(Arc 1) [Genesis] Tribe: Technology and Tools

[Dirty Chai]

Here we will talk about our Work-In-Progress people and their culture.

The exemplar questions below will help us flesh this out.

Player Tribe Generation

Questions to ask about who we are: # It’s better to create our own noun words for items # Where do we live? A desert/arid region? A flat steppe? A flat-topped plateau? A hilly plain? Are there mountains nearby or dividing the expanse? Are there forests? Many or a few? What is the yearly rainfall like? What kind of game (animals) are in the area? What about flora (pertaining to herbs and edibles)? Any rivers? Large or small? What kind of horses do we have? Are they large, small, or an average size? Are they strong or agile (or both)? Does the breed have a name? Are they specific to our lands? What climates do they prefer (besides our own)? How long does our oral history span back? Is there a written language yet? What kind of language do we speak? What does it sound like? Do neighboring tribes share a heritage with us? Are there others that do not? Are we part of a larger kindred or are we completely alien in origin to our neighbors? What kind of ethnic traits are seen to be the common traits of our people? Do our neighbors share these or similar ethnic traits? Do they share an ethnic history with us, and do we both recognize such relation? What sorts of things do we believe in, religiously and/or spiritually? What kind of stories are handed down to us from our forebears? Do we have gods, spirits, demons, etc? Do we have individuals who serve religious or spiritual roles in our families and community? What about our neighbors? What kind of clothes do we wear? How do we treat hair and facial hair? Do we bathe often or once in a while? How? Do we value cleanliness? What about our horses, should they be kept clean and prim? Do we have formalities and informalities in communication and social behavior? What kind of herds do we have? What kinds of food do we commonly eat? What do we consider delicacies? Do we have foods/spices/drinks/etc that are considered special or sacred or formal or regal? What kind of weapons/tools do we favor the most (Bow is a must*)? Do we like spears, swords, etc more than others? How do we shape and style these weapons/tools? Do we see these weapons/tools as simply tools or do we put high stock and respect/care into them? What kind of abodes do we use (ex. Tipis, Yurts, Tents, etc)? How big are they? What kind of possessions do we travel and wander with? How big are our families, on average? How many family members does one of these abodes fit? How do we treat gender roles? Are there particular roles in society that are filled by either gender? When do our children come of age? How do we raise them, typically? How do we organize our hunting and war parties? Are they the same thing? How many individuals typically make up such a party? How are they bound together (family, etc)? How many such parties does our tribe typically have? Is there a word for this division? Are there larger divisions multiplied by this division (ex. 10 to 100)? What kind of organizational structure do we use for society? Do we follow a leading family chieftain? Is succession, by default, hereditary? Is it a more meritocratic system among family members? What kind of armor do we have, if we have any? Is ironworking common among us, or is metal armor an elite accoutrement? What do we call ourselves? Is this the common ethnonym for us? Is this the name of our tribe, or just the larger umbrella of peoples that we fall under? If the latter, what do we call our tribe/community specifically? What kind of art do we typically have? What kind of symbols are common? What do they mean? Do we have banners that espouse us? Are there many? Have we encountered many peoples outside of our tribal region? How familiar are we with them? Are they but distant rumors or are they known and familiar neighbors? Have these foreign peoples interacted with us militarily, or with our neighbors or ancestors? Do we trade far and wide?

[Dirty Chai]

Some things that have been talked about:
- Afghan-like physical appearance; this is a middle ground for the different looks people seemed to want.
- Lances and/or sabers
- Primitive bone-and-hide tipis or more ornate Eurasian tents
- Small but sturdy horse breed with incredible endurance and good acceleration; Very "bond-able" and intelligent. Color(s) has not been mentioned yet.
- Iron being provided to us from nearby plateau people, so far known as the "Hill People"; we in turn give them hides and other animal goods
- More loose-flowing clothes for an arid climate v.s. little to no clothes at all; Clothes should be woven, perhaps silk, felt, linen, and/or brocade. Maybe some wool.
- Scale armor for our more elite individuals; like this, sewn onto pieces of hide/cloth/leather, and/or like this.
(The sewn part makes good sense; we don't want big, heavy pieces of metal heating up and weighing us down)

[McScottish]

So we're likely on a rather hot, yet not desert, savannah (or within a basin, possibly)- now take a look at the people(s) who live within these environments in the real world, the tribes of Africa essentially. They wear (apart from modern clothing) little to no clothing, yet I would not call them 'stone age' either, not that I personally have any problem with that.

