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Thread: UK-Germany political tensions raise over immigration

  1. #41
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: UK-Germany political tensions raise over immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by DaVinci View Post
    ..portuguese's economy doesn't need the many uni-degrees
    Indeed, Merkel said it.Ridiculous.
    Frankly, a 2011 OECD study reported that in Sweden, for example, 35 percent of workers were overqualified for their current jobs. So what? All countries rapidly developing their education system are especially susceptible to this...*cough*...danger? even in countries where unemployment is much lower, there is always the risk that there will be more graduates than jobs - but, I repeat, Portugal is among the three OECD countries with the lowest proportion of adults with tertiary education (17%, in contrast with the OECD average of 32%).
    And, guess what, in all the OECD, Portugal has one of the highest emigration rates of workers with a university education.Worst than us only Ireland.
    Even the Deutsche Bank recognizes,
    " it is obvious that a lasting exodus of skills from the southern periphery would entail serious structural problems and undermine the growth potential there"


    --------

    Young, qualified and jobless: plight of Europe's best

    ...And they reject the idea of a strictly utilitarian system, tailoring courses and student numbers to available jobs. "University has to be about developing our minds, too," says Caterina Moruzzi, 22, a philosophy master's student at Bologna. "People should be able to pursue what interests them. What would society be otherwise?"
    Merkel's ideology: market deregulation + regulated education. A happy marriage between communism and liberalism.
    Last edited by Ludicus; November 05, 2014 at 12:46 PM.
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  2. #42
    DaVinci's Avatar TW Modder 2005-2016
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    Default Re: UK-Germany political tensions raise over immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Indeed, Merkel said it.Ridiculous.
    Frankly, a 2011 OECD study reported that in Sweden, for example, 35 percent of workers were overqualified for their current jobs. So what? All countries rapidly developing their education system are especially susceptible to this...*cough*...danger? even in countries where unemployment is much lower, there is always the risk that there will be more graduates than jobs - but, I repeat, Portugal is among the three OECD countries with the lowest proportion of adults with tertiary education (17%, in contrast with the OECD average of 32%).
    And, guess what, in all the OECD, Portugal has one of the highest emigration rates of workers with a university education.Worst than us only Ireland.
    Even the Deutsche Bank recognizes,
    " it is obvious that a lasting exodus of skills from the southern periphery would entail serious structural problems and undermine the growth potential there"


    --------

    Young, qualified and jobless: plight of Europe's best



    Merkel's ideology: market deregulation + regulated education. A happy marriage between communism and liberalism.
    I can understand some of the frustration, which you express in your posts all over the place regarding the items of the EU matter, nobody is 100 % for that what is happening in EU relations, i'm critical in diverse EU items. However, it is also obvious, that many have not the insight (for the greater picture), that something like the EU is always mere experimental, or in other words, 100 % "happiness" (satisfaction) for everybody is impossible. And i agree, that Merkel makes ridiculous items (but like many other public/political persons ... it is useful for politcial satire etc.).

    And it must be noted imo., 1st, i don't like it if posters like you use quotes of extreme limited excerpts of comments which were written in context (this is merely stupid, and has the purpose to ie. belittle certain comments from others). As next, 2nd, in your posting style, one can observe germanophobia all the way, obviously a special kind of xenophoby from quite some british people (since WWII, btw., while understandable for the generations which suffered, it is counterproductive today, but it was also in the past), but as i'm certain you are a young man, it is obvious that here also a kind of, neo- or whatever, british nationalism plays a role (nah, but unimportant for me personally, merely should make some thoughts for the british citizens themselves). 3rd, to your last sentence, that statement is utterly nonsense, you have no overview for the real things, obviously, and you seem (often) to jump on some certain details to make an agenda (a serious meant one, if one reads your comments, just not satire), if not this (perhaps i exagerate), you are clearly exagerating the item here "Merkel's ideology" to make a ready emotion/voice (like placat-promotion, or case open/case closed "look, he/she is such a person") vs. certain persons of the political platform due to certain events (sorry, but i must call that populism, style of the rainbow press). Outgoing recommendation: A bit more easy taking (but i often have to mantra-ing it to myself , as i know you are not one of our active/typical populists and/or fascists in TWC.
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  3. #43

    Default Re: UK-Germany political tensions raise over immigration

    The issue of overqualified people lacking jobs is of the type which has zero chances of ever been solved by politicians.

