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Thread: Kartli Faction in Attila TW

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Kartli Faction in Attila TW

    I doubt CA will be interested, alas. I will link this over to the Fall of the Eagles mod and hopefully they will be able tp incorporate the information. I look forward to your next update as usual!

  2. #22

    Default Re: Kartli Faction in Attila TW

    Quote Originally Posted by SeniorBatavianHorse View Post
    I doubt CA will be interested, alas. I will link this over to the Fall of the Eagles mod and hopefully they will be able tp incorporate the information. I look forward to your next update as usual!
    Thank you once more! If the Eagles mod members wish I could help them in research with the Caucasian faction. I do not know about CA, but they can use everything for free if they need and wish to use something,
    I will help them with pleasure free of charge of course. I do not even want the credit for this.




    PS. next I will post about the second half of the 5th century. What was Kingdom of Kartli like during the great king Vakhtang I (449-502), this is the age of Attila the Hun and his successors.
    Last edited by JERUSALEM; February 25, 2015 at 06:40 AM.
    Through your intercession I hope to see the light of Thy son and the light of everlasting ages !

  3. #23

    Default Re: Kartli Faction in Attila TW

    Yet In Attila as well as in ROME 2 Georgian Kingdoms of kartli as well as Colchis had totally wrong Flags !


    IT IS VERY DISRESPECTING and Offensive to Georgian Total war Fans that our history and traditions are Ignored ! Laz People flag ! ( Attila total war)


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDp5Q6KwTBE

  4. #24

    Default Re: Kartli Faction in Attila TW

    THIS IS OUR SYMBOL OF OUR NATION, on our Sport teams on our money on our Churches and Houses, weapons and in military you can see this symbol... I hope somebody will correct our flag in ROME 2 and Attila total war ! thanks

  5. #25

    Default Re: Kartli Faction in Attila TW

    Quote Originally Posted by JERUSALEM View Post
    As We already know Kartli (Caucasian Iberia, or Eastern Iberia) was confirmed as a separate faction in Attila TW. We do not know whether it will be playable or not, but that
    does not matter at all. In this tread I will try to post as necessary information about the Kingdom of Kartli (Iberia) and hope the viewers will get more acquaintance about that
    faction which is part of ATTILA TW.

    HISTORY AND THE ORIGIN OF KINGDOM OF KARTLI

    Kartli is the central part of Georgia. The term "Georgia" derives from the Greek name Γεωργιος (Georgios) which was derived from the Greek word γεωργος (georgos) meaning "farmer, earthworker". Before the term Georgia, the term Kartli was used to describe the entire Eastern part of Georgia. The term "KARTLI" was the local rendering of the Georgian Kingdom and the Graeco-Romans called IBERIA, this we know from the classical sources.

    Caucasian Iberians a Greco-Roman designation for the population of Caucasian Iberia, presumably a Kartvelian (Georgian) speaking people in east and southeast of the Transcaucasus region in prehistoric and early historic times.

    Ancient Iberians are identified as modern eastern Georgians who have originated from the early Georgian state of Caucasian Iberia.[2][3] In southwest, Iberians extended into Anatolia, inhabiting interior lands beside Colchians, who lived along the littoral area.

    The area was inhabited in earliest times by several relative tribes of Tibareni, Mushki, Saspers, Gugars, Diaokhi, etc., collectively called Iberians (the Eastern Iberians) by ancient Greek (Herodotus, Strabo, etc.) and Roman authors. Iberians called their country Kartli after a mythic chief, Kartlos. One of the Iberian tribes of Mtskheta (the future capital of the Iberian kingdom) dominated the early Kingdom. The Mtskheta tribe was later ruled by a prince locally known as mamasakhlisi (“the father of the household” in Georgian).

    The medieval Georgian source Moktsevai Kartlisai (“Conversion of Kartli”) also speaks about Azo and his people, who came from Arian-Kartli – the initial home of the proto-Iberians, which had been under Achaemenid rule until the fall of the Persian Empire – to settle on the site where Mtskheta was to be founded. Another Georgian chronicle Kartlis Tskhovreba (“History of Kartli”) claims Azo to be an officer of Alexander’s, who massacred a local ruling family and conquered the area, until being defeated at the end of the 4th century BC by Prince Pharnavaz, who was at that time a local chief.
    The story of Alexander’s invasion of Kartli, although entirely fictional, nevertheless reflects the establishment of Georgian monarchy in the Hellenistic period and the desire of later Georgian literati to connect this event to the celebrated conqueror.

    Pharnavaz I and his descendants

    Pharnavaz, victorious in a power struggle, became the first king of Iberia (ca. 302-ca. 237 BC). Driving back an invasion, he subjugated the neighboring areas, including a significant part of the western Georgian state of Colchis (locally known as Egrisi), and seems to have secured recognition of the newly founded state by the Seleucids of Syria. Then Pharnavaz focused on social projects, including the citadel of the capitol, the Armaztsikhe, and the idol of the god Armazi. He also reformed the Georgian written language, and created a new system of administration, subdividing the country into several counties called saeristavos. His successors managed to gain control over the mountainous passes of the Caucasus with the Daryal (also known as the Iberian Gates) being the most important of them.

    Roman Georgia

    Rome's conquests reached the Caucasus area at the end of the 2nd century BC, when the Roman Republic started to expand in Anatolia and the Black Sea.
    In the area of what is now western Georgia there was the Kingdom of Colchis that in those years has fallen under control of the Kingdom of Pontus (an enemy of Rome), while further east there was the "Kingdom of Iberia". As a result of the brilliant Roman campaigns of Pompey and Lucullus in 65 BC, the Kingdom of Pontus was completely destroyed by the Romans and all its territory, including Colchis, was incorporated into the Roman Empire as its province. Iberia, on the other hand was invaded and became a vassal state of the empire.
    From this point on Colchis became the Roman province of Lazicum, with Emperor Nero later incorporating it into the Province of Pontus in 63 AD, and successively in Cappadocia by Domitian in 81 AD. At the same time, Iberia continued to be a vassal state because it enjoyed significant independence and with the lowlands frequently raided by fierce mountain tribes, paying a nominal homage to Rome in exchange of protection was viewed as a worthwhile investment.