In short, I'd go for loose-fitting linen and/or some woollen garments- less or not, but I don't think the envrionment really warrants Arabic-style clothing so much as Massai.

My personal opinion is a level of tech, and indeed a society, not all too dissimiliar from the tribal societies of antiquity I.E. Not exactly stone age (think of the 'Celts'- not exactly living in caves when the Romans got to them...) yet not light years ahead of other civlisations either. This could also help with social mobility and straitifcation, such as the nobility having better arms and so forth.

As for weapons, I'd say there are two obvious options;

1) The quintessential recurve bow, symbolic of nomadic hordes such as the Huns and the Mongols. Need not necessarily be a recurve bow either, could be a small-bow, or even a longer hunting bow.

2) We go for the 'Ostrogoth' option I.E. Lighter weighted lancea/javelin type weapons paired with a sword/sabre (a tulwar would be my ideal choice, that or a straight-bladed weapon. Spatha anyone?) and, possibly, some form of light-weight shield...or not.

Scale mail, or even just hardened/boiled leather, would probably be a good bet for armour for the lower warriors, with helmets and so forth for those that earn them.

[Dirty Chai]

Maasai*, you mean?
If you're going in that direction, then clothing from India and Indianzed lands (Southeast Asia) are also down that alley.

[Ace_General]

So we're likely on a rather hot, yet not desert, savannah (or within a basin, possibly)- now take a look at the people(s) who live within these environments in the real world, the tribes of Africa essentially. They wear (apart from modern clothing) little to no clothing, yet I would not call them 'stone age' either, not that I personally have any problem with that.

In short, I'd go for loose-fitting linen and/or some woollen garments- less or not, but I don't think the envrionment really warrants Arabic-style clothing so much as Massai.

My personal opinion is a level of tech, and indeed a society, not all too dissimiliar from the tribal societies of antiquity I.E. Not exactly stone age (think of the 'Celts'- not exactly living in caves when the Romans got to them...) yet not light years ahead of other civlisations either. This could also help with social mobility and straitifcation, such as the nobility having better arms and so forth.

As for weapons, I'd say there are two obvious options;

1) The quintessential recurve bow, symbolic of nomadic hordes such as the Huns and the Mongols. Need not necessarily be a recurve bow either, could be a small-bow, or even a longer hunting bow.

2) We go for the 'Ostrogoth' option I.E. Lighter weighted lancea/javelin type weapons paired with a sword/sabre (a tulwar would be my ideal choice, that or a straight-bladed weapon. Spatha anyone?) and, possibly, some form of light-weight shield...or not.

Scale mail, or even just hardened/boiled leather, would probably be a good bet for armour for the lower warriors, with helmets and so forth for those that earn them.

IDK, the Gauls were pretty close to the level of tech and development to the romans they just had different societal priorities

But on weaponry, I say we go towards using the recurve bow, and use sabers and lances as secondaries(with nobles going towards the lance)

And on design, the Tulwar is a fircesome cutting weapon, but the grip of it forces you to hold it at a 45 degree angle so you have rather short reach and can pretty much only chop. A great weapon, Im sure you could almost cut a dude in half with it, you cant move your wirst forward and extend the weapon and do the longer range, more percise push cuts and stabbing you want to do when your fighting on horseback.

