruli of light-armed warriors." - Jordanes on the Battle of Nedao.

I'm not quite sure of the accuracy of that, but that is perhaps where they got the assumption that Gothic warriors often used the pike. In BI, Goth spearmen fought with a phalanx-like formation as well.

[Ahiga]

Thanks Batman. I suppose then it's a matter of interpretation, but I've come to appreciate an open mind to the facts after doing my own research of late so I can't begrudge CA too much on that fact.

Let me see if I can dig up the latin or greek original, might help to see what term they use.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

The Grethungi were not the Ostrogoths...

Let me write a nutshell of 4th-5th century Gothic History:

There were about eight different Gothic groups between 376-480 AD. The relevant ones were the Tervingi, Grethungi, the Goths of Radagasius, and the Amali Goths. The Tervingi were allowed into the Roman Empire in 376, and when they revolted, the Grethungi whom had not been allowed to cross, entered the Empire as well. Both of them combined and fell under the leadership of Alatheus and Safrax, and later Fritigern, whom then defeated the Romans at the battles of Ad Salices and the battle of Adrianople. Theodosius campaigned against the Goths, ending the First Gothic war in 382.

Alaric soon after became leader of the Goths, and they were used as Foederati in the civil war between the East and the West, fighting at the Battle of the River Frigidus in 392 and helping Reunite the Empire. They revolted several times in the first decade of the 5th century, but were defeated by Stilicho who then used them to attack Dyrrhachium in his plan to unite the Empire under his Generalship. But Radagasius invaded under pressure from groups moving West due to the Huns, and his Goths were defeated and absorbed into the Roman Army. When Stilicho was assassinated, the Romans ordered the murder of the Gothic soldiers' families, and they revolted and joined Alaric while simultaneously crippling the Praesental Field Army, which lost a very large number of professional Roman troops. Alaric besieged Rome 3 times, demanding to be granted Stilicho's position and even raising an Emperor, as well as defeating a Roman army sent against him from Illyria. He sacked Rome, but died several months later while planning to invade Africa via Sicily.

The Goths of Alaric, which also now included a percentage of Huns, Heruli, and Alans, retreated into Gaul. In 414 they besieged Bazas in South Gaul, but the Alans of Goar, who had crossed the Rhine in 406 and joined the Goths, defected to the Romans and defeated them. The Goths retreated into Spain where they were defeated by Constantius III and settled as Foederati in Aquitainia in 416, between Burdigala and Tolosa.

With news of civil war after Honorius' death, the Aquitanian Goths laid siege to Arles, but were defeated by Aetius in 426. One of their generals, Sigisvult, entered Roman service with the Foederati and later would become Magister Utriusque Militiae Iunior. The Goths attempted to besiege Narbona in 431, again prying Roman weakness, but were defeated by Aetius once more. In 436 they revolted with their Burgundian allies in the 3rd real Gothic war, and laid siege to Narbona again. Aetius crushed the Burgundians with the help of his Hun Bucellarii, while Litorius came down from Aremorica with the Gallic Field Army and defeated the Goths outside the city in 437, and relieved the siege. In 438 Aetius personally defeated Theodoric (the current king of the Goths) at Mons Colubrarius, and Litorius pursued them to Tolosa and laid siege to the city. However, Litorius and Aetius' Hun Foederati were defeated by the Aquitanian Goths, who proceeded to ravage South Gaul. Aetius returned immediately and took command of the Army, defeating the Goths in a night ambush on their camp and ending the war, re-establishing the treaty with very favorable Roman terms.

The Aquitanian Goths then proceeded to fight with the Romans, but deserted the army in the pivotal Spanish campaign in 446, resulting in the defeat of Vitus and the loss of most of Spain to the Romans. They next appear joining the Gallic Coalition to fight Attila the Hun at the Battle of the Catalaunian Fields under Aetius, where Theodoric is killed and the Goths go into a rout, almost costing Aetius the Battle which ends in a stalemate thanks to the Alans of Sangiban and Sambida, and possibly a portion of Gothic Cavalry under Thorismund.

This is where the Amali Goths come in, who were founded under Valamir in the 440's, and fought the Aquitanian Goths with several other Gothic groups at Chalons. The Amali Goths would defeat the Huns in 454 and throw off their rule a few months after the Battle of Neado. They were re-settled as Foederati in Thrace, before later coming under the leadership of Theodoric the Great, who would establish the Ostrogothic Kingdom of Italy in 480.

Thorismund is unhappy as the Goths were not rewarded for participating in the battle, as Aetius considered them to be living up to the terms of their treaty. He lays siege to Arles in 453 but is dissuaded by Tonatius Ferreolus. He is then killed by Theodoric II, his brother, who restores the treaty and Frederic, another brother, is appointed honorary Magister Militum, and leads Gothic Foederati assisting Aetius in the successful reconquest of Spain in 453.

After Aetius' and Valentinian III's deaths, they support Avitus and raise him as Emperor: the first Barbarian group to ever do so, and in return they are granted the same "Socius et Amicus" status as Gaiseric, officially forming the "Vesigetae" or Visigothic Kingdom. They expand into Tarraconensis, but are defeated by Majorian in 458 who reduces them to Foederati Status. Assisting Majorian, they join the Foederati army he has assembled and help reconquer Spain, but after the failure of his Africa expedition (a plan Aetius had established in 453, when he reconquered about half of Spain), Majorian is assassinated by Ricimer and the Visigoths again are independent, defeating the Suebes in the 460's and invading much of East Spain. In 464 they attack the Romans in Lugdunensis, but are defeated by a coalition of the Romans under Aegidius' commander Paulinus, the Franks of Childeric (who had fought the Visigoths at Chalons) and the Scirii of Odovacar (who had accidentally been left behind by Attila after the campaign of 451). They all subsequently turn on each other, but the Visigoths defeat a later expedition of Romans and Aremoricans under Riothamus in 470. In 468 they finally obtain Arelate, and manage to finish off the Suebes in Spain, conquering all but Gallaecia, where the Suebes still have control. In 487 they hand over Syagrius, delaying war with the Franks until 492, when the Franks defeat them and conquer Aquitania. This effectively establishes the Visigothic Kingdom of Spain.

Meanwhile, Theodoric, under the Eastern Emperor Zeno, has been ordered to defeat Odoacer and re-establish Roman control in Italy. Instead, after several battles between 477-480, he establishes a new Kingdom of the Amali Goths, which would soon come to be known as the Ostrogoths.

"And so the bravest nations tore themselves to pieces. For then, I think, must have occurred a most remarkable spectacle, where one might see the Goths fighting with pikes, the Gepidae raging with the sword, the Rugi breaking off the spears in their own wounds, the Suavi fighting on foot, the Huns with bows, the Alani drawing up a battle-line of heavy-armed and the Heruli of light-armed warriors." - Jordanes on the Battle of Nedao.

Probably where they got it from, but this is one of those places where Cassiodorus is expressing his literary talent. All barbarian peoples used an 8 foot spear called a Contus, or heavy javelin called an Angon. The Spear was the weapon of the common man, although due to the abundance of looted or abandoned Roman equipment Swords and Armor were very common in the 5th Century AD, compared to the medieval era.

[Totalheadache]

actually pikes are mentioned

http://www.richardlemay.com/ENG/LIV/...Prophecy43.pdf

[NostalgiaFan]

Okay, I could be fine them for giving them a pike unit if it had some historical research, I could be fine with them A FORMATION with pikes if they were said to use it in them, But they for some reason decided that a barbarian tribe who had no contact with any faction that used a phalanx should for some reason use said formation in the exact same style despite being ridiculously outdated instead of making it different.

I mean what the CA could you be little less lazy, I mean if you do not want people to go on and on about attila being the same as rome 2 could you try to put more effort into making units like this seem more unique to themselves instead of being the exact same as something that was outdated almost a thousand years ago.

[Karnil Vark Khaitan]

Okay, I could be fine them for giving them a pike unit if it had some historical research, I could be fine with them A FORMATION with pikes if they were said to use it in them, But they for some reason decided that a barbarian tribe who had no contact with any faction that used a phalanx should for some reason use said formation in the exact same style despite being ridiculously outdated instead of making it different.

I mean what the CA could you be little less lazy, I mean if you do not want people to go on and on about attila being the same as rome 2 could you try to put more effort into making units like this seem more unique to themselves instead of being the exact same as something that was outdated almost a thousand years ago.

Allow me to be a bit critic here, what formation should they then use?

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Fulcum. Just like the Romans did. It was basically three-four rows of shields stacked on top of each other with pikes sticking through the gaps. And by pikes I mean 8 foot long spears.

[Linke]

There is even a Fulcum in Rome 2, not the best but there is no reason not to use that instead.