"Greek recession is over" - Are we sure about it?

[Basil II the B.S]

Massively over valued currency relative to the economy is positive.

+1 for Basil and economics. Or is that +1 for bias or, hmph hard to say.

Positive thing was referred to the lower interest rates Southern European countries got after joining the Euro.

[Ludicus]

"If Germany really is as pro-European as its politicians argue, its grand coalition should be able to convince enough Germans that a grand bargain is in the country’s own interests...
The debtors have put Germany under little pressure to share the burden or to reform its own economy.
There appear to be two principal reasons for this. One is that many members of the eurozone see Germany as a model to emulate rather than a significant part of the problem. The second reason is that even those who understand that the structure of the German economy is a threat to the stability of the euro have been circumspect about openly criticising Germany for fear of provoking a backlash against the euro in the country.
The eurozone's German problem
Simon Tilford , deputy director of Centre for European Reform.

---------------
Wes should keep in mind that the ECB finances private banks at rates close to zero and the latter then lend to states at exorbitant rates.

According to an expert report commissioned by the German Constitutional court (2013)

"The fact that the EU glossed over the Maastricht Treaty by repeatedly assuring investors that investments in Southern Europe were safe, desirable and wise also contributed to investors’ recklessness. The assumption that states could not go bankrupt contradicts the no-bail-out clause of the Maastricht Treaty (article 125 TFEU), which only makes sense under the assumption that such a bankruptcy is possible.
The regulatory deficits meant that banks and insurance companies in the North gorged on government bonds from Southern Europe, all for the sake of earning a few dozen more basis points in interest income, and granted Southern European banks a lot of cheap interbank loans that were passed on to private clients and governments triggering an inflationary investment boom.An excessive credit flow into Southern European created an inflationary credit bubble that robbed Southern European countries of their competitiveness and created mass unemployment that can barely be controlled "

[UselessPoster]

So greece has:

Debt as % of GDP: 212.57%

Interest per Year to pay: 27,587,524,337€

Interest rises 875€ per second

source is going by http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/greece

unemployment is on 25~% figure

recession over? even if going full technical, not much longer for technical recession to re-start again.

Greece gov budget is in its dark ages aswell, going by trading economics

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/gree...ernment-budget

Sorry but I think it's gameover for you guys, you apparently seem to have no decent future in the euro, this assuming that the euro has a future

THIS IS SPARTA!!!...

Oh No, This is greece NVM.

[Garbarsardar]

We are still in dire straits. In the following video, thirsty policemen steal bottles of water from a kiosk and beat the owners who protest. The cost of a bottle of water is 0.50 Euros, so, I guess, we are still in deep recession.

WARNING: Disturbing content for non-neonazi viewers

[Denny Crane!]

Positive thing was referred to the lower interest rates Southern European countries got after joining the Euro.

So one positive in amongst a ****storm of negatives.

I mean is it really surprising to you, really, that all of the weaker economies that initially joined the Euros are suffering?

But they got the cheaper currency.

Mint.

[Hobbes]

We are still in dire straits. In the following video, thirsty policemen steal bottles of water from a kiosk and beat the owners who protest. The cost of a bottle of water is 0.50 Euros, so, I guess, we are still in deep recession.

WARNING: Disturbing content for non-neonazi viewers

Greek riot police are the worst of thugs. Truly dangerous individuals.

[alhoon]

Greek riot police are the worst of thugs. Truly dangerous individuals.

While the officer is not excused for taking the bottled water, it should be noted that according to the video they've been provoked and called all shorts of names beforehand.
It also seems ... fishy that there are parts cut from the video etc. and it jumps to "a minute ago a riot officer stole a bottle of water".

Yes, there are a lot of thugs in the riot police, but not as many as SYRIZA would have you believe. And while an officer grabbing a bottle of water without paying is bad the harassment they received beforehand seemed unwarranted.

Another hilarious part is that what I get as the owners of the shop, man and woman , appear rapidly putting on their shirts as they go out and tell the police that the immigrant they beat is actually working for them there. Could you take a guess what they were doing in the back of the shop while the poor guy was selling stuff in the front?

[The Wandering Storyteller]

No.

Niether the funds from the EU have helped.

Unemployement is still rampant.

Either China may step in to help Greece, but as far as I understand the Greek concept of overspending caused this in the first place. I don't know why the Greeks remained attached to the Euro, when they should get rid of it.

I cannot see any improvement unless a competent PM and finance minister are put on the works to help Greece survive.

[Hobbes]

Yes, there are a lot of thugs in the riot police, but not as many as SYRIZA would have you believe.