Like one of the tatics the Cossacks would do with their long, gaurdless, slightly curved and very sharp Shashkas


They would ride up to say a pole or french calvaryman and slice either the reins of the horse, using the reach of the weapon, slice the tendons of the neck on the sword side of their opponet and hopefully cut an artery on the neck and ride off and then in either case ride up and finish the job with a cut to the head or neck. Interestingly enough these troops were very effective against lancers as they were skilled enough to parry the points of the lances with sabers, then "ride" the length of the lance up with their swords and use the momentum of both horses to deliever a cut to the lancer that would litterally sometimes cut people in half

Another note on lancers is if your opponent gets inside your point, you are pretty much screwed unless maybe you draw a pistol really fast(but we wouldnt have one of those). I remember reading I think it was marshal Ney was ambushed by a Prussian lancer and ducked the point, grabbed the lancer by the collar and threw him off his horse and capped him in the head with a dueling pistol

I say for saber design we dont go with the full classical saber, but a very simple, slightly bend gaurdless sword of decent length.

And for balence reasons, unless one is an armored noble, the lance is not a main weapon, but more a one shot weapon of a sharpened stick, in which it is used, thrown down then you either wheel off, or switch to a saber, or if you want to get down and dirty with another horseman that sythian hatchet thing

Heres a video of the use of the saber on horseback


IDK, I have fought with most Mideavel weapons on foot and my ex girlfriend used to do mounted combat and I have read huge amounts about this stuff, so Im not just an autist or talking out my butt lol

[Xion]

-I would prefer Eurasian tents, made from the hide of herd animals for the average tribesman and lower ranking warrior, while higher ranking ones and the chieftain's tent are made from the hide of a game animal, dependent on what we determine is around.
-For horse color(s), perhaps dun, bay, black, grey, and white? With dun and bay being the most common.
-Loose-flowing clothing made from linen, while the higher ranking members of the tribe may have brocade/silk or another type of fabric that is not common amongst the tribe.
- I agree with McScottish that hardened/boiled leather would be a suitable armor for lower warriors, while the upper warriors would have scale armor, perhaps in the fashion of the second picture posted by BF?

[Zectorman]

-Im with Xion on the Tent Design. I think the leaders tents should hold host to large clan like gatherings. That being said i think our "Nation" should be made up of multiple tribes/families where a leader maybe voted in? Or maybe a tribal council of sorts?

- Horse colors I like the Tan spotted with white like a Mustang (Hidalgo XD)

-Im also the same mind of Xion in terms of what the tribe wears. Billowing cloths, and maybe colorful silks we trade or take for the "nobles" within our tribe.

-I think our lower warriors will not wear much for armor, probably staying light for hit and run tactics, maybe light leather torso armor? While definantly Scaled armor for out higher up warriors. I also vote for the first pics representation.

[Dirty Chai]

(Please post your thoughts about terrain in the "Starting Climate" thread)

- I also agree on tents with Xion and Zectorman.
- Horse Colors: I like cremey white/yellow myself.

[Adamat]

I would prefer dun horses. I like the tents idea as well. Perhaps the higher-ranking individuals would also wear some sort of jewellery, such as colorful bead chains and such?

[Dirty Chai]

I'd settle for dun horses.

Ornate jewelry is possible.

[McScottish]

What I seem to be getting, thus far, is a certain blend of Middle-Eastern (Indian and Persian) melded with tribal ideas. I think, while I'm giving opinions, that we should attempt to remain on at least a coherent line...with this I mean such things as sticking to a firm idea of what we want; do we want more nomadic mounted warriors (Hun, Mongol-esque) or so we want nomadic horsemen non-related to this ideal, such as Sarmatians, Arabic horsemen, Ostrogoths and so forth.

In the first case our people would be more of a lightly armed/little armoured hit-and-run fighting force, armed with the bow, who value horse-flesh and likely slaves taken in raids. I doubt they would encourage, even scorning, such things as bead adornments and silks, as well as scale armour likely being one of the highest forms of armour amongt them.

The second case, methinks, would lend itself more to a trading society but also to the Mid-Eastern image which seems to be developing here.

Sadly, all I can think of are Parthian horsemen, living on an African plain, pierced like Persians from 300, mounted on steppe ponies, and wearing flowing and poofy robes of silks.

Then again, I suppose that would also tie in to cultural norms I.E. Would silks/soft materials be seen as effeminate? Is effeminacy a bad thing in this culture? Does a man that adorns himself in gold act like a woman, but one who takes the ears or such of his enemy prove that he is a warrior?

Just food for thought.P.S.

I really care little for the colour of the horses, but I'd say I like darker colours.

I like the tent ideas thus far...aaaaaand, I'd actually be up for straight-bladed weapons and axes rather than sabres, but that's personal choice.

Oh, and as for armour;



?

[Ace_General]

What I seem to be getting, thus far, is a certain blend of Middle-Eastern (Indian and Persian) melded with tribal ideas. I think, while I'm giving opinions, that we should attempt to remain on at least a coherent line...with this I mean such things as sticking to a firm idea of what we want; do we want more nomadic mounted warriors (Hun, Mongol-esque) or so we want nomadic horsemen non-related to this ideal, such as Sarmatians, Arabic horsemen, Ostrogoths and so forth.

In the first case our people would be more of a lightly armed/little armoured hit-and-run fighting force, armed with the bow, who value horse-flesh and likely slaves taken in raids. I doubt they would encourage, even scorning, such things as bead adornments and silks, as well as scale armour likely being one of the highest forms of armour amongt them.

The second case, methinks, would lend itself more to a trading society but also to the Mid-Eastern image which seems to be developing here.

Sadly, all I can think of are Parthian horsemen, living on an African plain, pierced like Persians from 300, mounted on steppe ponies, and wearing flowing and poofy robes of silks.

Then again, I suppose that would also tie in to cultural norms I.E. Would silks/soft materials be seen as effeminate? Is effeminacy a bad thing in this culture? Does a man that adorns himself in gold act like a woman, but one who takes the ears or such of his enemy prove that he is a warrior?

Just food for thought.P.S.

I really care little for the colour of the horses, but I'd say I like darker colours.

I like the tent ideas thus far...aaaaaand, I'd actually be up for straight-bladed weapons and axes rather than sabres, but that's personal choice.

Oh, and as for armour;



?

Bro, you think of Iranic steppe people and all you can think of is a bunch of effeminate dudes in silks and furs half naked covered in gold.......c'mooooon man,

If you wanna see some Iranic and turkic groups that didnt dress like well, something I dont wanna say with the new TOS

Bulgars, Kipchayks, Saka, Tajiks, Kygriz, Balochs, Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Avars, Dzungars, Cumans, Tatars, Seljuks, Khazars, Azeris and Yakuts.

Bruuuuuhhhhhh, do you even, like, Inner Eurasia?


The other thing is, the ostrogoths, while being somewhat a horse culture were not a nomad culture any more then early modern poles or Hungarians or Cossacks. Pretty much every nomadic culture after the mongols claimed their leadership descended from the clan of Ghengis, and they emulated the mongols poltically and tatically to a greater or lesser extent.

This is more of what Im thinking when were talking about inner Eurasian Indo-Iranian and Turkic Nomads

Massive Pic dump of Various Magyars, Cumans, turkic peoples etc

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Dirty Chai]

Sadly, all I can think of are Parthian horsemen, living on an African plain, pierced like Persians from 300, mounted on steppe ponies, and wearing flowing and poofy robes of silks.

Narrow-minded view of the Indo-Iranian cultural sphere much?
I suppose we're fair, because I see Maori as sumos with sticks.

The second case, methinks, would lend itself more to a trading society but also to the Mid-Eastern image which seems to be developing here.

I don't actually see how or why you divide those into two groups.
They aren't necessarily different.
Mongols probably didn't do a whole lot of trading pre-empire because they weren't hogging any trade routes.
After empire, all they had to do was protect the trade passing through their lands to profit.

Consider if we are on a major trading passage. This should really determine how "ornate" we are as a people.

Then again, I suppose that would also tie in to cultural norms I.E. Would silks/soft materials be seen as effeminate? Is effeminacy a bad thing in this culture? Does a man that adorns himself in gold act like a woman, but one who takes the ears or such of his enemy prove that he is a warrior?

I'd so no, mostly. But it depends on what you mean as effeminate or what this culture means is effeminate.
It can be simply puzzling/confusing to many people to see a man acting exactly as how a woman is more expected to behave.
Or do you just mean with beads and jewelry?

