What is the most underrated civilization in history?

[Marcus Aemilius Lepidus]

In my opinion the Phoenicians and their Canaanite ancestors are a good candidate. They were at some point the real cradle of civilization between three large empires. Many things we think other people invented actually was Phoenician and the Greek highculture would have looked a lot diffrent without them. Phoenician families in Athen had a status as Metöks that gave them much more freedom and influence than many citizens and when we look at the Persian Navy than it was actually a Phoenician one. People tend to look in to the Carthaginians and they are awesome as well but the motherland was so much more influential because it was in a more crucial spot. Of course they got influenced by others as well, but no one transferred innovations as wide as the Phoenicians.

[Condottiere 40K]

Their problem was being at another invasions crossroads, which while was wonderful for the transmission of ideas (theirs and others) and getting rich on trade, has tended to make them vassals of whoever reached the threshold of regional super power.

Possibly they were too individualistic to unite under a single leader and carve out their own living space at the expense of others.

[Rinan]

I think there are quite a lot of civilizations that don't get the credit they deserve.

Some interesting ones:
-All of early medieval Europe. Because a lot of people assume that the moment Rome "falls", all of Europe goes to hell. That just doesn't do justice to the people around at the time, I think. From Byzantium to Charlemagne, a lot more was going on than just hairy barbarians rampaging everywhere!

-The ancient near eastern civilizations, from Sumeria to Persia. A lot of people are "aware" that something special happened there, but afterwards the focus shifts to Egypt and Greece. The Persians for example don't nearly get the attention they deserve, mostly just being mentioned when they come into the scene of the histories of Greece and Rome. Then they're usually portrayed as despotic overlords. Or, as in 300, as a sort of uruk-hai...

[Condottiere 40K]

The Assyrians as the bete noire of the Israelites, the Persians as their saviours (ironically), and the Persians as the antagonists of the Greeks.

[Rinan]

Why ironically?

[Condottiere 40K]

The present Persian successor state is perceived as an existential threat by the secessionist Semitic synthetic state.

[Rinan]

O lol, I wasn't really drawing the connection to the modern world at all, I thought you you referred to ancient history. (Especially since I'd argue ancient Persia has multiple succesor states, just like ancient Rome does; but that's off-topic)

[Copperknickers II]

Sumeria, certainly, is totally neglected. Also the Mughal empire, the empire that united India for the first time, brought it into the modern world, and built the Taj Mahal, the Indian equivalent of the Great Wall of China, the Parthenon, or the Coliseum. I'm sure any Subsaharan African civilisations are pretty underrated, though I don't even know much about them myself. And finally the Ottoman empire, which is woefully unknown by most Westerners considering it was in some ways the successor of both the Byzantines and the Islamic Caliphate, and ruled the Eastern mediterranean for more than 500 years, forcing Europe to give up imperial dominion in the Old World as a lost cause, and fuelling the rise of Portugal, Spain, France and Britain.

[Cyclops]

Sumeria, certainly, is totally neglected....

They do get short shrift in popular culture.

...Also the Mughal empire, the empire that united India for the first time...

A Mr Asoka would like a word. Also a Mrs Saxe Coburg und Gotha.

...brought it into the modern world, and built the Taj Mahal, the Indian equivalent of the Great Wall of China, the Parthenon, or the Coliseum.

...not sure the Mughals brought anyone into the modern world. I also note the Taj Mahal was a self indulgent vanity project, not a public benefit. Beautiful yes, and but just one of many amazing cultural relics in India.

I'm sure any Subsaharan African civilisations are pretty underrated, though I don't even know much about them myself.

Civilisations in the sense of "city building cultures" are thin on the groun in Subsaharan Africa.

And finally the Ottoman empire, which is woefully unknown by most Westerners considering it was in some ways the successor of both the Byzantines and the Islamic Caliphate, and ruled the Eastern mediterranean for more than 500 years, forcing Europe to give up imperial dominion in the Old World as a lost cause, and fuelling the rise of Portugal, Spain, France and Britain.