    This close association with Armenia and Pontus brought upon the country an invasion (65 BC) by the Roman general Pompey, who was then at war with Mithradates VI of Pontus, and Armenia; but Rome did not establish her power permanently over Iberia. Nineteen years later, the Romans again marched (36 BC) on Iberia forcing King Pharnavaz II to join their campaign against Albania.

    While another Georgian kingdom of Colchis was administered as a Roman province, Iberia freely accepted the Roman Imperial protection. A stone inscription discovered at Mtskheta speaks of the first-century ruler Mihdrat I (AD 75-120) as "the friend of the Caesars" and the king "of the Roman-loving Iberians." Emperor Vespasian fortified the ancient Mtskheta site of Arzami for the Iberian kings in 75 AD.
    The next two centuries saw a continuation of Roman influence over the area, but by the reign of King Pharsman II (120 – 150) Iberia had regained some of its former power. Relations between the Roman Emperor Hadrian and Pharsman II were strained, though Hadrian is said to have sought to appease Pharsman. However, it was only under Hadrian's successor Antoninus Pius that relations improved to the extent that Pharsman is said to have even visited Rome, where Dio Cassius reports that a statue was erected in his honor and that rights to sacrifice were given. The period brought a major change to the political status of Iberia with Rome recognizing them as an ally, rather than their former status as a subject state, a political situation which remained the same, even during the Empire's hostilities with the Parthians.

    (Iberia/Kartli as the major power in the EAST after the Roman Empire and Parthia)


    Decisive for the future history of Iberia was the foundation of the Sasanian (or Sassanid) Empire in 226. By replacing the weak Parthian realm with a strong, centralized state, it changed the political orientation of Iberia away from Rome. Iberia became a tributary of the Sasanian state during the reign of Shapur I (241-272). Relations between the two countries seem to have been friendly at first, as Iberia cooperated in Persian campaigns against Rome, and the Iberian king Amazasp III (230-265) was listed as a high dignitary of the Sasanian realm, not a vassal who had been subdued by force of arms[citation needed]. But the aggressive tendencies of the Sasanians were evident in their propagation of Zoroastrianism, which was probably established in Iberia between the 260s and 290s.

    However, in the Peace of Nisibis (298) while the Roman empire obtained control of Caucasian Iberia again as a vassal state and acknowledged the reign over all the Caucasian area, it recognized Mirian III, as king of Iberia.

    CONVERSION OF KARTLI

    Mirian III (Georgian: მირიან III) was a king of Iberia (or Kartli, modern Georgia), contemporaneous to the Roman emperor Constantine I (r. 306–337).
    According to the early medieval Georgian annals and hagiography, Mirian was the first Christian king of Iberia, converted through the ministry of Nino, a Cappadocian female missionary. He is credited with establishment of Christianity as his kingdom's state religion and is regarded by the Georgian Orthodox Church as saint.
    Traditional chronology after Prince Vakhushti assigns to Mirian's reign — taken to have lasted for 77 years — the dates 268–345, which Professor Cyril Toumanoff corrects to 284–361. He is also known to the contemporary Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus and the medieval Armenian chronicles.
    The king's name, Mirian, is a Georgian adaptation of the Iranian "Mihran". The medieval Georgian records give other versions of his name, both in its original Iranian as well as closely related Georgian forms (Mirean, Mirvan). Writing in Latin, the Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus (XXI.6.8) renders the name of his contemporary Iberian king as Meribanes. The Armenian chronicles, possibly compiled in the 8th century and traditionally ascribed to Moses of Chorene, gives Mihran and speaks about his conversion to Christianity. The regnal numbers as in Mirian III are modern and were not used by the medieval Georgian authors. Since two kings preceded first Christian ruler of Iberia with that name, Mirian has been assigned the ordinal “III” in Georgian historiography.
    According to the medieval Georgian chronicle Life of the Kings, Mirian was a Persian prince married to an Iberian princess Abeshura, daughter of the last Georgian Arsacid king Aspagur. Upon the death of Aspagur, Mirian was installed on the throne of Iberia by his father whom the medieval Georgian chronicles refer to as "K'asre" (Khosrau), Great King of Iran. This being during the rule of the Sassanid dynasty over Iran, the medieval author of the chronicles assumed (or invented) Mirian's descent from the Sassanids. However, the name Khosrau was not used by the Sassanids till some time later; hence, either the Georgian annals are mistaken in the name of Mirian’s father, or "Khosrau" was taken as a general term meaning "king". Toumanoff inferred that Mirian might have been a scion of the Mihranid family, one of the "seven Parthian clans". Professor Giorgi Melikishvili argues that Toumanoff's assumption is dubious and considers Mirian a representative of the local Iberian élite clan to whom the medieval tradition ascribed an exotic foreign royal ancestry to infuse him with more prestige. Another medieval Georgian account, Conversion of Kartli, is at odds with the tradition of Life of the Kings and identifies Mirian as the son of Lev, who is unattested elsewhere.
    The Life of the Kings recount Mirian's reign in much details. While its information about Mirian’s participation — as an Iranian client king — in the Sasanid war against the Roman Empire, and territorial ambitions in Armenia can be true, the claims of Mirian’s being a pretender to the throne of Iran, his being in control of Colchis and Albania, and expansion of his activity as far as Syria is obviously fictional. In the 298 Peace of Nisibis with Iran, Rome was acknowledged their suzerainty over Armenia and Iberia, but Mirian III retained the crown. He quickly adapted to this change in political situation, and established close ties with Rome.This association was cemented by Mirian's conversion to Christianity[6] — according to tradition — through the ministry of Nino, a Cappadocian nun. Nevertheless, as Ammianus Marcellinus recounts, Constantine's successor, Constantius, had to sent in 360 embassies with costly presents to Arsaces of Armenia and Meribanes of Iberia to secure their allegiance during the confrontation with Iran.
    Mirian's conversion to Christianity might have occurred in 334, followed by the declaration of Christianity as Iberia's state religion in 337. He was, thus, among the first monarchs of the ancient world to have adopted this new religion. A legend has it that when Mirian, staunchly pagan, was hunting in the woods near his capital Mtskheta, the darkness fell upon the land and the king was totally blinded. The light did not resume until Mirian prayed to "Nino's God" for aid. Upon his arrival he requested the audience with Nino and converted to Christianity soon after. According to tradition, Mirian's second wife, Nana, preceded her husband in conversion.
    His conversion fostered the growth of the central royal government, which confiscated the pagan temple properties and gave them to the nobles and the church; the medieval Georgian sources give evidence of how actively the monarchy and the nobility propagated Christianity and of the resistance they encountered from the mountain folk.[9] The Roman historian Rufinus as well as the Georgian annals report that, after their conversion, the Iberians requested clergy from the emperor Constantine, who responded vigorously and sent priests and holy relics to Iberia. The Georgian tradition than relates a story of the construction of a cathedral in Mtskheta at Mirian's behest and the king's pilgrimage to Jerusalem shortly before his death.[8] According to tradition, Mirian and his wife Nana were interred at the Samtavro convent in Mtskheta, where their tombs are still shown.
    The Georgian sources speak of Mirian’s two marriages. His first wife was Abeshura, daughter of the last Arsacid Iberian king who also traced his ancestry to the ancient Pharnabazid dynasty of Iberia. She died without issue when Mirian was 15 years old, in 292 according to Toumanoff. With her death, "the kingship and queenship of the Pharnabazid kings came to an end in Iberia", — the chronicler continues. Mirian subsequently remarried his second queen, Nana "from Pontus, daughter of Oligotos", who bore him two sons — Rev and Varaz-Bakur — and a daughter who married Peroz, the first Mihranid dynast of Gogarene.

    KARTLI IN 395

    However, after the emperor Julian was slain during his failed campaign in Persia in 363, Rome ceded control of Iberia to Persia, and King Varaz-Bakur I (Aspakour) (368-380s) became a Persian vassal, an outcome confirmed by the Peace of Acilisene in 387. However, a later ruler of Kartli, Pharsman IV (c. 395-400), preserved his country's autonomy and ceased to pay tribute to Persia. Accourding to the Vita of Petrus Iberi (6th c.), Parsman (Parsmanes in Latin) who lived in Roman Empire and was magistrus militum at the imperial court of Arcadius (395-408) was blamed in love relationship with Empress Aelia Eudokia. Parsman was forced to run from the Constantinople in 395 and found the shelter among the Huns. In the same year he had captured the royal throne of Kartli with the aid of Huns and expelled the Persian controlled members of Pharnavasid dynasty from capital Mtskheta. According to the Vita of Petrus Iberi he let the Huns to invade the Roman Empire and caused the great damage to all its subjects.
    According to classical and other Syriac sources this invasion took place in 395 and lasted up to the end of 398.
    "According to the Live of Georgian Kings following information is preserved about the Parsman:
    Varaz-Bakar’s son and Peroz’s grandson, Parsman by name, became King, because he wasthe elder among his brothers. Bishop Elias died and Simon took his place. Parsman believed in God
    and was a brave man. He carried on negotiations with the King of the Greeks and asked him for his aid. The Caesar complied with his request. Then he broke off with the Persians, refused to pay
    them tribute, increased the number of crosses, renewed churches all over Kartli and built a church in Bolnisi. But his reign was short".

    (map of Kartli shown in purple as the only independent power in 400 year in Caucasus as the other powers are controlled by EASTERN Romans and SASSANID Persians. Map from Euroatlas)


    After of death of King Parsman, his brother, Mihrdat came into power, and he fought the Greeks (ERE) and Sassanids simultaneously:

    "His brother Mirdat’ became King. He was Trdat’’s grandson, son of Varaz-Bakar, Bakarid on his father’s side and Revid – on his mother’s, descendant of both of Mirian’s sons. Mirdat’’ was a brave
    man and a fearless soldier, but an unbeliever and impious, carefree and arrogant. Relying on his military valor, he did not serve God, did not build churches and added nothing to those already built.
    Due to his lack of concern, he became an enemy of the Greeks and the Persians. He demanded the lands of Kartli – K’larjeti from the Greeks – and refused to pay tribute to the Persians. Then the King
    of the Persians sent against Mirdat’ his commander Usharab42 by name, with an army. Mirdat’, again, due to his nonchalance, ignored the numerical superiority of the Persians, met them with a small
    army at Gardabani and joined battle. The Persians put the Georgians to flight and captured Mirdat’. The Persians conquered Kartli and desecrated the churches. And the King’s relatives remained in
    the ravine of K’akheti, and Bishop Simon with them. And they took Mirdat’ to Baghdad, where he died."

    After the capture and death of Mihrdat (father of Peter the Iberian) in AD 421, his relative Archiles (421-435) came into power and he continue the fight against the Sassanid Persians. Life of Georgian kings relate:
    "And the Persians invaded Kartli and desecrated the churches, but the Georgians hid their crosses. And in all the churches of Kartli, the Persian fire worshipers lighted fire. The relatives of the
    kings of Kartli remained in the valleys of K’akheti.3 Three years later the King of Persia was obliged to attend to other things, for his enemies had risen in the East.4 Then the aznauris of Kartli5 brought
    the son of Trdat’, a nephew of the captured King Mirdat’, who was called Archil6 and set him up as king in Mtskheta. Archil had taken a wife from Greece called Maria, from the family of King Iovian. He declared the Persians his enemies. He retrieved the crosses and adorned the churches; he destroyed and drove away the fire worshipers beyond the limits of Kartli, then summoned some forces from Greece and, led by the cross, began to fight the Persians. In those times, the Persian King’s7 eristavi ruled Kartli; this was before the reign of Archil. Rani and Movak’an8 were also under his power. He (the eristavi) gathered an army in Rani, Movak’an and Adarbadagan,9 and set out against Archil. Archil, putting his hopes and his trust in God, met him at the borders of Kartli and Rani;10 he arranged his troops on the banks of the Berduji River and with the power of the Holy Cross defeated and captured the enemy, captured Rani, and returned victorious to his country. He sent heralds all over Kartli to announce to all: “We overpowered the enemy not by our power, not by our vigor and wisdom, not by the numbers of our army, but by the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, the son of God, who gave us his Holy Cross as a weapon. Let every Georgian glorify the consubstantial Trinity, and God Primordial, the creator of all existing things. Give Him your thanks, and let your hearts remain firm in your belief in the Holy Trinity.” And the Kartlians gave thanks to the Lord and repaired the churches. Archil built the church of Saint Stephan11 in Mtskheta above the Gates of Aragvi where he also erected impregnable battle towers. Archil begat a son, who was named Mirdat’.12 Mirdat’ grew up and came of age. He was a believer, and a godly youth, like his father. He was valiant and fearless. He extended the war with the Persians, invaded and ravaged Rani and Movak’an, for the Persian King had no time to deal with him, because he was fighting the Inds, Sinds and Abashs, and could not put up a large army to oppose Mirdat’. The Kartlians could cope with the troops of Rani, Movak’an and Adarbadagan. Mirdat’ leading his father’s army, ravaged Rani and Movak’an several times. The eristavi of Rani at that time was Barzabod. Unable to offer resistance to the Kartlians, he reinforced the fortresses and towns. Wherever the Persian troops remained and fought with the Kartlians, who had ravaged them in Rani, they were always defeated.
    Barzabod, the eristavi of Rani,13 had a daughter, a very beautiful girl by the name of Sagdukht’. The rumors of her beauty kindled the flame of passion in Archil’s son, Mirdat’. He said to his father:
    “I ask your majesty to marry me with Barzabod’s daughter, Sagdukht’,14 and to make peace between us, for though we have overpowered him with the help of Christ, we cannot seize the fortresses and
    towns of Rani. If the Persian King finds time, he will take vengeance; he will ravage our churches and do many other terrible things in our country. Let the enmity stop between us, and the King of
    Persia will meet our demands. In this way we will secure the borders of our country; the faith of Christ will grow stronger in Kartli, and no Georgian will doubt and abuse the Persians when their
    arbitrariness ends. Mirdat’ said all this because of his love for this woman. And Archil fulfilled his wish. He sent an envoy to Barzabod with the request to marry his daughter to his son. Barzabod rejoiced, and felt great happiness, for his country15 was ruined and he personally was in straitened circumstances; he asked for an oath and the promise of peace. They took the oath. Barzabod married off his
    daughter and gave her a great dowry. They brought her to Mtskheta and celebrated their wedding there; and for many days they enjoyed themselves and celebrated. The King presented his son with
    Samshvilde16 and all its lands, and Mirdat’ and Sagdukht’ settled there. Queen Sagdukht’ showed a desire to learn the Christian faith. Her spouse gathered scholars,
    versed in the faith, and they began to translate the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ for her. And they showed her that the true God is Christ, who sacrificed himself to save us. When Sagdukht’ became
    aware of the true faith, she gave up worshiping fire, converted and was baptized. She also built Zion of Samshvilde. At this time in Archil’s reign, three bishops passed away: Iona, Grigol and Basil. After Basil died, Archil appointed a bishop, who was called Mobidan.18 He was a Persian by birth and outwardly observed Orthodoxy. But he was a faithless man, a violator of mores. King Archil and his son did not
    discern the faithlessness of Mobidan at once, but continued to take him for a believer. And Mobidan did not preach his faith openly, being afraid of the King and the people, but wrote secret outrageous
    books, which after his demise were burned like all his (other) writings by the true bishop Michael, who was later discharged due to his impertinence toward King Vakht’ang. King Archil ended his days in dedication to the Holy Trinity; he erected churches and increased the number of priests, deacons and church attendants all over Kartli, and then he died. King Archil ended his days in dedication to the Holy Trinity; he erected churches and increased the number of priests, deacons and church attendants all over Kartli, and then he died." (These are from the latest published book - Kartlis Tskhovreba: A History of Georgia. Chief Ed. Acad. Roin Metreveli and Prof.Stephan Jones. Artanuji publishers. Tbilisi, 2014.)

    the reign of Archiles (421-435) shows that Kartli was still in fierce struggle against the Sassanids and maintained its independence long after the Parsmans arrival to power with the help of Huns Georgians
    struggled against Persian and Roman simultaneously, which is very important. Later according the LGK (Live of Georgian Kings), during the youth of King Vakhtang I Gorgasali the queen Sagdukht was forced to impose the Persian control over Kingdom of Kartli, but in late year of Vakhtang I Gorgasali (449-502) in 482 the fierce struggle started against the Persian. Vakhtang was aided by the Armenian under Vahan Mamikonian and the bunch of Huns in North Caucasus, and he finally defeated the Sassianid after the death of Peroz I in the battle against Hephtalites (484). Vakhtang died in 502, in the new war against the Sassanids.