Furthermore, I don't think Addy or Xion (or whoever it was) meant for us to be all pierced up.
Look at the Maasai you even brought up: they just mean like that.

]I really care little for the colour of the horses, but I'd say I like darker colours.

I like the tent ideas thus far...aaaaaand, I'd actually be up for straight-bladed weapons and axes rather than sabres, but that's personal choice.

Oh, and as for armour;



?

@weapons,
I did think of suggesting the macuahuitl, but I don't think it'd be a very effective weapon against metal armor or very good for horse-back swordsmanship.

@armor,
I'm sticking by scale armor that is sewn onto pieces of leather or cloth; these are squares and rectangles that you tie onto yourself.

[Dark Storm]

To be honest I think it'll be difficult to create the tribe/dress/weapons until we have a firm idea on environment, then we can more easily see what would suit the area

[Pericles of Athens]

So we'll be incredibly wealthy and dolled up tribals sitting directly on a series of important trade routes? What, if I might ask, would inspire our need to conquer anything or leave our ancesteral lands in the first place if they are indeed so perfect? I personally don't like this vibe of wealthy aristocrats that just happen to be nomads, a nomadic culture is simple by nessecity and shaped by the land they call home - ours does not seem to be such.

[Ace_General]

So we'll be incredibly wealthy and dolled up tribals sitting directly on a series of important trade routes? What, if I might ask, would inspire our need to conquer anything or leave our ancesteral lands in the first place if they are indeed so perfect? I personally don't like this vibe of wealthy aristocrats that just happen to be nomads, a nomadic culture is simple by nessecity and shaped by the land they call home - ours does not seem to be such.

Heres an idea to move our tribe out of our basin:

Two generations ago there was rich and relativly well watered grassland, but for whatever reason (little ice age etc) the grasslands have been getting colder and drier. And there used to be trade routes through the area where our tribe would either raid or offer protection to merchants, but within a generation, a pandemic like the black death swept through and decimated the cities and severly curtailed long distance trade(though the low density, mobile, and relatively healthy nomads would suffer little from it)

And with armor, leather works, for the majority of people, but what was used by turkic nomads was essentially a vest of not just scale but Lamallar armor where the scales were tied in 4 ways and overlapped.

Another style of armor is the coat of plates, where you have a leather vest or jacket and you sew in leather plates like a modern flak jacket. I have made and worn those in re-enactment full contact fighting, and honestly, short of custom made full plate, thats what I would wear if I had to go into battle back then. Its relatively light, flexible, and breathable but offers good protection to the vitals

The one thing you have to realize is that metal armor is HOT. It doesnt breathe, espeically when you wear the inch to two inches of padding underneath the metal armor which you have to wear unless you want horrific chafing and being cut and bruised by your amor and blunt force and mildly penetrating hit.

Another way to go for armor is boiled leather over 10-15 layers of cloth woven at 45 degree angles like a modern bullet proof vest(and actually it works about the same as a modern soft kevlar vest and the first "bulletproof vests" were actually silk layered like this

[Dirty Chai]

Fair point Pericles.

I only suggested the scale armor being available as actual inventory items that you can purchase, with enough money, from the shop or loot from battles/cities.
Thus, the only people that could possibly have it would be the very elite among us.

It is the same with jewelry, however I do agree with McScottish and Pericles about jewelry.

So, no, we probably shouldn't be sitting on a Silk Road.

Pericles - what did you suggest for common clothing?

I'd personally continue going with light, billowy clothes that cover the arms and legs and neck to protect from the harmful sun.

[McScottish]

Oh right...I say what Pericles said in a different manner and get cac'd on?

It's the vibe I was getting people, in my head! Not my view of Indo-Iranians.

Anyway, I agree with both Pericles and Dark Storm - Environment should come first.

[Dirty Chai]

I think we've pretty much all agreed on the same terrain however.
The only other suggestions separate from Sahel have been.. basically the same thing with different wording.
"Arid Grassland".

[McScottish]

I'll just sit here and watch then, for now.

Oh, and Ace, I suggested boiled leather already. Again, read peoples posts all the way through.