Russia continously violate airspace around the Baltic and tries to lie about it

[Stavros_Kalmpou]

Well, Putin knows Russia is safe during the Winter(Napoleon, Hitler) from any NATO incursions, so he just does anything he wants.

[Gertrudius]

Well, Putin knows Russia is safe during the Winter(Napoleon, Hitler) from any NATO incursions, so he just does anything he wants.

Talk about an oversimplification of extreme proportions. Russia is in no way guaranteed safety by it's winter. Nor is there credence in the notion that Putin is dictating policy based on that "safety". It also presupposes that NATO desires to make military incursions, which is inane. That of course also ignores the historical inaccuracies in simply attributing the "Russian winter" to Hitler and Napoleon's defeat, rather than the real world strategic factors and decisions that were ultimately the proximate cause.

[UselessPoster]

Well, Putin knows Russia is safe during the Winter(Napoleon, Hitler) from any NATO incursions, so he just does anything he wants.

UK are not to be played with though they have the best land force in the world and their army has been in many outnumbering situations putin needs to have the brits on his side that would be something.

[kesa82]

I am sure that we will get a lot of "But America also do this!" or "Everyone is a liar"... But it doesn't really matter. What is interesting in this case is that Russia is breaking a lot of taboos in diplomacy as they move from "plausible denial" to outright lies.

I'm not sure what the United States says or does externally , I'm not reading newspapers in Belgium.
But at home , it certainly appears both governments are in agreement with Hitler that the actual best story is the biggest and most outrageous lie. That , or both countries take their lead in rhetoric from North Korea though otherwise scorning it. There used to be sneaking around and plausible deniability . But they got away with that so often that they are now drifting into the habit of just doing whatever they please and when they of course get caught red-handed , simply flatly deny it or reconstruct reality no matter how fantastical. And why not ? There are no police , court docks , or prison for them.
The king can be stark naked , but if he says he's dressed , then by God he is ! You say otherwise ? Well who are you, and what are you gonna do, call a cop? Lol.

As for Russian expansion , it seems to me a bit like American expansion , they haven't been very good at it , and most likely never will be , unless maybe they take to hiring Scottish , Irish , or German mercenaries. They never did take the Dardanelles from the Turkish sick man , and their adventures in Finland and Afghanistan were fiascos. Just as I could predict without being psychic that Americans adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan would serve them badly rather than well.

[Admiral Piett]

The difference being the US did not attempt to cede land in those countries. You don't see American flags or 'referendums' by Iraqi-Americans to vote to join the US.

[Heathen Hammer]

The difference being the US did not attempt to cede land in those countries. You don't see American flags or 'referendums' by Iraqi-Americans to vote to join the US.

That's because that land was Russian in the first place, and was given to Ukraine by communists to weaken Russians in case they'd decide to rise up against them.
Its like if Wilson would have given Texas to Mexico, and then people who'd want to join it again would be labeled as "terrorists".

[ShockBlast]

That's because that land was Russian in the first place, and was given to Ukraine by communists to weaken Russians in case they'd decide to rise up against them.
Its like if Wilson would have given Texas to Mexico, and then people who'd want to join it again would be labeled as "terrorists".

I don`t know why you even try, no one believes you.

[Aikanár]

Gentlemen,

we do not call other members "rusophobes", like we don't call other members who spread, say, Russian propaganda "paid propagandists". Please keep this in mind and the thread civil and me away from writing love letters carrying warning levels

Address the post and not the poster.

Thank-you, gentlemen.

[AqD]

What is this? Payback for sanctions?

Or an invitation of foreign occupation to save his country.


That or he's insane, or his position is threatened internally.

[kesa82]

The difference being the US did not attempt to cede land in those countries. You don't see American flags or 'referendums' by Iraqi-Americans to vote to join the US.

Perfectly valid point , so no sense arguing it.

I would say though that by different means both states arrive at the same muddled end.