    (Map of Kingdom of Kartli in 500 from euroatlas.com.Kartli is still single independent realm in Caucasus. Others are conquered or under the dependance of Eastern Roman Empire and Sassanid Persia. Shown in brown at the South-East of the map).




    GEOPOLITICAL IMPORTANCE OF KARTLI IN 4th to 5th CENTURIES

    1. Dariali Pass (Caspiae Portae).
    From the Dariali Pass the rulers of Kartli were able to let the hordes of Northern Caucasus and Eurasian steps to go and invade the Sassanid and Eastern Roman Empire, which they did many times.

    See the links of wiki

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gates_of_Alexander

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darial_Gorge

    2. Mountainous country.
    The Kartli was mountainous kingdom as almost 70% of its territory was the mountains and hills and it was very well defended naturally from the enemies.

    3. Strategic location.
    Kartli was on the edge of Europe and Asia, hence it was very important to control its lands in order to capture the important roads leading to the East to West and vise-versa. Kartli (Iberia) as a part of modern Georgia at the crossroads of Europe and Asia, is a combination of uniqueness and diversity. Hence it was always in check.

    4. Christianity mixed with Eastern culture.
    This particular moment make the Kingdom of Kartli as mach favored for the Romans as for the Persians, they both aimed to control it for that suppose as well. The Northern tribes had an eye for the land of Kartli which was sedentary live and had quite a lot of production from the crop rotation.

    5. Farming and Agriculture
    Even the name Georgia is produced from the Greek word "georgioi" that means the earthworker. From the Greek name Γεωργιος (Georgios) which was derived from the Greek word γεωργος (georgos) meaning "farmer, earthworker". hence the Kartli kingdom was settled with the landlovin people and the land-makers as well as farmers.


    CAVALRY OF KARTLI/IBERIA

    Except for that the Kartli was very famous with its cavalry. They played the major role in Kingdom of Kartli and they also used Sarmatian and Hunnish cavalry as mercenaries during the many years of their struggle against Rome and Persia.
    During the Parsman II Braves (c. 120-150) visit in Rome in 141, during the rule of Roman Emperor Antoninus Pius (137-161), the emperor himself ordered to erect the equestrian statue of King Parsman II the Brave in the center of Rome. This was the only statue of the barbarian king erected in city of Rome in 2nd century AD and the Parsanm was on the horseback which point the leading role of Cavalry in he army of Georgians (Iberians) during the AD 2nd century. Live of King Vakhtang I Gorgasali also adds dozens of fact about the might of Georgian cavalry during the 5th century.

    (extract from prof. David Braund. Georgia in Antiquity. A History of Colchis and Transcaucasian Iberia, 550 b.c.-a.d. 562. Pp. xviii+360, 8 Maps, 21 plates. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1994. Cased, £40.), pp. 232-3.





    See also useful links:

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...asian-Iberia-)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Iberia

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vakhtang_I_of_Iberia


    PS. I will post more later, especially about the military stuff of Kartli faction.

    Oh, very interesting story of Kartli. I actually been in Georgia in Tbilisi and liked the country very much, that is mountainous country full with the old fortresses, some of them are very very old, I have been in Mtskheta as well and that is amazing city, it became the capital of that country in the 3rd century B.C. This kingdom will be very interesting to play in Attila total war's campaign and if that was the only independent faction in Caucasus in 395 and in the 5th century fighting Roman and Sassanids, when this makes this factions a lot more interesting to play. I would love to play Kartli. I thought that Armenia was more important in the end of the 4th century and in the beginning of the 5th century in Caucasus region, but as i see it now Armenians were only the puppet state of Sassanids in 395 and they lost their country to Sassanids in 428. But Kartli which was much little country fought well against them all the way long in the 5th century and even after that. Hilarious really interested to read more about the Kartli. Thank very much.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Kartli Faction in Attila TW

    Quote Originally Posted by Temo199 View Post
    Yet In Attila as well as in ROME 2 Georgian Kingdoms of kartli as well as Colchis had totally wrong Flags !


    IT IS VERY DISRESPECTING and Offensive to Georgian Total war Fans that our history and traditions are Ignored ! Laz People flag ! ( Attila total war)


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDp5Q6KwTBE


    This is not an official symbol of Kingdom of Kartli in antiquity, this kind of symbols were used by many nations, including the Armenians and Georgian, as well by others. So, this could not be used as a symbol for the Kartli faction. After the adoption of Christianity the main symbol was the single cross, maybe something like Bolnuri cross depicted on Bolnisi Sioni church. But we do not know which was the pagan symbol of Kartli during the rule of Pharnavad dynasty, this is still unknown for us. There could be some, but no idea about them yet, sources are very scant.
    Last edited by JERUSALEM; May 11, 2015 at 05:52 AM.
    Through your intercession I hope to see the light of Thy son and the light of everlasting ages !

  7. #27

    Default Re: Kartli Faction in Attila TW

    Amazing work Jerusalem. we have uite an interesting history, I can't wait for modders to make Kartli playable/Historically accurate.

  8. #28
    Darios's Avatar Ex Oriente Lux
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    Default Re: Kartli Faction in Attila TW

    I totally sympathize with this thread, but let's be honest here - if CA cannot even take the time to create the Slavs, Arabs, Alans, Armenia, etc... there's no chance they'd ever create a real Kartli faction. According to CA, you are not from Western Europe then your history does not matter. They made Colchis into a generic Greek-Persian faction in Rome 2. That's as far as they're willing to go.
    Under the Patronage of PikeStance


  9. #29

    Default Re: Kartli Faction in Attila TW

    Quote Originally Posted by Darios View Post
    I totally sympathize with this thread, but let's be honest here - if CA cannot even take the time to create the Slavs, Arabs, Alans, Armenia, etc... there's no chance they'd ever create a real Kartli faction. According to CA, you are not from Western Europe then your history does not matter. They made Colchis into a generic Greek-Persian faction in Rome 2. That's as far as they're willing to go.
    Very true my friend. But it's simply business, would it give them more revenue if they focused more on Eastern European factions when 80% of their revenue comes from the western countries ? nop, They'd rather spend time on western factions because their fan-base will like it.. as for the east.. the placeholders will do.... heck i'd love to have India in the game as well, India/Central Asia seems to be the most underrepresented region in the games yet it was one of the most important regions throughout the history. especially when it comes to military might.

    And in the case of CA it will always be like that, If you've lived in the west you'll understand.

    The only people who can solve this are us Eastern Europeans.. we need to make game-design a legit profession, we have already seen that Eastern Europeans + poles make great games. Eg Munt&Blade(Taleworlds), Kingdome Come (Warhorse). Because imho we are less attached to the western thinking of "all for money" and Hollywood/Movie industry fiction.. And more down to earth/realistic people make more interesting and real games(I'm not saying westerners are stupid I'm just saying their businesses drive the economy and those businesses contrary to the opinion don't have peoples best interests in mind)... So I hope eastern Europeans will start stepping up to the challenge, making their statement in gaming industry and giving us the games we are waiting for.

    I certainly want to learn programming/design and I'll gladly join the ranks.

  10. #30
    Darios's Avatar Ex Oriente Lux
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    Default Re: Kartli Faction in Attila TW

    Quote Originally Posted by OldStyle View Post
    The only people who can solve this are us Eastern Europeans.. we need to make game-design a legit profession, we have already seen that Eastern Europeans + poles make great games. Eg Munt&Blade(Taleworlds), Kingdome Come (Warhorse). Because imho we are less attached to the western thinking of "all for money" and Hollywood/Movie industry fiction.. And more down to earth/realistic people make more interesting and real games(I'm not saying westerners are stupid I'm just saying their businesses drive the economy and those businesses contrary to the opinion don't have peoples best interests in mind)... So I hope eastern Europeans will start stepping up to the challenge, making their statement in gaming industry and giving us the games we are waiting for.
    Ukrainians created one of my favorite games of all time - Cossacks: European Wars

    They're currently working on a new one as well. ^_^
    Under the Patronage of PikeStance


  11. #31

    Default Re: Kartli Faction in Attila TW

    Quote Originally Posted by Darios View Post
    Ukrainians created one of my favorite games of all time - Cossacks: European Wars

    They're currently working on a new one as well. ^_^
    hehe I had no idea about that, Though I loved that game in the old days, It was a lot of unbalanced fun.



    sorry for the off topic.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Kartli Faction in Attila TW

    Now let me post about appearance of people of Kartli and other Caucasians (Armenia, Arran, Lazica, Abasgia)

    People of Kartli, or Kartlvelians (modern Georgians) lived in the Eastern part of Georgia, also in the North-East of modern Turkey. Descendants of Kartli are now Georgian who live in country of Georgia.
    We have ancient appearance of Kartli ruling elite from the reliefs, seals and other paintings (AD 2nd to 7th cc.), later from 10th century we also have frescoes.

    Now let me post images from the seals dated to 2nd and 3rd cc. Those are two seals with a depiction of Kartli nobles from AD. 2nd and 3rd centuries discovered in Mtskheta, capital city of Kingdom of Kartli.





    See the link for more detailed information about it.

    http://farig.org/images/stories/pdfs...adze-2011a.pdf


    Some more images from 2nd to 4th century Kartli nobles we can find here, in this book. For example this one - Pendant with a portrait of a man; discovered in the village Kldeeti rich burial #6; Zestaponi district, Imereti; Gold, Cornelian; Date - 2nd- 3rdcc. A.D.; Archaeologist G. Lomtatidze; Preserved in the National Museum of Georgia (Gela Gamkrelidze. Researches in Iberia-colchology. Ed. By David Braund prof. of University of Exeter, UK. Tbilisi, 2012, p. 281, pic. 39).



    whole book could be found here

    https://books.google.ge/books?id=X_a...ORGIA)&f=false


    Some of these and other Kartli noble from the materials found by Gela Gamkrelidze (see here: Gela Gamkrelidze. Researches in Iberia-colchology. Ed. By David Braund prof. of University of Exeter, UK. Tbilisi, 2012, p. 260, pl. VI)



    These are modern appearance of people of Kartli (Georgians), some famous or characteristic people of this nation through centuries:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgians

    https://www.google.ge/search?q=georg...8yCN4Q_AUIBigB

    These links about Armenians:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armeni...an_collage.png

    https://www.google.ge/search?q=armen...joB18Q_AUIBigB

    These link about Lazs (people of Lazica now live in Turkey and in Western Georgia)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laz_people

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mingrelians

    https://www.google.ge/search?q=Lazs&...lians+and+lazs

    These link about the population of Arran or ancient Caucasian Albanians, nowadays they are called as Udi.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udi_people

    https://www.google.ge/search?q=%D0%A...nfmP2DWTb0M%3A

    These links about the population of Abasgia, which are modern Abkhazians


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazians

    https://www.google.ge/search?q=Abkha...WuNQ6bphR-M%3A



    I guess I have provided sufficient information about the appearance of Caucasians not only nowadays, but also in the past. The Caucasians, they do not look like Iranians hence their appearance and faces are different from Iranian/Persian. Through their name are originated from Iran, they still used localized Persian names, for example Persian Mihrdat appearance in Kartli as Mirdat etc. But still Caucasian use some other names as well, for example local, Greek, Latin and Sarmatian.