    The reasons are the laws of physics make it impossible for education to be synchronized with the evolution of economy.

    The laws of physics which govern the functioning of the human brain limit the speed at which humans can acquire knowledge. Any type of knowledge. When it comes to the types of knowledge implied by the higher education, we're already talking about between 3 to 5 years.

    The same laws of physics make it possible for the economic situation to shift dramatically in a matter of seconds (think how fast the markets crash). Therefore what seems like a great career choice today might turn out to be less fit to the market conditions 3 years from now on.

    Politicians of course love to talk about this solution or that solution, because talk is cheap and gets votes.

    But until we can find a way of turning say stockbrokers into doctors in like 90 days, we cannot solve situations similar to "the markets have just crashed and we have to fire thousands of people from the financial sector while in the same time we have a serious shortage in the health sector".

    Quite likely the technology would fix that with stuff like brain implants .

    But we're not there yet, so Merkel can say some things and some other politicians can counter her by saying other things, without anybody actually being able to do something about it.
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  4. #44

    Default Re: UK-Germany political tensions raise over immigration

    There's no such thing as too many university graduates. That's like saying "There are too many people that can read" or "too many healthy people". I don't believe that Merkel would say such an insane thing. Perhaps there's been a mis-translation or something in the news reports.
    Perhaps she meant too many unemployed graduates?
    No it wasnt lost in translation she said it... in the context we Spain and Portugal would be better off with vocational system of education....
    Its purely rethoric, and populist, she speaks out of ignorance or a superficial knowledge of this countries... doesnt matter if you have vocational education... when your shopkeepers, carpinters, stonemasons, or industrial employees, are uni-graduates.... and above all, it matters litle when you have such education when that particular economic tissue has no demand whatsoever for it... unlike it happens in Germany where there is a strong industrial mass in the economy.

    As next, 2nd, in your posting style, one can observe germanophobia all the way...
    Speaking as felow Portuguese or a Felow "PIIGS" i can understand where he comes from, and i understand you mean Germanphobia regarding German Politics in the EU.... otherway arround is just silly to be honest.
    Im against this Germany as foreign Policy is concerned and its effects in the EU ( wich are all painfully obvious for everyone safe for some people for some reason), nothing against the German people, in wich there is alot of Portuguese descendents and Emigrants for once...

    Honestly why does merkel say this things about this countries? Its not even her Place to tell us how we should be governed... or maybe it has become her place i guess.... you know like when she has those ridiculous tirades when she says the PIIGS have too many holydays, and retire to early, and work less then others... Even if it was true wich is not ( its broad bigoted generalization that doesnt even aims at the problem) as Chancellor she should have never said it... but i understand the alure of some votes and the need to apeal to a certain electorate...
    Its even her place to say what UK should or not do regarding EU laws? Who is in charge and who dominates the EU core decisions anyway?
    Last edited by Knight of Heaven; November 06, 2014 at 01:04 PM.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: UK-Germany political tensions raise over immigration

    Germany acts geopolitically and tries to keep East Europeans happy in EU and NATO , preventing possible Russian influence .
    UK won't understand it , situating too far away to see Russia only as very abstract and distant threat .
    second thing is UK is not happy to pay billions to support non-contributing members .
    http://www.eu-oplysningen.dk/euo_en/spsv/all/79/

    http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...over-surcharge
    Last edited by Edelfred; November 06, 2014 at 05:57 PM.
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  6. #46

    Default Re: UK-Germany political tensions raise over immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight of Heaven View Post
    No it wasnt lost in translation she said it... in the context we Spain and Portugal would be better off with vocational system of education....
    Its purely rethoric, and populist, she speaks out of ignorance or a superficial knowledge of this countries... doesnt matter if you have vocational education... when your shopkeepers, carpinters, stonemasons, or industrial employees, are uni-graduates.... and above all, it matters litle when you have such education when that particular economic tissue has no demand whatsoever for it... unlike it happens in Germany where there is a strong industrial mass in the economy.

    ...
    Germany has also a strong vocational branch of education which replaces a good lot of bachelor/master degrees in other countries. It's the reason germany lags behind in academic degrees, those degrees aren't counted as such although in practicality they are as or more valuable to the economy.
    I don't want to defend her completely but Merkel's words get twisted a lot in the Euro crisis and while I don't like her she leaves her party's populism to her state secretaries.
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    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: UK-Germany political tensions raise over immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Mangalore View Post
    Germany has also a strong vocational branch of education which replaces a good lot of bachelor/master degrees in other countries. It's the reason germany lags behind in academic degrees, those degrees aren't counted as such although in practicality they are as or more valuable to the economy.
    I don't want to defend her completely but Merkel's words get twisted a lot in the Euro crisis and while I don't like her she leaves her party's populism to her state secretaries.
    So, what did she say?
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  8. #48
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    Default Re: UK-Germany political tensions raise over immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Is it really that serious Ferrets? I believed it was more talk than substance. England leaving the EU? That's too weird and big to contemplate. A lot of people I know go for work/studies in England.
    How many England citizens want to leave EU? How many MPs want to leave EU?

    I can't believe we've been brought to a point where I'm seriously discussing a rich, deeply European-culture country like England leaving. That's like saying Neatherlands or Belgium discussing to leave. That's just too weird...



    There's no such thing as too many university graduates. That's like saying "There are too many people that can read" or "too many healthy people". I don't believe that Merkel would say such an insane thing. Perhaps there's been a mis-translation or something in the news reports.
    Perhaps she meant too many unemployed graduates?
    More like she thinks that many university students are studying for nothing and wasting 4 years of their life instead of working and contributing to the country's workforce. Not every work needs a high- diploma and many jobs are being filled with immigrants and graduates are sitting with their diploma and thinking they are above common jobs. That makes a shortage of technical and vocational high school graudates jus starting jobs after they finish high school.
    Last edited by cenkiss; November 10, 2014 at 05:20 PM.

  9. #49
    Dante Von Hespburg's Avatar Sloth's Inferno
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    Default Re: UK-Germany political tensions raise over immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by cenkiss View Post
    More like she thinks that many university students are studying for nothing and wasting 4 years of their life instead of working and contributing to the country's workforce. Not every work needs a high- diploma and many jobs are being filled with immigrants and graduates are sitting with their diploma and thinking they are above common jobs. That makes a shortage of technical and vocational high school graudates jus starting jobs after they finish high school.
    and yet as technology progress, and more and more industries become far more complex the demand for an educated workforce increase. Degrees become more important (remember a degrees skills are transferable outside it's scope to, as most degrees provide problem solving strategies, analytical skills, communication etc) not just academic, but also the practical equivalents of the degrees- ICT degrees, Engineering etc.

    So it pretty much is a stupid statement, which i'm hoping has been misinterpreted. Since discouraging (or preventing) young people who are capable of getting a degree from doing so not only holds them back, but also in the mid-term will actually destroy economic growth as rivals with a better educated pool of workers outstrip them as said state fails to keep apace in innovation. More than that though as i've said, encouraging degrees opens up the international world for aspiring citizens to take advantage of an increasingly globalized world and actually set up businesses- small and large, degrees here also have a place not only in many cases opening the door to this, but also providing the confidence, or indeed the business links and network for people to make such things possible, and again degrees aren't just academic, their are many many practical ones too.

    So is Merkel really saying we should force young people to not partake in further education? And so in the mid-long term actually cripple economic growth? As the numbers of students in other western states just increases, and business technology and techniques further advance, Portugal would be left here with a large unskilled workforce unable to compete in the modern world. Any attempts to curtail education should be looked upon as the height of economic suicide arguably, and also just plain silliness.
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  10. #50
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    Default Re: UK-Germany political tensions raise over immigration

    Fully agreed.

    However, it is up to Ludi to provide us the proof for that what Merkel apparently said, but as mentioned, it is thinkable that she indeed said exactly that, what Ludi claimed ... still would like to see the evidence just out of curiousity.
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    Default Re: UK-Germany political tensions raise over immigration

    UK needs to leave and hopefully Ireland and Greece will follow. There is no benefit in being a German vassal while immigrants destroy your native culture. Delenda est EU (Fourth Reich).


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  12. #52
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    Default Re: UK-Germany political tensions raise over immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Cleomenes III View Post
    UK needs to leave and hopefully Ireland and Greece will follow. There is no benefit in being a German vassal while immigrants destroy your native culture. Delenda est EU (Fourth Reich).
    I'm interested, because it seems now we've gone too far the other way.

    How do EU immigrants to the UK destroy our culture here? Bearing in mind their are actually very few comparatively cultural differences between European or even Western states when it comes to the UK. If anything the UK/US anglosphere could be put forward as destroying bits of European culture- just look at the language issue. France is so worried they've actually protected their language so as to keep it alive in the future compared to the predominance of English.

    Many European cultures (and US again) share cultural things- legal systems, laws, equality, democracy, shared appreciation for their own national histories, clothes, hair styles, popular culture etc- there's very little difference realistically. So i can't see how immigrants would be changing UK culture? Perhaps you mean ethnic make-up? In which case again i'd point out that the UK we're already a mix of various peoples who came in and conquered us/settled here (as is all of Europe too), but also:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_England



    As you can see, the UK is in no danger of being 'over-run' and having our entire society changed... i'm Scottish so if anything i'm more wary of the English, huge numbers of southerners...who all somehow currently have a love from Tartan on their clothing, seems Scottish culture has influenced England
    Last edited by Dante Von Hespburg; November 11, 2014 at 04:10 AM.
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    Default Re: UK-Germany political tensions raise over immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Cleomenes III View Post
    UK needs to leave and hopefully Ireland and Greece will follow. There is no benefit in being a German vassal while immigrants destroy your native culture. Delenda est EU (Fourth Reich).
    Yes, what the Greek economy needs after years of depression, unemployment, etc., is to leave the EU. Besides, I'm still optimistic that the EU will eventually benefit the periphery as much as it benefits the Reich.

  14. #54
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: UK-Germany political tensions raise over immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Cleomenes III View Post
    UK needs to leave and hopefully Ireland and Greece will follow. There is no benefit in being a German vassal while immigrants destroy your native culture. Delenda est EU (Fourth Reich).
    I'm an American barbarian living in Belfast, Northern Ireland, and I can personally attest to the fact that I am destroying the native culture here with my presence. I do that simply by introducing my insidious Americanisms in speech, my American tastes in food, clothing, and music, and my completely incompatible American attitude about customer service. How dare I exist! I should go back home to where I came from...sooner than planned since I'm only here to get an MA and PhD, but still! The Northern Irish should just simply send me packing for the corrupting and corrosive influence I represent.

    And how dare I get a part-time job while going to school here? A part-time job, mind you, that is stolen from an unemployed Northern Irishman who should have got it first. I mean, I'm basically stealing food right out of his mouth, right?

  15. #55
    Kraut and Tea's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: UK-Germany political tensions raise over immigration

    On a sidenote why do English people always refer to us in such garstly stereotypes?

    Polish people, Russians, French people and even Israelis treat us just as ordenary people.

    But whenever I go to the UK I get treated as if I had personaly bombed London yesterday.

    Switch on your TV and watch some UK programms everything you will hear there when anyone refers to foreigners is:

    "Sleazy Italians", "Ruthless Germans", "Criminal Rumanians", "Poor Polish", "Disgusting Frenchmen", "Cruel Germans", "Lazy Italians", "Arrogant Frenchmen" and on and on.

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    Default Re: UK-Germany political tensions raise over immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by The Germans are coming View Post
    On a sidenote why do English people always refer to us in such garstly stereotypes?
    Who is "us"? Certainly not people from the commonwealth, even if it's dirt-poor Indians. And I think London is among the most islam-friendly communities.
    If it is the EU, then it would be very strange to not marginalize different cultures (Middle east, South Asia etc) and instead marginalize cultures similar to your own

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    I'm an American barbarian living in Belfast, Northern Ireland,
    American Barbarian... you're not in EU. Whether UK leaves EU or not, that doesn't affect your status.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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    Default Re: UK-Germany political tensions raise over immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Who is "us"? .
    I was refering to Germans. I had thought that this was pritty obvious from the post I wrote.