Russia tries to cede territory , why ? In the 19th century or before expansion may have been a money maker , and in the Soviet era Communism did need to expand ; an alternative to Communism that people can relocate to is bad news for Communism.
But now ? I think Moscow already has more territory and population than it can adequately husband.

For its part , the USA has gone on all sorts of adventures too numerous to list since 1898 , and never to annex territory or create 51st or 52nd states , but always , generally , with the motive ; Fight the problem THERE , instead of fighting the problem at HOME.
--- Except that strategy it seems to me only makes any sense in terms of the long term . It only makes sense to get involved in South Vietnam or Afghanistan if you plan from the beginning to stick around 50 or 100 years.
But why do that ?? Americans don't really care about water and sewer management in Kabul , or land zoning in Hue.

So , all in all , I see some sense perhaps in Liechtenstein nationalism , but Russian and American nationalism seem very much largely about fantasy and emotion , but highly abstracted emotion at that.
Necessarily then the only game in town in either case is The most extreme sophistry and obsfucation.

[Carl Jung was right]

Putin is Hitler so we must invade Russia right now to pre-emptively stop him from possibly being a threat to us in the future. Yeah that makes sense.

However, most pro-Russians refuse to acknowledge that the seizure of Crimea and support for the rebels is a disastrous and idiotic policy intended to cover up past months of egomaniacal Sochi fixation at a time when a serious conflict was brewing in its nearest ally and neighbor. As the situation unfolded, Putin had plenty of months during which he could have all but diffused the situation by pressuring his Kiev stooge to yield some demands of the protesters, at least on the economic side. Nowadays Putin all but surrounded himself with ultra-nationalist lackeys, paranoid FSB policy "experts" and other brands of lickspittles seeking to get rich off the Kremlin's back, quashing all criticism in the press and online discourse. The official channels of information in Russia spew a fantastical narrative which play upon Russians' Talmud-esque reveration of the Great War Cult. As a result, the Russian leadership not only bereaves itself of advisors who might have delivered an unpopular, "unpatriotic", but sober assessment of their policy, but also dangerously fuels aggressive nationalistic sentiment, which might lead to severe problems in the future.

Still there's very little the West could do except artificially manipulate oil prices down in the hopes that this will collapse the Russian economy and compel the major business magnates behind Putin to yank their leash.

[Roma_Victrix]

Kind of old news by now, but what the hell! I'll share it anyway.

Finland feeling vulnerable amid Russian provocations

[Heathen Hammer]

I don`t know why you even try, no one believes you.

Just because you have anti-Russian bias, doesn't mean everybody else here shares your views.

Putin is Hitler so we must invade Russia right now to pre-emptively stop him from possibly being a threat to us in the future. Yeah that makes sense.

That worked so well in the past.

[I WUB PUGS]

Shoot them down.

From Ferrets link on the first page.

Odd position to tag a photo there BBC Russia.

[Stavroforos]

It annoys me beyond imagining that they decided to put BBC (VVS) on their airplanes in such a large font again. Not only is it stupid because it confuses people, but it just looks horrible. Reminds me of the big "Canada" logo all RCAF planes have.

[I WUB PUGS]

I don't think its so bad, though I'm near positive its the exact same logo they use on everything from "Made in Canada" to "Visit Canada" so, yeah, its kind of dumb.

Nothing more friendly than the Aussie and Kiwi roundels though.

[Stavroforos]

I don't think its so bad, though I'm near positive its the exact same logo they use on everything from "Made in Canada" to "Visit Canada" so, yeah, its kind of dumb.

Nothing more friendly than the Aussie and Kiwi roundels though.

It looks like they're part of Canada, Inc. or something. They were probably just trying to imitate Air Force One but missed the point entirely.