Yes I think this is of a piece with the ERE, Western Europeans neglecting the force that gave everyone a hiding for centuries. In their day the Ottomans were a byword for invincible ferocity. Any win over them was celebrated like a lottery jackpot.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Samudragupta would also like a word. He's tired of being neglected in favour of a Muslim foreigner and Buddhist heretic.

[Cyclops]

Samudragupta would also like a word. He's tired of being neglected in favour of a Muslim foreigner and Buddhist heretic.

Mrs Saxe Coburg und Gotha sends her greetings to Mr Samudragupta and says he's adorable, would he like to be a princely state ruler? Mr Asoka is somewat offended but refuses to slap a ***** because it goes against his religious beliefs.

[+Marius+]

I can't say about empires and civilizations themselves, but I can surely say that certain feats of certain civilizations are grossly underrated.

For example the Phoenician fleet/naval expansion and especially the 400,000 km of Roman roadwork.

Far more useful and influential to human civilization than building enormous tombs and useless monuments that had to wait a couple of millennia for tourism income to actually matter in any way.

[Tankbustaz]

Also the Mughal empire, the empire that united India for the first time, brought it into the modern world, and built the Taj Mahal, the Indian equivalent of the Great Wall of China, the Parthenon, or the Coliseum.

Well, everything in this statement is pretty wrong.


1st The Mughals never united India, if anything by the time they started on their big conquer everything spree, they were at their peak, and Aurangzeb's campaign caused the empire to die a slow, painful death.
2nd The Taj Mahal if anything can be compared to the Mausoleum at Halicarnassus as they serve the same function. Something akin to the Parthenon would be Gupta Era temples which are kinda cool,or the rock cut reliefs at ellora.
3rd Bought them into the modern world? WTF.


If anything Gupta era India is highly overlooked with everyone focusing on the Mauryans or the Mughals. Would love to know moar about Samudragupta's campaign as he campaigned all over the subcontinent in his lifetime, which no general has ever done successfully after him.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

^Mughals = start of Pre-Modern world?

Yeah imo Samudragupta was really important. He took his father's relatively strong kingdom in Bengal and conquered all of northern India and turned all of southern India into his vassals.

[Tankbustaz]

^Mughals = start of Pre-Modern world?

Yeah imo Samudragupta was really important. He took his father's relatively strong kingdom in Bengal and conquered all of northern India and turned all of southern India into his vassals.

Well Vijaynagar was not known for it's mughalness and it had contacts with Portugal, and was a large source of much trade to Portugal. Buying cannons and muskets and , and by the time they were defeated the bigger European powers were arriving in India on a trading basis.

RE Samudragupta, he also managed to subjugate the Kushans which is pretty cool, and had a nice navy as well. That and his empire later on went toe to toe with the huns without something scarring like them campaigning in the Heartlands of Empire.

[Carl Jung was right]

Shang Kingdom of China. Also Early Zhou.
Hearing most Chinese scholars on it, you'd get the impression that it was for the most part, an ideal country with good rulers and sound public institutions, unlike anything found later even in the resplendent Han and Tang. Even Confucius said that he was merely transmitting knowledge from that era, which is to imply that the customs of the Shang comported to his ideal of sagely government - when even China's greatest sage deferred to the Zhou/Shang/Xie rule, it leads one to wonder just what level of success they must have reached to warrant such memory. Of course we have to look at such claim skeptically, as there was a tendency amongst Chinese scholars to elevate the ancient past in order to support their own doctrines, but the fact that they used the early ancient kings as their role models is still impressive on its own anyways. It's also interesting how the first kings appear to be from most accounts, mere men, as opposed to sons of gods or supernatural beings (Shun was a peasant, Yu was a minister, Yao was a sort of cultural hero) who were raised up to the rulership by the people who recognized their virtues. The first three kings of China didn't pass on the rulership to their children, but rather selected a worthy individual amongst the public to succeed them, thus establishing a solid connection of excellent rulers. Although of course, how much does this account comport with historical reality is up to debate, it's still an interesting contrast to the future underpinnings of the Chinese state with its heaven mandated hereditary succession and colossal bureaucracy.

