How does VV differ from DEI?

[AuburnAlumni]

Hey guys,

I'm excited to see how this mod is progressing. I've been using Divide Et Impera and I know that this mod, like DEI, is focused on historical accuracy.

What are the major differences, in your view, between the two?

[Roach]

I cannot speak to all the differences.. both mods have lofty goals and are at various steps along the road to reaching those goals.

The major difference is one of philosophy - the priorities that drive design choices. Vae Victis puts historical accuracy and realism above all else. While we appreciate the value of things like balanced faction rosters and other things that enhance "gameplay", we are not willing to sacrifice historical accuracy to boost those things. In Vae Victis, if a faction did not use a unit in real life history, then it does not show up in the mod. This means that some factions are noticeably weak and will have to hire mercenaries to compete (just like what happened in real life).

Another area where our utter devotion to historical accuracy shows up is in our unit statistics, which takes into account each units historical equipment, age, socio-economic background and more to create stats and realistic costs from the ground up. We spent months developing this system because we did not just want a system that works, but one that reflects the historical reality and economics of the era. We apply this kind of thinking to every part of our overhaul, from politics to seasons etc.

The best way to find out in detail is to try both mods. This mod certainly is still a work in progress, and will hopefully improve with every hotfix and content upgrade.

I'm sure we have fans who have plenty of experience playing both mods who can bring more insight than my insular developer focus allows me (Listing differences is ok, purely negative comments about DEI will get deleted.)

[MattyCakes]

I'm going to chime on this. TL;DR at the bottom. None of this criticism is negative, Please note I stress both mods are not finished.

I would say the main difference between the two is the focus of what they've released so far.

I've been playing DEI for quite some time now and I would have abandoned Rome 2 long ago if it wasn't for its wonderful expansion of the main game. That being said, DEI has spent a great deal of resources overhauling the campaign and unit rosters. They have a combat overhaul coming but it's months away. The artwork on the unit rosters is exquisite and a lot of love has gone into them. They are kind of full though and as a result, each faction gets some redundant units and equivalents. This is very likely to feel different after they overhaul combat.

The combat at present is what I'd describe as flat. Battles go on long and it's safe to say that DEI has led the charge in this style of combat. You can enjoy watching troops duke it out and while flanking tactics work there isn't enough depth to their fighting at the moment. They have A TON of campaign features. Dresden, now team lead is very innovative and has incorporated much of his earlier mods into DEI. You'll find large empires, interesting edicts, immersive skill trees and other mechanics as well. Their AOR (Area of Recruitment) has to be mentioned as well. It's very fleshed out and means you'll realistically have to rely on locals to fight wars far from home. The reform upgrades for faction rosters are wonderful and give your armies a sense of evolution.

Vae Victis' focus so far is unit rosters, combat and cultural differentiation. As Roach said above, each faction is quite different from others - advantages and drawbacks that make battles between different ones truly exciting. The combat, in my opinion is second to none. It's exhilarating and not enough credit can be given to the team for devising the highly realistic system they've implemented. You have to really use your common sense and intuition instead of creating a plain well rounded army and tactics are a must. Things like fatigue, terrain, weather, equipment, weight, weapons and skill of your troops need to be considered.

The units are stunning and the rosters don't feel like variations of one another. The AI is quite nasty and will put up a fight and I have to say that there's a much more natural pace to the game. You won't be rushing to finish buildings and race for certain techs. The artwork and atmosphere is also shaping up quite nicely. VV has different user interfaces for different factions and a very nice special effects package that comes with the mod. There are some really nice campaign changes on the way as well and I have a hunch that VV's economy will be as realistic as it's combat.

TL;DR: Both mods are in different stages of their development and their current releases focus on different things.

-At the moment DEI has a strong campaign with a ton of features. You feel in control of an empire. Unfortunately, uneventful combat and sometimes bloated rosters mean there isn't enough differentiation between them besides specialists units, bonuses and some edicts.

-VV has incredible and realistic combat and factions that feel very different from each other. Encountering a new people means adjusting your strategy to their armaments and it will make you rethink the way you play. Your soldiers feel real, battles are dynamic and you feel every victory and loss quite deeply. The campaign features are closer to vanilla Rome 2 but the pace is much more deliberate and strategic. The included FX and little artistic touches are also top-notch.

Hope this helps

As a final note I have to say: Try Vae Victis before deciding anything. I don't think I can ever go back to any other kind of combat. It's addictive.

[Sir_Pee_Alot]

Vae Victis puts historical accuracy and realism above all else.

This really speaks to me. Finally a mod that goes for total realism and not a "What if" Some People say you cant have fun in total historical realism mods but i always have more fun in historical accurate mods then mods like Radious with OP units that are 50/50 historical.

I really hope this mod will get its support that it sould get and cant wait to see what you guys are doing with the building overhaul and goverment and stuff.


And for DeI its a good mod but they keep adding units while there battle system is not balanced they sould have first fixed there battle system and build opon that. but its a good mod but i think VV will get even better when everthing is overhauled.

[TraxTebeDox]

Hey, first for all thanks for your amazing job. Its most epic thing i ever play. Since SS for Kingdoms. I think this time a past, but u bring a new life in TW series. Thanks you.

And i have a question about simple thing. Ballista. Yes Ballista. AI have problem with Ballista. When you filed army with 5 Ballista - AI always charge on you. No matter what happen. And for sure most time you win the battel. And what you thing about this? Ballista was to over powerful in these times and can hurt army of enemy so hard?

And i try to find what other do with Ballista. In DEI - Ballista have a huge nerf, of fire speed and lost a special ability. And now its have no sense to use em in this way and spend 5 slots in army for them. I dont say they better. No. Just what to see, what you thinking about artillery in this period of time. And if ballista balanced already. Then sorry

[Magnar]

Hey, first for all thanks for your amazing job. Its most epic thing i ever play. Since SS for Kingdoms. I think this time a past, but u bring a new life in TW series. Thanks you.

And i have a question about simple thing. Ballista. Yes Ballista. AI have problem with Ballista. When you filed army with 5 Ballista - AI always charge on you. No matter what happen. And for sure most time you win the battel. And what you thing about this? Ballista was to over powerful in these times and can hurt army of enemy so hard?

And i try to find what other do with Ballista. In DEI - Ballista have a huge nerf, of fire speed and lost a special ability. And now its have no sense to use em in this way and spend 5 slots in army for them. I dont say they better. No. Just what to see, what you thinking about artillery in this period of time. And if ballista balanced already. Then sorry

Most artillery should be much more inaccurate in the mod already though we have not given as much attention to them as we have to the melee and lighter missiles. We will get to reworking them more in the future im sure.

[AndariusHaliusScipio]

I'm going to chime on this. TL;DR at the bottom. None of this criticism is negative, Please note I stress both mods are not finished.

I would say the main difference between the two is the focus of what they've released so far.

I've been playing DEI for quite some time now and I would have abandoned Rome 2 long ago if it wasn't for its wonderful expansion of the main game. That being said, DEI has spent a great deal of resources overhauling the campaign and unit rosters. They have a combat overhaul coming but it's months away. The artwork on the unit rosters is exquisite and a lot of love has gone into them. They are kind of full though and as a result, each faction gets some redundant units and equivalents. This is very likely to feel different after they overhaul combat.

The combat at present is what I'd describe as flat. Battles go on long and it's safe to say that DEI has led the charge in this style of combat. You can enjoy watching troops duke it out and while flanking tactics work there isn't enough depth to their fighting at the moment. They have A TON of campaign features. Dresden, now team lead is very innovative and has incorporated much of his earlier mods into DEI. You'll find large empires, interesting edicts, immersive skill trees and other mechanics as well. Their AOR (Area of Recruitment) has to be mentioned as well. It's very fleshed out and means you'll realistically have to rely on locals to fight wars far from home. The reform upgrades for faction rosters are wonderful and give your armies a sense of evolution.

Vae Victis' focus so far is unit rosters, combat and cultural differentiation. As Roach said above, each faction is quite different from others - advantages and drawbacks that make battles between different ones truly exciting. The combat, in my opinion is second to none. It's exhilarating and not enough credit can be given to the team for devising the highly realistic system they've implemented. You have to really use your common sense and intuition instead of creating a plain well rounded army and tactics are a must. Things like fatigue, terrain, weather, equipment, weight, weapons and skill of your troops need to be considered.

The units are stunning and the rosters don't feel like variations of one another. The AI is quite nasty and will put up a fight and I have to say that there's a much more natural pace to the game. You won't be rushing to finish buildings and race for certain techs. The artwork and atmosphere is also shaping up quite nicely. VV has different user interfaces for different factions and a very nice special effects package that comes with the mod. There are some really nice campaign changes on the way as well and I have a hunch that VV's economy will be as realistic as it's combat.

TL;DR: Both mods are in different stages of their development and their current releases focus on different things.

-At the moment DEI has a strong campaign with a ton of features. You feel in control of an empire. Unfortunately, uneventful combat and sometimes bloated rosters mean there isn't enough differentiation between them besides specialists units, bonuses and some edicts.

-VV has incredible and realistic combat and factions that feel very different from each other. Encountering a new people means adjusting your strategy to their armaments and it will make you rethink the way you play. Your soldiers feel real, battles are dynamic and you feel every victory and loss quite deeply. The campaign features are closer to vanilla Rome 2 but the pace is much more deliberate and strategic. The included FX and little artistic touches are also top-notch.

Hope this helps

As a final note I have to say: Try Vae Victis before deciding anything. I don't think I can ever go back to any other kind of combat. It's addictive.

This has been immensely helpful for me, but would you be willing to further explain the differences between the two mods in terms of the Campaign Map experience and such?

[MattyCakes]

To sum it up briefly (their forum sticky threads explain this better) DEI works off of a 4tpy game mode that uses larger main factions (Carthage, Seleucids, etc.). Public order is handled inversely so you'll have to keep armies out of cities which adds a dimension there. They've repurposed diplomats into governors with their own skill tree to tie into that. Each culture gets interesting edicts and there's a full traits system for your generals. DEI still uses their own take on the old building system and their politics and economy are modified as well. Their is an abundance of extra features in their campaign.

At the moment Vae Victis is more of a rebalanced vanilla then a modded one. Building prices, times and research has all been altered to make for a much slower pace. The mod shares the trait system used in DEI (TTT) and garrisons are much larger resulting in factions spending money on armies then taking a bit to build back up because the cities can defend itself. There's some placeholder stances. The slight rebalancing has resulted in a longer game where every action seems to be a risk or gamble until the late game and it's all focused locally (unless you're exploring).

Alot of features haven't been implemented but I'm not doing it justice. Glance through some of the information threads to see what's coming up. Personally I'd describe the difference as feeling very focused on a global scale (DEI) to feeling patient dealing with local conflicts and focusing on warfare. There's a hotfix coming out in a few days so this could all be way off.

They're both WIP projects and the best way to understand the differences is to try them out.

[Magnar]

On campaign features, some features of VV that havent been mentioned are:

-Army stances - have been reworked with more cultural variations and added effects (these will be developed further in future updates)
-Season effects - The VV season effects are by far the most dynamic and complex season effects of any mod.
- Politics - Our politics overhaul module is currently a separate mod to the main packs but will be included once it is complete. It, just like the seasons, will be the most extensive political overhaul available once completed.
- Unit Experience System - Our unit experience system is directly related to a units equipment and age to add more dynamics to the types of troops you choose to field on the battle.
- New Cultures - VV adds hindu, jewish and egyptian cultures

There is a lot more that we have done, but it largely just tweaks to vanilla systems. We have planned to do a whole lot more however including a buildings overhaul (no vanilla building will remain), technology, edict and agent overhauls and some others which should be vastly different to what vanilla has.

[skimyy]

I really hope you guys focus on the historical/realistic accuracy of "Valuable" Armies.

Units should have very high recruitment and upkeep costs and armies should be limited. If you lose an army it should have an impact, not "oh i'll just make another one... lol"

Right now DeI is a mod where you can recruit Roman legions at 50 upkeep and like 400 to recruit... the mod promotes constant battle grinding... which is absolutely against realistic/historical gameplay and also is just not fun.

One thing you SHOULD have is to have upkeep and recruitment costs increasing (NOT decreasing) as a player develops his Military Technology. Also it should take a decent amount of time to recruit units.

It is ABSOLUTELY stupid how the AI and the Player can just recruit mass armies at the cheap in a short amount of time only to become a major GRINDFEST (like your farming for resources in an MMORPG).

It is a FACT that 99% of the player base probably gets frustrated in the mid-late game from the endless grindfest battles (instead of having more historical/realistic "decisive" battles).

However I know that this is a very difficult thing to mod because CA's Campaign AI is absolutely retarded (I heard they cannot handle recruiting units that takes 2+ turns and also recruiting expensive units) but I think I'm speaking for the majority of the R2TW players who are looking for mods of how we want to have decisive and meaningful battles and reduce the constant "farming/grinding" of battles.

Just something I hope some modders will work on in the future.

I guess what I'm trying to basically say is:
Please make the mod unique. We don't need another DeI/Radious mod with minor differences. Bringing a SIGNIFICANT change to recruitment and making battles feel meaningful would be one way to distinguish this mod from others.

[Magnar]

I really hope you guys focus on the historical/realistic accuracy of "Valuable" Armies.

Units should have very high recruitment and upkeep costs and armies should be limited. If you lose an army it should have an impact, not "oh i'll just make another one... lol"

Right now DeI is a mod where you can recruit Roman legions at 50 upkeep and like 400 to recruit... the mod promotes constant battle grinding... which is absolutely against realistic/historical gameplay and also is just not fun.

One thing you SHOULD have is to have upkeep and recruitment costs increasing (NOT decreasing) as a player develops his Military Technology. Also it should take a decent amount of time to recruit units.

It is ABSOLUTELY stupid how the AI and the Player can just recruit mass armies at the cheap in a short amount of time only to become a major GRINDFEST (like your farming for resources in an MMORPG).

It is a FACT that 99% of the player base probably gets frustrated in the mid-late game from the endless grindfest battles (instead of having more historical/realistic "decisive" battles).

However I know that this is a very difficult thing to mod because CA's Campaign AI is absolutely retarded (I heard they cannot handle recruiting units that takes 2+ turns and also recruiting expensive units) but I think I'm speaking for the majority of the R2TW players who are looking for mods of how we want to have decisive and meaningful battles and reduce the constant "farming/grinding" of battles.

Just something I hope some modders will work on in the future.

I guess what I'm trying to basically say is:
Please make the mod unique. We don't need another DeI/Radious mod with minor differences. Bringing a SIGNIFICANT change to recruitment and making battles feel meaningful would be one way to distinguish this mod from others.

Please try the mod. You will then see how different it already is.

Also this mod (Magnar Mod) was started well before DeI, so it would be hard for it to be another DeI

[gatehouse]

Please try the mod. You will then see how different it already is.

Also this mod (Magnar Mod) was started well before DeI, so it would be hard for it to be another DeI

I really like DEI but the grindfest nature of conquest is one of the most annoying things about it. I'll check out VV in the next couple days and circle back to this thread with my impressions

[Magnar]

I really like DEI but the grindfest nature of conquest is one of the most annoying things about it. I'll check out VV in the next couple days and circle back to this thread with my impressions

Probably best to wait for the hotfix release as it fixes a whole heap of issues with the current release and is almost ready.

[Aenima]

Probably best to wait for the hotfix release as it fixes a whole heap of issues with the current release and is almost ready.

Will it be save-game compatible or am I better off just waiting for it to be released and then playing?

[Magnar]

Will it be save-game compatible or am I better off just waiting for it to be released and then playing?

Id recommend waiting as a number of things have changed with the startpos eg some factions with wrong culture which wont be fixed in save games. Also some save games seem to load fine but others not.

I am uploading a wip version atm for those that want to try it out and give feedback and if all is well then the official release version will be updated on the weekend.

Check the next update thread shortly for the download link and a list of what changes/fixes/tweaks it includes. It will be in the OP.

[Aenima]

Id recommend waiting as a number of things have changed with the startpos eg some factions with wrong culture which wont be fixed in save games. Also some save games seem to load fine but others not.

I am uploading a wip version atm for those that want to try it out and give feedback and if all is well then the official release version will be updated on the weekend.

Check the next update thread shortly for the download link and a list of what changes/fixes/tweaks it includes. It will be in the OP.

Thanks, Magnar, appreciate the response.

I take it that the mod won't update on Steam and that I should keep an eye on this forum for updates and the like, then?

[Magnar]

Thanks, Magnar, appreciate the response.

I take it that the mod won't update on Steam and that I should keep an eye on this forum for updates and the like, then?

The hotfix will be offcially released on the normal dl links and steam after CA's DLC is released

[KaerMorhen]

It's rather difficult to compare these two mods when one is well shaped and progressing and the second is in early stage. Though I believe VV will earn it place soon enough. This far I stay with DEI.

[Aenima]

The hotfix will be offcially released on the normal dl links and steam after CA's DLC is released

DLC? I thought Rome 2's DLC was all done?

[Magnar]

DLC? I thought Rome 2's DLC was all done?

Nope, new one coming on the 20th November