    I hope this information will help to CA or to everyone to make proper historical Caucasia (Caucasus) in the future DLC's for the Total War Attila. My personal hope is to see the Caucasians in TW Attila as a separate DLC and i am pretty sure that many people will like it to play and to experience different and historically accurate culture for Attila's Age. Caucasia/Caucasus was really important region during the 4th and 5th centuries as these region lies between Nomadic (Huns, Alans etc.), Roman (ERE) and Persian (Sassanid) worlds. Recent archaeological findings revealed that earliest humans (hominids) in Europe appeared in Dmanisi (Kartli, modern Georgia region of Kvemo/Lower Kartli). Also majority of Americans from USA thinks that they are Caucasians, hence originated from Caucasia/Caucasus region as it was believed in 19th century and recent archaeological findings prove that the first people really appeared from Dmanisi (Kvemo/Lower Kartli region, Georgia, Caucasia) in Europe. Consequently, Caucasians issue is important not only from the historical perspective but also from archaeological and contemporary perspectives.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmanisi_skull_4


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_Europe


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_a..._United_States



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defini..._United_States



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_American
    Last edited by JERUSALEM; December 06, 2015 at 12:22 PM.
    Through your intercession I hope to see the light of Thy son and the light of everlasting ages !

  13. #33
    Darios's Avatar Ex Oriente Lux
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    Default Re: Kartli Faction in Attila TW

    Your knowledge is impressive (as I become accustomed to seeing from you) but I will tell you something that one of my university teachers once told me:

    When I have to read long papers, dissertations, books, etc. the first thing I do is go to the bibliography and examine the sources used.

    I assume that you're probably from Georgia or somewhere else in the Caucasus? If that's the case then you should be able to provide us with some interesting sources on Kartli written by Georgian, Armenian, and Russian writers that others who are not from the region might not have access to. Wikipedia is something that I read all the time when I'm bored; if you want to convince others that there should be a Caucasian Cultural Pack DLC then you should begin by finding some of the juicy and super interesting sources.

    (I'm all for such a cultural pack, due to the fact that I can't stand the fact that all of the factions currently there have copy/paste Persian rosters. The Caucasus is a super interesting region, one that I hope to visit in the next year or two.)
    Under the Patronage of PikeStance


  14. #34

    Default Re: Kartli Faction in Attila TW

    Quote Originally Posted by Darios View Post
    Your knowledge is impressive (as I become accustomed to seeing from you) but I will tell you something that one of my university teachers once told me:

    When I have to read long papers, dissertations, books, etc. the first thing I do is go to the bibliography and examine the sources used.
    I assume that you're probably from Georgia or somewhere else in the Caucasus? If that's the case then you should be able to provide us with some interesting sources on Kartli written by Georgian, Armenian, and Russian writers that others who are not from the region might not have access to. Wikipedia is something that I read all the time when I'm bored; if you want to convince others that there should be a Caucasian Cultural Pack DLC then you should begin by finding some of the juicy and super interesting sources.

    (I'm all for such a cultural pack, due to the fact that I can't stand the fact that all of the factions currently there have copy/paste Persian rosters. The Caucasus is a super interesting region, one that I hope to visit in the next year or two.)

    Thank you for your support. You can easily guess my origin from my nickname

    I agree with you the whole Caucasian roster is copy/paste of Sassanid Persian roster, I think that should be changed, and I hope it will be changed very soon through DLC. I really like how CA try to improve this game through DLCs, that is very useful, that is why I was happy when they have changed Alan roster, though I have never intended to play as Alans, I play only with the Eastern factions and sometimes with Romans as well. We almost do not have Caucasia in the game, we have only Sassanid Persia instead them. We got only unique Caucasian faction names and the one Armenian unit and two or three historical Armenian names in the game, that is all. Hence, I think that it is not fair for Caucasians to have this kind of poor research.

    Good sources about the Caucasus you can see here from this website.

    http://bumberazi.com/texts/


    http://bumberazi.com/

    I almost always provide the sources (at least special academic literature) for the information that I post here. In the latest post I have provided some wiki pages, but those facts (Archaeological excavation in Dmanisi, Ethnicity of White Americans etc.) are so well-known that I think they need no first hand sources to add, as far as wiki pages have those sources sited below. I can provide the Russian, the Georgian or the Armenian literature, but almost none will understand this here, in this forum, maybe except those few, who knows those languages, therefor I try to post only English-language books, or articles.
    Last edited by JERUSALEM; December 09, 2015 at 02:37 PM.
    Through your intercession I hope to see the light of Thy son and the light of everlasting ages !

  15. #35

    Default Re: Kartli Faction in Attila TW

    Now let me post more about academic literature concerning the Kartli. Darios requested that there is high demand about the academic literature rather then for the wikipedia links among the total war fans hence i will be glad to present the latest research from the brilliant researcher (Stephen H. Rapp Jr.) about the Georgia (Kartli) and Sassanid empire from 3rd to 7th centuries, which is based on late antique Georgian sources of 4th to 7th centuries. This is probably the best English language book about the History of Kartli in the Late Antiquity (3rd to 7th cc.). See the extracts from this book - Stephen H. Rapp Jr.(Sam Houston State University, USA), The Sasanian World through Georgian Eyes: Caucasia and the Iranian Commonwealth in Late Antique Georgian Literature, Ashgate Publishers, 2014.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=T8...page&q&f=false

    probably the best and the most interesting part is about the "Life of Vakhtang Gorgasali" - pp. 271-330. the most pages from this part of the book is free to read from the google.book.com

    here is the list of bibliography from the same book, see the extract from amazon.com

    http://www.amazon.com/Sasanian-World.../dp/1472425529
    Last edited by JERUSALEM; December 13, 2015 at 04:57 AM.
    Through your intercession I hope to see the light of Thy son and the light of everlasting ages !

  16. #36
    SeniorBatavianHorse's Avatar Tribunus Vacans
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    Default Re: Kartli Faction in Attila TW

    http://www.sasanika.org/wp-content/u...aginations.pdf

    The above is a good overview also - and thanks for posting JERUSALEM - your posts are always invaluable!