Most of the civilizations discussed here date to the ancient past. I would like to mention Netherlands. When asked about what European state do they hold as an ideal, people often invoke Prussia or some other aggressive militaristic expansionist state. But its inhabitants settled on an inhospitable scrap of territory in northern Europe, and through centuries of toil, managed to take back land from the swamp and turn it into a beautiful, fertile country. They won their status from the Spanish Empire after decades of bitter war, and managed to retain their independence even when quashed in the midst of several large, constantly warring powers. On top of that the Dutch produced some of the greatest art in Europe and for a while headed its financial and banking system. Netherlands along with the Swiss Republic, constitutions that guaranteed its citizens a great deal of personal liberty and individual freedom, are countries I have a great deal of respect for.

[hassan1159]

west african civilizations, most of the time we depicted them as uncivilized poor people hunting to survive. But i believe in the 16th century(not sure about that) an African king went to mecca for the pilgrimage, with him he took huge loads of gold. So much gold that Venice suffered through an inflation when he decided to pass by.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

west african civilizations, most of the time we depicted them as uncivilized poor people hunting to survive. But i believe in the 16th century(not sure about that) an African king went to mecca for the pilgrimage, with him he took huge loads of gold. So much gold that Venice suffered through an inflation when he decided to pass by.

I think that was the 1200's. From the 1100's until the 1500's sub-Saharan kingdoms were increasing in power. The arrival of Portuguese and other Europeans and even Muslims from Egypt and Morocco sort of stopped their growth. Until these newcomers left Africa the Africans got the ball rolling again. The Europeans returned in the 1800's and cut them short again.

Well Vijaynagar was not known for it's mughalness and it had contacts with Portugal, and was a large source of much trade to Portugal. Buying cannons and muskets and , and by the time they were defeated the bigger European powers were arriving in India on a trading basis.

RE Samudragupta, he also managed to subjugate the Kushans which is pretty cool, and had a nice navy as well. That and his empire later on went toe to toe with the huns without something scarring like them campaigning in the Heartlands of Empire.

It's pretty hard for me to find stuff on India. Vijayanagar is a good example other such kingdoms were the Cholas and the Pandyans. Anything filling the gaps between Guptas and Mauryas are largely forgotten too as are some empires in South East Asia and the Indo-Malay archipelago.

Mrs Saxe Coburg und Gotha sends her greetings to Mr Samudragupta and says he's adorable, would he like to be a princely state ruler? Mr Asoka is somewat offended but refuses to slap a ***** because it goes against his religious beliefs.

Akbar would like to know if Samudragupta wants some lead in him.

Most of the civilizations discussed here date to the ancient past. I would like to mention Netherlands. When asked about what European state do they hold as an ideal, people often invoke Prussia or some other aggressive militaristic expansionist state. But its inhabitants settled on an inhospitable scrap of territory in northern Europe, and through centuries of toil, managed to take back land from the swamp and turn it into a beautiful, fertile country. They won their status from the Spanish Empire after decades of bitter war, and managed to retain their independence even when quashed in the midst of several large, constantly warring powers. On top of that the Dutch produced some of the greatest art in Europe and for a while headed its financial and banking system. Netherlands along with the Swiss Republic, constitutions that guaranteed its citizens a great deal of personal liberty and individual freedom, are countries I have a great deal of respect for.

The Netherlands is a good example of a commercial power house. Their banking rivaled that of the Swiss and Italians and their naval power and commerce rivaled England, they even defeated Spain eventually and challenged the French as well.

[FrancMor13]

That king that you are saying is Mansa Musa, the king of Mali. And because of his hajj, he ruined completely Egypt's economy, the same with Venetian one. I think the most underrated civilisation would be Mali (here in Port. almost 90% of the people don't know that huge empire of the past) or the Tibetan civilisation (did you see that temples? Those temples are awesome (puking rainbows)).

And Netherlands ignored?? Excuse me? I don't know how it is in your countries, but in Portugal everybody knows the acchieving of that once mighty (andstill mighty) nation.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

The Tibetans were indeed very powerful at one point. They had wars with both Tang Dynasty China and the Abbasid Caliphate.