    I later mentioned how English people seem to refer in stereotypes to pritty much everyone.

    But the main question still remains why English people behave as if it were 1940 or 1870.

  18. #58
    Dante Von Hespburg's Avatar Sloth's Inferno
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    Default Re: UK-Germany political tensions raise over immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by The Germans are coming View Post
    On a sidenote why do English people always refer to us in such garstly stereotypes?

    Polish people, Russians, French people and even Israelis treat us just as ordenary people.

    But whenever I go to the UK I get treated as if I had personaly bombed London yesterday.

    Switch on your TV and watch some UK programms everything you will hear there when anyone refers to foreigners is:

    "Sleazy Italians", "Ruthless Germans", "Criminal Rumanians", "Poor Polish", "Disgusting Frenchmen", "Cruel Germans", "Lazy Italians", "Arrogant Frenchmen" and on and on.
    I have no idea what parts of the UK you've visited my friend, but typically there isn't any of that. Indeed Germany is one of the most highly regarded nations here- there's a large German 'Groupee' (For want of a better word!) movement here, especially in Secondary and Uni for us students who rather love the (probable stereotype!) of German style of living- mainly the very welcoming atmosphere, the fantastic night life, beautiful sites etc. German is one of the main languages (alongside French) taught in UK schools, and most foreign exchange programmes be it community orientated or School orientated are to some part of Germany. It also helps that learning to speak and understanding German is easier than say French perhaps because of the common roots of the two languages.

    So while i can't speak for the UK as a whole, in my experience its very much the reverse. Also i can't think of the BBC or any news broadcaster beyond the Daily Fail and Sun being so nationalist about such issues and stereotyping. Perhaps that's where your experience stems from?
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    Default Re: UK-Germany political tensions raise over immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante Von Hespburg View Post
    I have no idea what parts of the UK you've visited my friend, but typically there isn't any of that. Indeed Germany is one of the most highly regarded nations here- there's a large German 'Groupee' (For want of a better word!) movement here, especially in Secondary and Uni for us students who rather love the (probable stereotype!) of German style of living- mainly the very welcoming atmosphere, the fantastic night life, beautiful sites etc. German is one of the main languages (alongside French) taught in UK schools, and most foreign exchange programmes be it community orientated or School orientated are to some part of Germany. It also helps that learning to speak and understanding German is easier than say French perhaps because of the common roots of the two languages.

    So while i can't speak for the UK as a whole, in my experience its very much the reverse. Also i can't think of the BBC or any news broadcaster beyond the Daily Fail and Sun being so nationalist about such issues and stereotyping. Perhaps that's where your experience stems from?
    I think the guy whose country had a systemic "Greeks are lazy" campaign a few years ago is somewhat right, though. In common discourse, and even just looking at TWC, you see it's mostly British users who need to add a pronoun to most nationalities, or to modify it in some way. Argie Bargie, Yanks, etc.. I mean, I remember there were two groups on TWC which were around for a long time and had large membership and were calling Spaniards dagos and Argentinians the other dagos, and those names only changed after I reported it. It's not in the media, but it is on TV, like how the British always bring up the war when talking with Germans, even in comedic manner.

  20. #60
    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: UK-Germany political tensions raise over immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Who is "us"? Certainly not people from the commonwealth, even if it's dirt-poor Indians. And I think London is among the most islam-friendly communities.
    If it is the EU, then it would be very strange to not marginalize different cultures (Middle east, South Asia etc) and instead marginalize cultures similar to your own



    American Barbarian... you're not in EU. Whether UK leaves EU or not, that doesn't affect your status.
    Yeah thanks for Generalizing Indians


    You should say that to their neighbours.

    In 10 years time India will be way ahead.

    Then you say that stupid statement one more time.





















































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