  17. #37

    Default Re: Kartli Faction in Attila TW

    Quote Originally Posted by SeniorBatavianHorse View Post
    http://www.sasanika.org/wp-content/u...aginations.pdf

    The above is a good overview also - and thanks for posting JERUSALEM - your posts are always invaluable!

    Thank you very much for sharing this good article, I have already saved it for myself and even read it and found very interesting phrase in it, see the page 20.

    Whereas the ruling Arsacids of Armenia Major were stripped of royal status by the Sasanians in 428, eastern Georgia’s Chosroids retained power until their suppression by the Sasanians around the year 580.

    Steven H. Rapp Jr., New Perspectives on “The Land of Heroes and Giants”: The Georgian Sources for Sasanian History, e-Sasanika 13 (2014), p. 20.


    I provide this information for those who think that Armenia was more important rather then Kingdom of Kartli for this period (5th to 6th cc.), Armenia minor was annexed by Byzantine Empire in 387; Armenia major in 428; Albania/Arran in 463, gained independence in 484, was annexed again in 510; Kartli Lost its independence according to to S.H. Rapp in apprx. 580; Lazica remained to be under Byzantine (ERE) influence since 562. Hence it is really important to know that there are a lot of factions/kingdoms who were more long-lasting than Kingdom of Armenia in Caucasia, and they also deserve to be in game like Armenia of course, at least Armenia was the biggest kingdom among the other Caucasians of that periods (in the end of the 4th and in the beginning of the 5th century before it was annexed by Sassanids).
    Last edited by JERUSALEM; December 13, 2015 at 01:26 PM.
    Through your intercession I hope to see the light of Thy son and the light of everlasting ages !

  18. #38

    Default Re: Kartli Faction in Attila TW

    Several posts that I have posted here in this thread were lost as a result of spam attacks on the twcenter forum in the beginning of this year. I have exposed quite many materials from mine collections in order to show how Kartli looked from contemporary evidences, But much of this information were lost and I did not save my posts, which I am going to do now. Now I will post them again, probably all these information will help someone to create proper historically accurate Kartli kingdom in total war series, at least I hope so.

    I post and save them for myself this time. First I will start from depictions of various kind

    1. Venaration of the cross with depiction of unknown king of Kartli holding the Iranian insignia wearing the Roman dress with fibula and having the hairs in Hunnic style dated by 5th to 6th cc.



    2. Capital of a stone cross Pillar from Dmanisi dated by 6th c.




    3. Stone pillar from Khandisi with the depiction of Christ and Holy Virgin (the 6th c.).



    4. Angel on the left and st. Cerycos and St. Julitta. From Khandisi (the 6th c).




    5. Christ and Virgin. Fragments of Stone pillar from Khandisi dated to 6th c.





    6. Depiction of St. George and Holy Sepulture on the right. Stone pillar from Khandisi dated to 6th c.




    7. Depiction of the St. Eusthatius with bow from Natlismtsemeli dated to the end of 6th c. and beginning of the 7th c.



    8. St. Eusthatius on the horse with bow in his hands from Natlismtsemeli.




    9. Deer. from Nathlismtsemeli date in the end of 6th c. and in the beginning of 7th c.




    10. Brdadzori. Depiction of Apostles and assumption of Virgins soul. Date by 6th c.





    11. St. George from Khandisi (6th c.)




    12. Brdadzori. Assumption of Virgins soul and Virgin with donors. dated to 6th c.




    13. Brdadzori. Noble Family from Kartli, possibly donors or ktitors dated to 6th c.




    14. Archangels or secular persons, king and his noble according to another assumption. Stone cross fragment from Davati. Dated to 6th c




    15. Archangels, or Nobles from Kartli. Davati stone cross fragment. dated to 6th c.

    Last edited by JERUSALEM; December 27, 2016 at 04:49 AM.
    Through your intercession I hope to see the light of Thy son and the light of everlasting ages !

  19. #39

    Default Re: Kartli Faction in Attila TW

    I sorry as some of those pictures are in upright position, but still they are visible.


    Let me continue with more picture of various type and I will post military and secular depictions only.

    16. Stone Cross Pillar from Gantiadi. dated to 6th c.



    17. Stone pillar from gantiadi, Damnisi munisipality. Dated to 6th c.




    17a. Stone pillar from Gantiadi (fragment), Damnisi munisipality. Depiction of unidentified rulers of Kartli. Dated to 6th c.




    18. Apostles from Kataula. Dated to 7th c.




    19. Noble Women from Kataula. Dated to 7th c.




    20. Gregory Hypatos and Unknown noble from Kartli. Dated to 7 th c.



    21. Usaneti Stone pillar. Dated to 7th or 8th cc




    22. Depiction of Daliel and lions from Usaneti. Dated from 7th to 8th cc.



    23. Kachaghani Cross. dated to 7th c.




    24. Fragments of Kachaghani cross.




    25. Pillar from Bolnisi 5th c.




    26. Head of the bull from Bolnisi Church (5th c.)

    https://s29.postimg.org/bfg7y978n/IMG_1182.jpg

    https://postimg.org/image/tv0ovnlcz/



    windows screen capture

    27. Head of another bull (with horns) from the same Bolnisi Church (5th c.).

    windows 7 screen shot

    It appears that bull was among holy animals in Kartli, as is it also depicted on the official golden coins minted in Georgia during 1st c. BC to 1st c. AD.

    see so-called Georgian imitations to Alexander’s type staters

    http://geonumismatics.tsu.ge/en/cata...types/?type=15

    this picture from Online English-Georgian Catalogue of Georgian Numismatics is very good example for this assumption.

    upload images
    Last edited by JERUSALEM; December 27, 2016 at 05:24 AM.
    Through your intercession I hope to see the light of Thy son and the light of everlasting ages !

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