Greek riot police are brainwashed violent racists that view the average citizen as a criminal. Νot that the rest of our police force is much better.

the Greek concept of overspending

Didn't know it was a Greek concept. I guess what the nationalists say is true, then; we did invent everything.

[Stavroforos]

Greek riot police are brainwashed violent racists that view the average citizen as a criminal. Νot that the rest of our police force is much better.

Most of the "student" "protesters" are brainwashed idiots as well though, so it's a match made in heaven. In any case, I can't take the side of people who routinely take the street just to damage property, attack police, and block traffic.

[The Wandering Storyteller]

Greek riot police are brainwashed violent racists that view the average citizen as a criminal. Νot that the rest of our police force is much better.


Didn't know it was a Greek concept. I guess what the nationalists say is true, then; we did invent everything.

Well it was not a concept, I miswrote that but the Greeks overspent quite a lot of money. Before joining the monetary union with Germany, the nations knew that Greece was not prepared due to its ridicolous amounts of overspending.

But yes the Anicent Greeks did invent a lot of stuff.

[Hobbes]

Most of the "student" "protesters" are brainwashed idiots as well though, so it's a match made in heaven. In any case, I can't take the side of people who routinely take the street just to damage property, attack police, and block traffic.

I wouldn't say they're all brainwashed. I mean, you can definitely say that about the Communist Youth, KKE and people of their ilk, but those guys are always well organized, guarded and never cause any damage, or at least there have not been cases where they did so intentionally. As for those who do damage property, you have to remember that some of them are tolerated by the police force or directly cooperate with them, and there has been evidence to support this fact. Of course, there are anarchist groups that cause a lot of damage, and who directly contribute to the shaping of the chaotic image of Greek riots that is well known all over the world. I cannot support these people, the same way that I cannot support terrorists such as 17N, Fire Nuclei etc, but I sure as hell won't support the riot police either.

[Stavroforos]

I wouldn't say they're all brainwashed. I mean, you can definitely say that about the Communist Youth, KKE and people of their ilk, but those guys are always well organized, guarded and never cause any damage, or at least there have not been cases where they did so intentionally. As for those who do damage property, you have to remember that some of them are tolerated by the police force or directly cooperate with them, and there has been evidence to support this fact. Of course, there are anarchist groups that cause a lot of damage, and who directly contribute to the shaping of the chaotic image of Greek riots that is well known all over the world. I cannot support these people, the same way that I cannot support terrorists such as 17N, Fire Nuclei etc, but I sure as hell won't support the riot police either.

I believe it was Thomas Jefferson who said "the pavements of Athens must be watered with the blood of the communists from time to time."

[alhoon]

Greek riot police are brainwashed violent racists that view the average citizen as a criminal. Νot that the rest of our police force is much better.

No, they are not. They include unfortunately a good deal of those. Over 25% or something in Golden Dawn IIRC. The rest, about viewing the average citizen as a criminal are pure SYRIZA crap. Oh, sorry. SYRIZA is 26% now, not a bunch of unwashed anarchists anymore. Pure Antarsya crap.

Most of the "student" "protesters" are brainwashed idiots as well though, so it's a match made in heaven. In any case, I can't take the side of people who routinely take the street just to damage property, attack police, and block traffic.

The "strong core" of the student protesters, the small percentage that goes more or less on any protest, that includes 30-year-old highschool dropouts, brainwashed leftwings from the universities and angry teenagers in their 25's? Yes.

HOWEVER a great deal of youth and students are reasonable people that after years of unemployment, without any prospect of starting a business or family, that have to work 10 hours/day and still rely on their parents to go through life... are angry and there's a reason for that aside of the need to burn policemen and break stuff because your mommy was hard on you when you were 13.

[Basil II the B.S]

So one positive in amongst a ****storm of negatives.

I mean is it really surprising to you, really, that all of the weaker economies that initially joined the Euros are suffering?

But they got the cheaper currency.

Mint.

Though currency manipulation doesn't solve budget issues at all. See Japan. Southern Europeans suffer because they messed up, not specifically because of the Euro.

HOWEVER a great deal of youth and students are reasonable people that after years of unemployment, without any prospect of starting a business or family, that have to work 10 hours/day and still rely on their parents to go through life... are angry and there's a reason for that aside of the need to burn policemen and break stuff because your mommy was hard on you when you were 13.

Greek youths should be pissed at their parents because they robbed them. Too bad they are either too stupid or brainwashed or ignorant to realize it.

[Denny Crane!]

Did I say currency manipulation was at the root of it? Did you hear me say over valued currency? That has nothing to do with the ability to manipulate currency that is the root of the problem not the solution, fairly certain I did not mention currency manipulation.

But you read what you want to read because you clearly are constructing whatever narrative to believe what you want to believe. Oh dear

[Knight of Heaven]

Though currency manipulation doesn't solve budget issues at all

Wrong.

Normally when a country is in recession, the value of its national currency falls. This makes it cheaper for companies within that country to export goods. Companies can sell goods abroad, which boosts economic growth, and helps alleviate the economic problems(and thus Tax revenue is higher wich as an effect on any budget. This is called currency devaluation.

However, the problem for the weakest members of the Eurozone is that they don’t have a national currency to devalue. Instead they are a member of the Euro — which has some strong economies in it (most notably Germany) — which is keeping its value high. So devaluation isn’t an option for these nations. Unless they leave the Euro and re-adopt their own currency, which will almost certainly fall in value.

Also you are easy to blame the Socialist goverment of Portugal, but you know it was the only one goverment in 2000s that were able to solve the deficit issue until today, in 2007 specialy, only to see it crumble in 2008 due to worldwide crisis, the goverment chose bailout BPN ( private bank) with fear of contagion, back then was probably a sensible thing to do. In fact the private debt is alot worse then the public debt, and the public debt in large part is what it is because of the private debt.

You also make it sound this debt its a thing you can control in the economy, the fact that you have weaker non competitive economies with a high and strong currency, with cheap credit avaiable since 2002 to 2008, any economy will contract debt in order to invest so it can keep up with the currency standard, its how economies behave given this conditions, as we all know there was litle or uneficient regulation in place because "reasons" we are tired to talk about...
The problem is You constantly point to supposedly cultural traits and populist issues as causes, where those things have litle if any effect in the matter or in the grand scheme of things. The mere fact that this economies share limited or no growth for ages, and a certain disparity to the most developed economies in the north has everything to do with it. They were not ready for the euro, to simply put, and this crisis was forseen and spoken in 1992 at Maastricht, but the nations of europe chose to ignore it, after all the euro represents more then a shared currency, it represents a political ideology and dream, of a future EU.
A future that is now in jeopardy, at its worse, and at its best is seeing the bigest crisis yet, politicaly, economicaly, and socialogical so it seems.

[Basil II the B.S]

Wrong.

Normally when a country is in recession, the value of its national currency falls. This makes it cheaper for companies within that country to export goods. Companies can sell goods abroad, which boosts economic growth, and helps alleviate the economic problems(and thus Tax revenue is higher wich as an effect on any budget. This is called currency devaluation.

Which at best would have a (debatable) effect on deficits.

And devaluation just makes your stuff cheaper, if your stuff is cheaper then your revenue is lower, plus the stuff you buy is more expensive and the revenue from tariffs is lower as well. Plus your interest rates rise, adding to the expenses. This argument that devaluation would solve all of the Southern European problems is a big lie.

Once again, you aren't going to solve your budget problems by making your currency worth toilet paper. At best you are postponing the problems, leaving future generations the burden to solve it. Sounds familiar?

Did I say currency manipulation was at the root of it? Did you hear me say over valued currency? That has nothing to do with the ability to manipulate currency that is the root of the problem not the solution, fairly certain I did not mention currency manipulation.

Then explain your argument.

[Denny Crane!]

Which at best would have a (debatable) effect on deficits.

And devaluation just makes your stuff cheaper, if your stuff is cheaper then your revenue is lower, plus the stuff you buy is more expensive and the revenue from tariffs is lower as well. Plus your interest rates rise, adding to the expenses. This argument that devaluation would solve all of the Southern European problems is a big lie.

Once again, you aren't going to solve your budget problems by making your currency worth toilet paper. At best you are postponing the problems, leaving future generations the burden to solve it. Sounds familiar?



Then explain your argument.

Explain to me where Spains mistake was simply btw. They paid down all their debt and were not profligate before the crisis.

Over valued currency is not the same thing as missing currency manipulation (though it clearly helps if you are in a country that should be operating with a currency at half the value).

Rather than let me explain let me ask, can you see no problems arising from a weak economy adopting a strong currency, does that seem like a good plan to you? If you really dont see the problem I shall explain.

[Hobbes]

No, they are not. They include unfortunately a good deal of those. Over 25% or something in Golden Dawn IIRC. The rest, about viewing the average citizen as a criminal are pure SYRIZA crap. Oh, sorry. SYRIZA is 26% now, not a bunch of unwashed anarchists anymore. Pure Antarsya crap.

SYRIZA and ANTARSYA are not anarchists, just idiots.