Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 24

Thread: Late legionary composition?

  1. #1
    CK23's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    1,821

    Default Late legionary composition?

    I was wondering if anyone could provide a somewhat historical composition for legions in this time period? I'm trying to compose my legions and quite frankly, I'm totally lost.

    Thanks!
    Rabble rousing, Pleb Commander CK23

  2. #2

    Default Re: Late legionary composition?

    There are many different pictures. For example:

    1) late 3rd - early 4th AD
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    2) last row:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    3)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    4)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by Avetis; November 10, 2014 at 11:58 AM.

  3. #3
    CK23's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    1,821

    Default Re: Late legionary composition?

    Haha while those are great I meant what units should I use in-game to compose my "legions"?

    Awesome pictures though!
    Rabble rousing, Pleb Commander CK23

  4. #4

    Default Re: Late legionary composition?

    Ah, sorry

    I think you should learn about Notitia Dignitatum. It's about late Imperial army organization, very detailed

  5. #5
    Reno Melitensis's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Marsascala, Malta
    Posts
    2,029

    Default Re: Late legionary composition?

    I can help you here. We don't now exactly how the late Roman army was deployed, neither how its commanders operated, but we have some accounts like the battle of Argentorate in which we know what legions where deployed and guess how. Avetis told you to look at the Notitia Dignitatum that was approx composed in 422, 100 years after this mod date, so its not so good to your cause. When Constantine was declared emperor by his troops, there where still the old style Legions deployed on the frontiers, but of course dressed and equipped as above.

    I take a solid line of Hastati equipped with shields and in shield wall formation. Behind them Palatina to shower your enemy with pila, and to deploy them where the line show signs of collapsing, third line of missile troops like Lancerii, Fundatores and Sagittari. Always take at least three cavalry units plus your General.

    I found a good tactic to first join hand to hand infantry against infantry. Then hunt down enemy cavalry units with your own, especially the general cavalry unit. Once this threat is gone move you missile troops to surround the enemy forces and shower them with missiles. This will weaken them, a good target are the Palatina and Aquila Legions as they are the most lethal in hand to hand. Move your missile units away and repeatedly charge the enemy. Don't leave your cavalry engaged in hand to hand with infantry.

    It will take time as the battles in C:ROC are long but so far using this tactic I defeated larger armies with much more elite units than mine.

    Cheers

  6. #6
    legio_XX's Avatar Ordinarius
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    U.S.A
    Posts
    781

    Default Re: Late legionary composition?

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...50-House-Rules

    its for IBFD but its a pretty good guide line.
    "ANY person,country or race who use's religion as a pretext to kill or conquer deserves neither Religion nore Name"

  7. #7

    Default Re: Late legionary composition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reno Melitensis View Post
    Avetis told you to look at the Notitia Dignitatum that was approx composed in 422, 100 years after this mod date, so its not so good to your cause.
    Indeed.
    I read about 400AD, however this document is closest at time and can help to imagine the Roman Army progress/regress through the 4th century.

  8. #8
    CK23's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    1,821

    Default Re: Late legionary composition?

    Indeed, all very interesting and helpful posts.

    Essentially, the legions in this time period were still very much formed like Imperial legions? Alebit with a bit of a later age twang.
    Rabble rousing, Pleb Commander CK23

  9. #9
    Reno Melitensis's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Marsascala, Malta
    Posts
    2,029

    Default Re: Late legionary composition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Avetis View Post
    Indeed.
    I read about 400AD, however this document is closest at time and can help to imagine the Roman Army progress/regress through the 4th century.
    Some say the listed shields units for the east are at about 400 AD, in fact many units where recently raised by Emperor Theodosius named either Theodosiani and Arcadiani. Those for the west more later at 420 AD, with units being raised by the Magister Stilicho all have the title Honoriani.

    Cheers
    Last edited by Reno Melitensis; November 11, 2014 at 02:19 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Late legionary composition?

    Legions in this period are more like individual cohorts as opposed to a stack of them. The late Roman army is generally more flexible in regards to the composition of Legions.

  11. #11
    Magister Militum Flavius Aetius's Avatar δούξ θρᾳκήσιου
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Rock Hill, SC
    Posts
    16,318
    Tournaments Joined
    1
    Tournaments Won
    0

    Default Re: Late legionary composition?

    I've done a comprehensive study of the Notitia. It was written in 395 (that is well established), with the Western half receiving major updates in 402 (Illyrian Field Army created), 405 (Comes Britanniarum transferred to Gaul), and minor updates after that (if it was updated at all). The last update was in 419.

    Legions in this period are more like individual cohorts as opposed to a stack of them. The late Roman army is generally more flexible in regards to the composition of Legions.
    If you're using 80 man units you'd be looking at about 4 units of armored infantry, 4 units of unarmored infantry, and 4 units of skirmishers (Archers, Slingers, Light Javelinmen, etc). And a Praefectus, of course.

