Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: The Carthaginian Society

  1. #1

    Default The Carthaginian Society

    http://newsletter.kf.or.kr/english/c...nglish&no=1114

    Today, much of what people know about the ancient civilization of Carthage is based on Greek and Roman historical records. In addition, the artifacts of the ancient society of Carthage, including architectural remains, tombs, earthenware, and jewelry, also serve as valuable sources of information about the people and culture from this long ago time.

    Advanced Democracy of Carthage

    Carthage maintained a democratic political system that was based on elections. A Greek philosopher regarded the constitution of Carthage as being more advanced than that of the ancient Greek city-states because it attained a careful balance between the aristocrats, middle class, and common people of Carthaginian society. An administrative head was known as a suffet or judge. The constitution of Carthage outlined the governmental system that included a legislature, administration, and judiciary, which were established through an electoral process.

    The Carthaginians actively engaged in agricultural pursuits, with an emphasis on fruit-bearing trees, such as olive, fig, and pomegranate, along with grape vines and rice plants. It is widely recognized that Mago, a Carthaginian scholar, wrote encyclopedic texts on agriculture in the fourth century B.C. The Carthaginian people also promoted a variety of industries, including pottery, mining, and jewelry making. As confirmed by Carthaginian records, they took much pride in their craftsmanship and industrial skills. Merchants from Carthage had a talent for building robust trade relations thanks to their fleet of vessels that linked together the major civilizations of the Mediterranean region. The people of Carthage were skilled navigators with a bold sense of exploration. With this maritime capability, Admiral Hanno was able to sail across the Mediterranean to Gibraltar, from where he made his way along the African coast to Cameron, before returning home to Carthage. This voyage, in the fifth century B.C., was an effort to discover routes for gold. As for Admiral Himilco, after passing through the Strait of Gibraltar he headed northward and reached the British Isles, in the fifth century B.C., establishing the prowess of Carthage as a dominant naval power of ancient times.

    Civil and Open Society

    Carthaginian society was characterized by civility and openness. It was a vibrant society that enabled the coexistence of various classes related to economic standing, social status, and political influence. It was divided into three classes of regular citizens, foreigners, and slaves. Citizens enjoyed freedom and citizenship, along with maintaining property rights and having cultural knowledge.

    They contributed to the building of a sound society and state by fulfilling their political, administrative, and religious obligations. Those who accumulated wealth emerged as the forefront of society and played a key role in various sectors, including the economy, politics, religion, and culture. As a center of maritime routes in the Mediterranean region, Carthage enjoyed the economic benefits of region-wide trade and exchange. Craftsmen were part of the middle class who engaged in various commercial and business lines, including blacksmith, jewelry, accessories, and ceramics.

    There were communities of various foreign groups, including the Greeks, Egyptians, and Iberians, in Carthage and other large Phoenician cities. The foreigners included Greeks and Egyptians who engaged in commercial trade, but most were lowincome persons that had sought refuge in Carthage due to political suppression in their home country.

    The openness of Carthage society allowed the inclusion of various social classes, including people from foreign countries.

    Slavery and Women's Rights

    In ancient times, slavery was a common aspect of everyday society. In Carthage, however, slaves were treated as human beings who were granted basic rights. They had a right to visit a temple for worship, and to marry and accumulate savings to buy their freedom. The process of liberating slaves was governed by legal procedures.

    Although not allowed to participate directly in the political process, women could engage in religious and economic endeavors. There are records about women who became priests and also leaders of religious councils. The courage of Carthaginian women during the wars against the Romans has been highly lauded in historical documents. Women would cut their hair so that it could be woven into ropes that troops on land and at sea used for the defense of their country. Moreover, the city of Carthage was actually founded by a woman called Elisa, or Dido. Today, the fact that women in Tunisia enjoy the same rights as men seems to be somewhat rooted in this ancient development.

    Spread of Influence

    The Carthaginians gathered regularly to worship their gods. They believed in Baal Hammon and his wife Tanit. People would make their way to the Tophet, a sanctuary dedicated to their two gods, to offer money and tribute. According to custom, children who died young would be cremated and buried at the Tophet. According to their belief in Baal, families who experienced the loss of children would be rewarded by the gods.

    Carthaginian society, played an important role in spreading its civilization to various Mediterranean states, including Sardinia, Sicily, and Spain. It also contributed to the spread of its alphabet to the Western areas of the Mediterranean. The Phoenicians introduced their alphabet and writing system to Greek cities, which remain in use in various countries in the Arab world and Europe. All of the writing systems in these countries originated from the Phoenician alphabet. Carthage was a center of learning of this alphabet, which facilitated the promotion of scholarship and knowledge in various countries throughout the Mediterranean. Moreover, the Phoenician alphabet serves as the foundation for knowledge and democracy.

    Previously, writing was a privilege accorded only to the elite of society, like aristocrats and high priests.

    At the time of the pharaohs, it was not possible for the common people to learn Egyptian reading and writing. However, the Phoenicians created an alphabet that contained 22 characters, so that everyone, regardless of social or economic status, could learn to read and write. This writing system thus contributed to the dissemination of democracy as well as literature and philosophy.

    Last edited by Conrad82; November 01, 2014 at 07:51 PM.

  2. #2
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    15,242

    Default Re: The Carthaginian Society

    Let me sum up the responses that this thread is most likely to get:

    Carthage, BAD!

    Rome, GOOD!

    /thread.

    Or, in the (parodied) words of James Hetfield from Metallica:




    Carthage was indeed a remarkable civilization and seafaring power, but just like Rome it had its darker side. With recent findings made by archaeologists, it appears that the effective Roman propaganda about the Carthaginians killing babies for ritual sacrifice to their gods perhaps wasn't a partisan fable after all. Also, both Rome and Carthage crucified people, so their brutal and barbaric forms of capital punishment were rather similar.

  3. #3

    Default Re: The Carthaginian Society

    This would be better if the points were backed up by evidence. This Fantar character seems to be a bit of a romantic Tunisian nationalist.

    For example:

    All of the writing systems in these countries originated from the Phoenician alphabet. Carthage was a center of learning of this alphabet, which facilitated the promotion of scholarship and knowledge in various countries throughout the Mediterranean.
    What is this claim base on? The alphabet was already in widespread use before Carthage was particularly relevant.

    And...

    At the time of the pharaohs, it was not possible for the common people to learn Egyptian reading and writing. However, the Phoenicians created an alphabet that contained 22 characters, so that everyone, regardless of social or economic status, could learn to read and write.
    Well sort of, I guess. It's not like everyone in the ancient world learned how to read and write, nor was that likely their intention. Anyway, the Ugaritic alphabet predates the Phoenician alphabet in the Levant and it only had 30 characters.
    Last edited by sumskilz; November 03, 2014 at 10:21 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  4. #4

    Default Re: The Carthaginian Society

    It is said that Carthage was ONE center of learning of this alphablet. Not the first, and not the only one.

    On the question of child sacrifice, this is what I read on Wikipedia:

    Child sacrifice question[edit]Carthage under the Phoenicians was accused by its adversaries of child sacrifice. Plutarch (20:14,4–6) alleges the practice,[149] as do Tertullian (Apolog.9:2–3),[150] Orosius, Philo and Diodorus Siculus.[151] However, Herodotos and Polybius do not. Skeptics contend that if Carthage's critics were aware of such a practice, however limited, they would have been horrified by it and exaggerated its extent due to their polemical treatment of the Carthaginians.[152] The Hebrew Bible also mentions child sacrifice practiced by the Canaanites, ancestors of the Carthaginians. The Greek and Roman critics, according to Charles Picard, objected not to the killing of children but to the religious nature of it. As in both ancient Greece and Rome, inconvenient children were commonly killed by exposure to the elements

    Modern archaeology in formerly Punic areas has discovered a number of large cemeteries for children and infants, representing a civic and religious institution for worship and sacrifice called the Tophet by archaeologists. These cemeteries may have been used as graves for stillborn infants or children who died very early.[154] Modern archeological excavations have been interpreted by some archeologists[155] as confirming Plutarch's reports of Carthaginian child sacrifice.[156] An estimated 20,000 urns were deposited between 400 BC and 200 BC,[157] in the tophet discovered in the Salammbô neighbourhood of present-day Carthage with the practice continuing until the early years of the Christian period. The urns contained the charred bones of newborns and in some cases the bones of fetuses and two-year-olds. There is a clear correlation between the frequency of cremation and the well-being of the city. In bad times (war, poor harvests) cremations became more frequent, but it is not known why. One explanation for this correlation is the claim that the Carthaginians prayed for divine intervention (via child sacrifice); however, bad times would naturally lead to increased child mortality, and consequently, more child burials (via cremation).

    Accounts of child sacrifice in Carthage report that beginning at the founding of Carthage in about 814 BC, mothers and fathers buried their children who had been sacrificed to Ba`al Hammon and Tanit in the tophet.[158] The practice was apparently distasteful even to Carthaginians, and they began to buy children for the purpose of sacrifice or even to raise servant children instead of offering up their own. However, Carthage's priests demanded the youth in times of crisis or calamity like war, drought or famine. Special ceremonies during extreme crisis saw up to 200 children of the most affluent and powerful families slain and tossed into the burning pyre.[159]

    Skeptics maintain that the bodies of children found in Carthaginian and Phoenician cemeteries were merely the cremated remains of children who died naturally. Sergio Ribichini has argued that the tophet was "a child necropolis designed to receive the remains of infants who had died prematurely of sickness or other natural causes, and who for this reason were "offered" to specific deities and buried in a place different from the one reserved for the ordinary dead".[160] The few Carthaginian texts which have survived make absolutely no mention of child sacrifice, though most of them pertain to matters entirely unrelated to religion, such as the practice of agricultura.
    Gess we will never know for sure...
    Last edited by Conrad82; November 23, 2014 at 08:27 AM.

  5. #5
    Edelfred's Avatar Semisalis
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Baltic sea
    Posts
    484

    Default Re: The Carthaginian Society

    Phoenicians had also some Libyan connection though I doubt that half-bloods had the same rights as city founders .

    The sacrifices were exported from the Middle East . Some of them trough the Semitic settlers in Spain made it up as far as British Isles the Celtic-Iberian tradition sacrificed men in Wicker man . The same ritual described during the siege of Carthage the priests decided whose kids shall be thrown into huge burning effigy to please Gods and to save the city . Romans have understood the similarity and destroyed the British druids as you all obviously know .
    Carthage has also similar tradition to one known in the ancient Middle East - self-castration to please Tanit and became her priest .


    About alphabet - no : Semitic people has taken alphabet from Summerians who were not Semitic .
    Last edited by Edelfred; November 25, 2014 at 01:46 AM.
    Har du inte levt mitt liv
    Vet du ingenting
    Laglöst Land

  6. #6

    Default Re: The Carthaginian Society

    Quote Originally Posted by Conrad82 View Post
    It is said that Carthage was ONE center of learning of this alphablet.
    Okay maybe, but what is he basing that on? That's what my skepticism is about, because every time I've encountered anything that guy wrote it was all about how great the Carthaginians were and how everything bad said about them was just slander.


    Quote Originally Posted by Edelfred View Post
    About alphabet - no : Semitic people has taken alphabet from Summerians who were not Semitic .
    Sumerian cuneiform was actually not an alphabetic writing system. The Phoenician alphabet was an innovation, although it may have been inspired by the Ugaritic alphabet. The word alphabet come from the first to letters of the Phoenician alphabet - alif and beit, which means "ox" and "house".
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  7. #7
    Edelfred's Avatar Semisalis
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Baltic sea
    Posts
    484

    Default Re: The Carthaginian Society

    Ugaritic alphabet is of questionable originality due to Indo-Aryan substrate in Hurrian .
    Because Indo-Aryans have been the ruling class in Mitanni and as such the science has been their prerogative I would not be surprised them developing writing for subjects

    It is eventually great question due to fact that science has noted few similarities of earlier known Brahmi and Semtic letters ,but Indo-Aryans are associated with India ,which in reality they conquered not with their real homeland Southern part of Kazakhstan (Jas ) and Northern part of Iran (Aryana) . Kingdom of Mitanni means Indo-Aryans can not be only tied to modern India , but of quite different and opposite perspective .
    In short not only numbers ,but perhaps letters too were developed by Indo-Aryans
    Last edited by Edelfred; November 26, 2014 at 03:33 PM.
    Har du inte levt mitt liv
    Vet du ingenting
    Laglöst Land

  8. #8
    neoptolemos's Avatar Breatannach Romanus
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Seirios,a parallel space,at your right
    Posts
    10,727

    Default Re: The Carthaginian Society

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    The word alphabet come from the first to letters of the Phoenician alphabet - alif and beit, which means "ox" and "house".
    Actually the word alphabet comes from the Greek "alphabetos" which consists for the two first letters of the Greek alphabet which in their turn are adaptations of alif-the Alpha and beit=the Beta
    Quem faz injúria vil e sem razão,Com forças e poder em que está posto,Não vence; que a vitória verdadeira É saber ter justiça nua e inteira-He who, solely to oppress,Employs or martial force, or power, achieves No victory; but a true victory Is gained,when justice triumphs and prevails.
    Luís de Camões

  9. #9

    Default Re: The Carthaginian Society

    Quote Originally Posted by Edelfred View Post
    Ugaritic alphabet is of questionable originality due to Indo-Aryan substrate in Hurrian .
    Because Indo-Aryans have been the ruling class in Mitanni and as such the science has been their prerogative I would not be surprised them developing writing for subjects

    It is eventually great question due to fact that science has noted few similarities of earlier known Brahmi and Semtic letters ,but Indo-Aryans are associated with India ,which in reality they conquered not with their real homeland Southern part of Kazakhstan (Jas ) and Northern part of Iran (Aryana) . Kingdom of Mitanni means Indo-Aryans can not be only tied to modern India , but of quite different and opposite perspective .
    In short not only numbers ,but perhaps letters too were developed by Indo-Aryans
    I doubt that. Ugaritic is a West Semitic language and their alphabet matches the West Semitic phonology perfectly - no awkward adaptations. The Persians did seem to develop their own cuneiform-like semi-alphabetic script though, but it was much later. Then they adapted the Aramaic one. The Brahmi script doesn't appear until a thousand years after the Ugaritic one, and it really does appear to also be an adaptation of the Aramaic alphabet.

    Quote Originally Posted by neoptolemos View Post
    Actually the word alphabet comes from the Greek "alphabetos" which consists for the two first letters of the Greek alphabet which in their turn are adaptations of alif-the Alpha and beit=the Beta
    Okay, fair enough. The Semitic term is alifbeit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •