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Thread: Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

  1. #81
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

    Faith is a gift from God given to men and women brought to regeneration by God. We read that it is the same faith of Jesus Christ imparted or imputed to the new believer. So, what exactly is it? It is the surety that Jesus Christ died on their behalf all those years ago, something that has only recently been revealed to them by God Himself. So, when it is written that faith is believing in something unseen that is quite true in that Jesus did it for them all many years before, the inward revelation being felt more than seen.

  2. #82
    alex man142's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

    Faith is the most rational thing ever.

    John Locke put is this way: 1. Whatever God says is true. 2. God says X. 3. Ergo, X is true. There is no dichotomy between faith and reason.




  3. #83
    High Fist's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

    There is when one questions the validity of no. 1.
    The only self-discipline you need is to finish your sandwiches

  4. #84

    Default Re: Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

    Quote Originally Posted by High Fist View Post
    There is when one questions the validity of no. 1.
    Or context. God saying a thing 4000 years ago does not hold the same literal validity today, even if that thing 4000 years ago was a true command or a true divine order

  5. #85

    Default Re: Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnostic Christian Bishop View Post
    Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

    Faith is a way to quit using, "God given" power of Reason and Logic, and cause the faithful to embrace doctrines that moral people reject.
    Christians are often wrongly accused of cherry-picking, but in your case you really seem to be taking it to a whole other level.

    Faith is spoken of positively throughout the Bible, and especially in the New Testament - including the Gospels and the Pauline Epistles. In Matthew 9 alone there are three examples where Jesus praises the faith of those he heals:

    "And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee." (Matthew 9:2)

    "But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour." (Matthew 9:22)

    "Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you. And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it." (Matthew 9:29-30)

    I think the fundamental problem here Gnostic Christian Bishop is that you are attributing an incorrect meaning to the word "faith" in its Biblical context. Faith does not mean blindly believing something, as if it was somehow the opposite of evidence-based reasoning. Some people have used the word this way in recent times (often as a slander against Christians), but it did not always have this meaning. Faith as it is used in a Biblical context means more "trust", "hope" or "reliance".

    Quote Originally Posted by jockmcplop View Post
    I blame the early RC Church's emphasis on Paul for all the literalism in today's reading of the Bible. Looking at it from a non Christian point of view its totally ing obvious that the Bible is a myth, a story. I can see its symbolic meaning because i'm not blinded by the teaching of Paul. Turned the religion into a brutally effective virus.
    Actually, Paul often demonstrates a highly symbolic interpretation of the Old Testament and in particular the law. He calls many of the ordinances of the Old Testament "a shadow of things to come" - as things that existed to foreshadow the coming of Christ as Messiah. In this respect, Paul is very much in line with the interpreration of the Old Testament as shown by Jesus and the various New Testament authors. I believe you are attempting to conconct a totally false dichotomy here when you suggest a 'literal Paul' contradicts more metaphorical interpretations in the rest of scripture.

  6. #86
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

    Quote Originally Posted by alex man142 View Post
    Faith is the most rational thing ever.

    John Locke put is this way: 1. Whatever God says is true. 2. God says X. 3. Ergo, X is true. There is no dichotomy between faith and reason.
    The dichotomy comes into play when "X" is incompatible with observable reality and therefore cannot be called true, regardless of what some "God" allegedly "said", observable reality has a higher degree of credibility than some insane vague, subjective assertions by some obscure backwater deity or other that only a fraction of people believe in. For instance the assertion that God made light before the stars and the sun, the assertion of a global flood, implications that the universe is less than 10,000 years, old and so on and on and on and on and on and on. Faith is the opposite of reason, the precise and exact opposite, any reconciliation between the two concepts are purely coincidental and statistically unlikely: regardless they are correlative rather than causal.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  7. #87

    Default Re: Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    Faith is the opposite of reason, the precise and exact opposite, any reconciliation between the two concepts are purely coincidental and statistically unlikely: regardless they are correlative rather than causal.
    Faith, when used in a Biblical context, translates best as trust, hope or reliance. The idea of faith being blind belief in something is a more modern phenomenon.

  8. #88
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caledonian Rhyfelwyr View Post
    Faith, when used in a Biblical context, translates best as trust, hope or reliance.
    That is exactly what I said. Trust, hope, reliance etc in lieu of empirical verification, or reason, or rationality.

    The idea of faith being blind belief in something is a more modern phenomenon.
    It is a necessary phenomenon due to the modern advancement of science and empirically verified reality, these things being inherently in stark contrast of a worldview based on faith/trust/reliance or whatever softball synonym you prefer over blind-faith.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  9. #89

    Default Re: Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    That is exactly what I said. Trust, hope, reliance etc in lieu of empirical verification, or reason, or rationality.
    It is not at all the exact same as what you said, as can be seen from the fact that you took the liberty of adding the bolded part above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    It is a necessary phenomenon due to the modern advancement of science and empirically verified reality, these things being inherently in stark contrast of a worldview based on faith/trust/reliance or whatever softball synonym you prefer over blind-faith.
    If faith, trust and reliance are "softball synonyms" for blind-faith, then I think there must be a bit of a language barrier between us. To my mind they are quite clearly not synonymous.

    For example, you might say that you have faith in your government to rule justly because it is democratically elected, transparent, and has a history of fairness and accountability. Similarly, you might say that you trust in your nation's military to win a war because of it has a strong record from past conflicts. Likewise, you might say that you would rely on a parent to care for you when you are sick, because of the love they have always showed towards you.

    As you can see, these words in no way indicate a dependence upon blind faith, or indeed the absence of something reasonable or evidence-based to substantiate them. The above example also show the sort of faith that Christians have in their God.
    Last edited by Caledonian Rhyfelwyr; December 21, 2014 at 12:56 PM.

  10. #90
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

    Of course it is. The arguments for faith in deism is shaky at best, in one god specifically over another god there is no rhyme, reason, rationality, logic or sense in that position. It is almost entirely statistically based on where you were born.

  11. #91
    chriscase's Avatar Chairman Miao
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    Default Re: Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caledonian Rhyfelwyr View Post
    If faith, trust and reliance are "softball synonyms" for blind-faith, then I think there must be a bit of a language barrier between us. To my mind they are quite clearly not synonymous.

    For example, you might say that you have faith in your government to rule justly because it is democratically elected, transparent, and has a history of fairness and accountability. Similarly, you might say that you trust in your nation's military to win a war because of it has a strong record from past conflicts. Likewise, you might say that you would rely on a parent to care for you when you are sick, because of the love they have always showed towards you.

    As you can see, these words in no way indicate a dependence upon blind faith, or indeed the absence of something reasonable or evidence-based to substantiate them. The above example also show the sort of faith that Christians have in their God.
    That's a tidy bit of sleight of hand you're pulling there. Expecting a supernatural agency to "take care of us" in some eternal transcendent sense is categorically different from a reasoned expectation that one's parents may or may not continue to do what they may or may not have been doing up until now. If these things appear to be analogous to you, then we have a logic barrier.

    If all God does is the things we already have empirical, logical explanations for, where is the necessity of God? God becomes completely superfluous. God must do something inexplicable, something contrary to ordinary observed reality, in order to have any significance. This is why the conflation of religious faith with reasonable expectation is simply not valid.

    And still I have to come back to the same question - I ask and there is never an answer - if "Faith" is so commonplace, so inevitable as a routine function of daily life, where is the virtue? If we accept reasonable expectation as the equivalent of Faith, I have no choice but Faith, nor does anyone else. Where is the virtue in a Faith that is so ubiquitous no one has any choice but to fall under its shadow? This makes no sense at all. It's surely not what the Church fathers of antiquity had in mind.
    Last edited by chriscase; December 22, 2014 at 10:26 PM.

    Why is it that mysteries are always about something bad? You never hear there's a mystery, and then it's like, "Who made cookies?"
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  12. #92

    Default Re: Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

    ^^Exactly. It is one of the fundamental pillars of Christianity (and most other major religions as applicable, I suppose) to believe in God despite a lack of evidence. The story of the "Doubting Thomas" is the best example for that -- true faith is to believe without seeing or touching the wounds (or God, for that matter).

    In other words, Christianity in particular and religion in general are irrational by their very nature. If there was a clear rational explanation or evidence, religious "faith" would be worthless.
    Curious Curialist curing the Curia of all things Curial.

  13. #93

    Default Re: Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    Of course it is. The arguments for faith in deism is shaky at best, in one god specifically over another god there is no rhyme, reason, rationality, logic or sense in that position. It is almost entirely statistically based on where you were born.
    I was simply demonstrating that faith is not necessarily always unsubstantiated by evidence or logical reasoning.

    You are talking about the strength of the logical reasoning behind faith in a particular God, and that is a whole different matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by chriscase View Post
    That's a tidy bit of sleight of hand you're pulling there. Expecting a supernatural agency to "take care of us" in some eternal transcendent sense is categorically different from a reasoned expectation that one's parents may or may not continue to do what they may or may not have been doing up until now. If these things appear to be analogous to you, then we have a logic barrier.
    As I said to Denny I was simply demonstrating that faith can be substantiated with evidence - it is not necessarily baseless. Himster and myself were debating the meaning of the word. If you want to start talking about how strong the evidence is for various faith-based beliefs, that is a different issue entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by chriscase View Post
    And still I have to come back to the same question - I ask and there is never an answer - if "Faith" is so commonplace, so inevitable as a routine function of daily life, where is the virtue? If we accept reasonable expectation as the equivalent of Faith, I have no choice but Faith, nor does anyone else. Where is the virtue in a Faith that is so ubiquitous no one has any choice but to fall under its shadow? This makes no sense at all. It's surely not what the Church fathers of antiquity had in mind.
    It is faith in God and as Christ as your Saviour that matters. Do you rely on God to provide for you and strengthen you? Do you trust in Christ as your Saviour? This is what Christian faith is about.

  14. #94
    chriscase's Avatar Chairman Miao
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    Default Re: Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caledonian Rhyfelwyr View Post
    It is faith in God and as Christ as your Saviour that matters. Do you rely on God to provide for you and strengthen you? Do you trust in Christ as your Saviour? This is what Christian faith is about.
    So now you want to fall back to the position that religious faith is not the same thing as ordinary, reasonable expectation based on observation. You can't have it both ways. If religious faith is not the same thing as ordinary expectation supported by observation, then you have admitted the entire line of equivocation (above) is no more than the most cynical of sophistries.

    Why is it that mysteries are always about something bad? You never hear there's a mystery, and then it's like, "Who made cookies?"
    - Demetri Martin

  15. #95

    Default Re: Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

    Quote Originally Posted by chriscase View Post
    So now you want to fall back to the position that religious faith is not the same thing as ordinary, reasonable expectation based on observation. You can't have it both ways. If religious faith is not the same thing as ordinary expectation supported by observation, then you have admitted the entire line of equivocation (above) is no more than the most cynical of sophistries.
    No.

    I have many rational arguments that bolster my faith in God.

  16. #96
    chriscase's Avatar Chairman Miao
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    Default Re: Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caledonian Rhyfelwyr View Post
    No.

    I have many rational arguments that bolster my faith in God.
    Maybe so. However, that misconflation of confidence based on observation with religious faith wasn't one of them. It was a fallacious argument.

    Why is it that mysteries are always about something bad? You never hear there's a mystery, and then it's like, "Who made cookies?"
    - Demetri Martin

  17. #97
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caledonian Rhyfelwyr View Post
    Faith, when used in a Biblical context, translates best as trust, hope or reliance. The idea of faith being blind belief in something is a more modern phenomenon.
    Caledonian Rhyfelwyr,

    Absolutely! Trust, hope and most certainly reliance that Jesus Christ died on a cross that our separation from God through our sin would be washed away by His blood, meaning that no longer would we be under condemnation by God any longer. The writer to the Hebrews exemplifies this by saying that God himself says of them that are now saved, He never now remembers them as having been sinners. That is a wonderful statement and it is the faith of Jesus Christ imputed to all them that do believe who are certain of that hope, reliance and trust that He being God cannot lie. That is faith.

  18. #98
    xcorps's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

    I was simply demonstrating that faith can be substantiated with evidence
    Not spiritual faith. In fact, the opposite is true when you are discussing spiritual faith.
    If you have spiritual faith, you have a belief in the unknowable. Secular faith is the belief in the unknown. Secular faith is supported by facts and evidence. Spiritual faith is supported by a lack of facts and evidence.

    Secular faith is objective, seeks absolutes and demands answers.

    Spiritual faith is subjective, defies absolutes and provides answers.


    I have many rational arguments that bolster my faith in God.
    You might think you do.

    What you actually have are rational arguments that you hope give leverage in attempts to justify and apply some sort of measure to your faith. Which isn't necessary at all. You have no need to "bolster" your faith. A crisis of faith is easily dealt with. Just leap.
    Last edited by xcorps; January 05, 2015 at 01:43 AM.
    "Every idea is an incitement. It offers itself for belief and if believed it is acted on unless some other belief outweighs it or some failure of energy stifles the movement at its birth. The only difference between the expression of an opinion and an incitement in the narrower sense is the speaker's enthusiasm for the result. Eloquence may set fire to reason." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

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