[conon394]

The well-known fact that the US government classifies as ''unemployed'' only the people actively looking for a job, and leaves out the discouraged workers that after a while give up, a number that has been booming since the 2007-8 crisis.
Point 3:

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/...mployment-rate

or if you want a more detailed explanation:

http://blogs.ft.com/gavyndavies/2013...nt-statistics/

with the participation of the labour force to the market being a trend downwards since the above mentioned event, despite Obama boasting how he created jobs.

Lies, lies and more lies.

Umm no you really need to avoid rant sites:

The BLS does exactly what it is asked to do - dutifully and in a variety of measures. And they report all for free to the public and it on their web site. The 'unemployment number' is not a lie it just the exact statistic that it was designed to be - the Fact is that technically U3 might maybe be a hint there are other U numbers or at least that's what i would assume...

If you look at all the numbers the BLS fairly reports discouraged workers, people leaving the labor force, labor growth, the under employed, trends in wage rates etc. Its all right out in plain view. What pols or the media choose to say is their business but there is no government lie. Similarly the States report more granular data for states and cities - again what lie.

Are they statistical estimates - of course - it simply not feasible to do anything else does not make lies however - nope. I mean for f-sake the US census is only feasible once a decade. And even it need statistical adjustment in a country this vast to correct for data collection error. Does the public deserve better reporting from the media probably. but the simple fact is sure 'Unemployment' (U3) is gross national measure of certain clearly defined rules/conditions and that is all it was designed to be. It can't tell you employment is great in North Dakota and uber crappy in Detroit - that not what is measures nor a lot of other things.

Sorry all for the OT rant - I missed this reply. But the simple fact the US government dutifully makes its data available and its methods. If you think your being lied to just at the appropriate Federal and State web sites to your saved links and brush on your statistics.

[Basil II the B.S]

Umm no you really need to avoid rant sites:

The BLS does exactly what it is asked to do - dutifully and in a variety of measures. And they report all for free to the public and it on their web site. The 'unemployment number' is not a lie it just the exact statistic that it was designed to be - the Fact is that technically U3 might maybe be a hint there are other U numbers or at least that's what i would assume...

If you look at all the numbers the BLS fairly reports discouraged workers, people leaving the labor force, labor growth, the under employed, trends in wage rates etc. Its all right out in plain view. What pols or the media choose to say is their business but there is no government lie. Similarly the States report more granular data for states and cities - again what lie.

Are they statistical estimates - of course - it simply not feasible to do anything else does not make lies however - nope. I mean for f-sake the US census is only feasible once a decade. And even it need statistical adjustment in a country this vast to correct for data collection error. Does the public deserve better reporting from the media probably. but the simple fact is sure 'Unemployment' (U3) is gross national measure of certain clearly defined rules/conditions and that is all it was designed to be. It can't tell you employment is great in North Dakota and uber crappy in Detroit - that not what is measures nor a lot of other things.

Sorry all for the OT rant - I missed this reply. But the simple fact the US government dutifully makes its data available and its methods. If you think your being lied to just at the appropriate Federal and State web sites to your saved links and brush on your statistics.

It is rather convenient to define unemployed only those actively seeking a job, while leaving out all those able bodied and fully in a working age that have given up on the job market since 2008. And yes, when Obama goes on tv saying ''our unemployment rate is down to 5.9%'' as he created jobs or improved significally the economic situation of the country, when in reality he didn't at all, it's just that a massive chunk of the population is leaving the job market, it's a ridiculous misrepresantation of reality, in other words a lie. You are right when saying that the data collected don't lie, it's the way they are presented that is a lie.

[I WUB PUGS]

Politicians routinely pick the "U number" that suits their narrative. During the last presidential election, Romney picked the higher number and Obama IIRC stuck to the generally accepted U3 number that most people cite. Obviously that U3 number was lower than whichever U number Romney was using. Point is both were using REAL data to support their narratives. Real data collected by the same group.

It is nothing new. Everyone does it. They always will.

Statistics are fine and all, but you can always find a way to scale them in a way to make your argument appear valid to those that are already receptive to your position. Your detractors will always find a way to refute them.