  12. #12
    Mayor's Avatar Tiro
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Argentina
    Posts
    283

    Default Re: Late legionary composition?

    Do you Guys know or tell my where to find and read an explanation on the reasons for late Roman infantry to stop using the square type scutum and replace it by the oval shield? Thanks and have a Happy New Year!

  13. #13

    Default Re: Late legionary composition?

    Yes
    In the late Iperium, the Roman soldiers became lazy.
    They complained about how theyre equipment was to heavy to wear.
    Becouse the round shield, that the Auxiliary uses, was mutch more lighter and easyer to use.
    But becouse the late Imperial roman soldier was using lighter armor, then the Lorica Hamata and the Lorica Segmentata, its prob. that they also have complained that the scutum was to heavy.

  14. #14
    Reno Melitensis's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Marsascala, Malta
    Posts
    2,029

    Default Re: Late legionary composition?

    That is not true. The Scutum remained in use through the 3rd century AD and maybe a little later, as finds from Dura Europos show. There is no historical source why the scutum was abandoned in favor of an oval shield. One reason may be the use of different tactical adoptions form the reign of Traianus to Marcus Aurelius. Both shields where heavy, but in a closed shield wall formation, the oval scutum offered better protection than the square scutum. The Romans where not more aggressive, the age of conquest was over, now Rome was on the defensive.

    The Lorica Segmentata offered better protection to the infantry, but was more expensive to make and needed more time in maintenance and repair, while the lorica hamata and squamata where cheaper to produce. The same goes for Helmet designs. Helmets changed over not because the Imperial Gallic was heavier than the Spangenhelm or Intercisa type, or because soldiers complained, but because it was cheaper to produce. The Empire needed to equip its soldiers as fast as it could.

    Chers

  15. #15
    Mayor's Avatar Tiro
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Argentina
    Posts
    283

    Default Re: Late legionary composition?

    Thanks for the information. So I was wrong, because I thought square scutum was more effective in close formation. Regards.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Late legionary composition?

    Here's an illustration from the battle of Argentoratum (357 AD) showing army composition, dispositions and movements. Note: The final panel is not included; Germans rout w/o no other tactical maneuver by Rome.

    Last edited by TheRazaman; January 02, 2015 at 08:37 AM.

  17. #17
    legio_XX's Avatar Ordinarius
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    U.S.A
    Posts
    781

    Default Re: Late legionary composition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reno Melitensis View Post
    That is not true. The Scutum remained in use through the 3rd century AD and maybe a little later, as finds from Dura Europos show. There is no historical source why the scutum was abandoned in favor of an oval shield. One reason may be the use of different tactical adoptions form the reign of Traianus to Marcus Aurelius. Both shields where heavy, but in a closed shield wall formation, the oval scutum offered better protection than the square scutum. The Romans where not more aggressive, the age of conquest was over, now Rome was on the defensive.

    The Lorica Segmentata offered better protection to the infantry, but was more expensive to make and needed more time in maintenance and repair, while the lorica hamata and squamata where cheaper to produce. The same goes for Helmet designs. Helmets changed over not because the Imperial Gallic was heavier than the Spangenhelm or Intercisa type, or because soldiers complained, but because it was cheaper to produce. The Empire needed to equip its soldiers as fast as it could.

    Chers
    ^THIS! thank you Reno, equipment did not change on the mere fact Romans became lazy I can just picture A made for TV fat roman looking at the Scutum being like "humph! this hunk of wood is too heavy and clunky. fetch me a Oval one!"
    "ANY person,country or race who use's religion as a pretext to kill or conquer deserves neither Religion nore Name"

  18. #18
    DeathtoEgo's Avatar Civis
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Florida, right neer da beach
    Posts
    190

    Default Re: Late legionary composition?

    I could be wrong and I'm too lazy to see if anyone before me mentioned this, but I remember reading that one of the reasons they changed to the flat oval shield was because the throwing axes used by some of the germanic tribes would riccochet off of the sides of the curved scutum into the formation causing casualties and the flat shields helped to cut down on the stray axes. Make sense, kinda.

  19. #19
    Reno Melitensis's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Marsascala, Malta
    Posts
    2,029

    Default Re: Late legionary composition?

    Every change in equipment the Romans made, from the Italian Wars of 330 BC up to the late Empire 380 AD, where done as a response to a threat. The Romans very often copied equipment from their enemies and neighbors. They where not shy to recognize the usefulness of the equipment used by others. So every think is possible. The change over from square scutum to oval scutum happened at the same time new Germanic Confederates appear like the Salian Franks, Ripurian Franks, Allemanni and Macromanni, and the recruitment of these Germans into the Army.

    Cheers

  20. #20
    Mayor's Avatar Tiro
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Argentina
    Posts
    283

    Default Re: Late legionary composition?

    Interesting theory, very plausible. Regards.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •