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Thread: Mongol total war (idea please read)

  1. #1

    Default Mongol total war (idea please read)

    This seems like a good pick after Attila, which will act as a stepping stone for improved cavalry mechanics.

    The game would be set in approx 1100-1300 AD with either 4 turns or 2 per year. Obviously, this time period is interesting as it saw masses of Mongol invasions all over Asia including China, Japan and Vietnam etc. The map should cover from Iran in the west to Japan to the east, providing a large amount of unit and cultural variety.

    Each faction should have different attributes.

    For example.

    China will have 300 unit spear men (huge unit size) but with low morale and fighting ability (historically, this was the case as many Song Chinese were farmers drafted into war).

    Mongol units will be relatively low in number (80 horse archers on max unit size) but their quality would be much better.

    Japan (Kamakura) should have medium to high fighting ability but also have better morale than other factions due to Bushido.

    Persia/indians should have elephants

    etc

    Supply lines should also be made into this game. Make it so armies will carry a certain amount of supplies (you can choose how much). If an army is cut off supply, they will quickly deteriorate. Of course, armies will have an option to feed off the land but the opponent could raise everything usable to the ground (much like what Russians did to Napoleon.)

    Terrain and weather should also be a factor. For example, Mongol units should suffer heavy attrition if they invade Vietnam, which is full of jungles, an environment the Mongols wouldn't be used to nor able to perform cavalry tactics very well. Native units should fare better when on their home turf, which brings me to the next point;

    Unit recruitment based on location.

    This will mean that for example, if the Mongols manage to conquer China, they shouldn't be able to train Mongol horse archers in Chinese territory, due to obviously not having access to them or at the very least not have them as good as Mongol horsemen trained in Mongolia. This could be changed by population navigation mechanics. What the Mongols could recruit in China could be masses of ground spearmen (but in Mongol uniform). Overall, my point is that factions shouldn't be able to recruit their own culture units in lands populated by other ethnics.

    Factions off the top of my head.

    Mongol empire
    Song Dynasty (China)
    Kamakura Shogunate (Japan)
    Korea
    Vietnam
    Persia (Iran)
    India
    East Europe (maybe)

    Obviously they all have different cultures and religions like Islam, Shinto, Confucianism, Christianity etc

    And a few more that I can't remember ATM.

    Also, unit experience should be completely reworked. For example, if a unit killed many enemies without taking much casualties, they would get an attack bonus. If that unit takes alot of casualties for instance, they would get a defense point. If a unit routs/or at least wavers, then they would get a morale bonus. Each of these = 1 exp point. Once they get enough exp points, they will advance in chevrons, which basically improves every aspect of that unit (attack, defense, attack speed, morale etc).

    First Chevron = 3 exp points needed
    Second Chevron = 6 Exp points needed
    Third = 9 exp points needed
    Fourth = 12 exp points needed

    Up until 9 Chevrons. Obviously, retraining units would decrease the amount of experience if said unit takes alot of casualties.

    What also should change is that buildings/tech that provide experience bonuses should be completely wiped out. Unit experience should only be gained in battle. This was my major gripe with Shogun 2, where experience essentially didn't matter as by late game you could keep pumping out 6 chevron units.

    Finally, the warscape 1v1 engine needs to go in order for CA to make any type of pre gunpowder game. I also hope they make battles a lot more longer.

    Overall, how you think of these ideas so far?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Mongol total war (idea please read)

    Moved fom Rome II General Discussion to General TW Discussion and Resources.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Mongol total war (idea please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by Maximinus Thrax View Post
    Moved fom Rome II General Discussion to General TW Discussion and Resources.
    ty

    I'm new and sorry btw

  4. #4

    Default Re: Mongol total war (idea please read)

    China Total War: Warring States Period!
    Mongol Total War should be its expansion...

  5. #5

    Default Re: Mongol total war (idea please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by jamreal18 View Post
    China Total War: Warring States Period!
    Mongol Total War should be its expansion...
    No, Its far too big to just be an expansion. If it were just about the Mongol invasion of China then it would make sense.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Mongol total war (idea please read)

    Quoting my post from the other thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yayattasa View Post
    "Mongol" total war sounds bad because it makes you think it would be centered around Temudjin and what he achieved during his lifetime. It shouldn't be like that.

    A perfect Total War for that era would start at least around 1131 (or 1120 to include some major rebellions within the Empire, but then you would have to include the Liao Empire, which would crumble around 1125).
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    If starting in 1131, the following factions could be included:

    • Hala-Qidan (Xi Liao, Kara-Khitai)
    • Qocho (Kara-Khoja) (starts as vassals to the Hala-Qidan)
    • Khwarazmshahiyan (the turkic Khwarazmian Empire, vassal to the Seljuks, which would probably stay off-map)
    • Kypchak confederacy (off-map, they are also divided into several turkic tribes)
    • Büyük Selçuklu (Seljuk Empire, probably off-map because it's really westward)
    • Sung Chao (the Southern Song Dynasty, fights against all the northern neighbors, rebellions and a political crisis between pacifict and militaristic parties)
    • Anchun Gurun (Jin Chao, Da Jin, the jurchen Jin Dynasty, which is on the brink of conquering the whole northern China)
    • Da Qi (a puppet State in chinese soil set by the Jin Dynasty)
    • Xia (Xi Xia, the tangut empire, fighting off all it's neighbors and the initial droves of Xianbei uniting with the mongols).
    • Goryeo (the Korean empire, it's fighting against the jurchen at the northern border and a power struggle)
    • Menggu Khanlig (the mongolian, which can be unified as any of the initial mongolic/turkic confederations bellow):
      • Khamag
      • Naiman
      • Kereyid
      • Kirghiz
      • Oirat
      • Buryat
      • Merkid
      • Tatar

    • Tubo (the tibetan empire, can be formed by any of the following monastic schools):
      • Drikung Kagyu
      • Sakyapa
      • Karma Kagyu
      • Kadampa
      • Drukpa Kagyu
      • Phagmo Kagyu
      • Samye Gompa
      • Lhasa

    • Da Li (Kingdom of Dali, of the Bo/Bai peoples)
    • Dai Viet (Ly, then Tran Dynasties)
    • Hei-Shi (Taira, probably off-map)
    • Minamoto-Shi (Minamoto, probably off-map)
    • Khmer Empire (off-map)
    • Dvaravati (off-map)
    • Haripunjaya (off-map)
    • Champa (off-map)
    • Pagan (off-map)


    Religions would include:
    • Tibetan (Vajrayana) Buddhism
    • Mahayana Buddhism
    • Theravada Buddhism
    • Bön shamanism
    • Tengriism
    • Neo-confucianism
    • Taoism
    • Shintoism
    • Shia Islam
    • Sunni Islam
    • Manichaeim
    • Nestorian Christianity


    Of course, including it all with all sub-factions could be too much to a single campaign, so DLCs/expansions should take care of the unification of the mongols or famous people of the time, like Yue Fei (a general who fought against several rebellions in chinese soil and dedicated his life to retake the northern provinces, dieing betrayed by government officials), Song Jian and Fang La (rebel leaders fighting against corrupt officials, made famous thanks to the fiction history told in the book Water Margin/Shui Hu Zhuan), etc.

    I included info from the mod All Under Heaven and site chinaknowledge.de, if you are interested in the topic, please ask and check their researches.

    Here's some cool pages to read:
    At chinaknowledge.de:
    Chinese History - Political History of the Song Dynasty 宋 (960-1279)
    At AUH subforum:
    Preview Scroll Four: Tibetan Kingdoms
    Preview Scroll Three: The Song Dynasty
    So, there's a way I can see this Total War come to life: Medieval III: Total War about 12th-13th century warfare in Europe and the Middle East, with an expansion pack about Central Asia and East Asia during the rise of the Mongol confederacy. Another cool region in the same Era is the Indian subcontinent.


  7. #7
    Ciciro's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Mongol total war (idea please read)

    No thank you. I would much rather have Warring States TW than Mongol TW.

  8. #8
    LestaT's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Mongol total war (idea please read)

    Warring States got my vote. This, no.
    Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth. - Marcus Aurelius


  9. #9
    Ultra123's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Mongol total war (idea please read)

    Warring states with this as a expansion (mongol forays into china like attila - think medieval 2 timurids and mongols) like another poster said, would get my vote.
    Last edited by Ultra123; December 19, 2014 at 05:52 AM.
    Originally Posted by Garbarsardar
    R2 is a deeply flawed, partially completed, hastily assembled, sub-par product.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Mongol total war (idea please read)

    I like the factions, mostly. But I'd prefer something encompassing all of Asia and the Middle East.. The China idea is also very good.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Mongol total war (idea please read)

    Warring States do not fit the Total War game play. The most important things in that time were diplomacy, political reform, and logistics. This is a bit better.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by Ngazi; March 09, 2015 at 08:53 AM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Mongol total war (idea please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngazi View Post
    Warring States do not fit the Total War game play.
    they don't. The Art of War is the very foundation of the total war series.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngazi View Post
    The most important things in that time were diplomacy, political reform, and logistics.
    Uh no, there were plenty of battles in this period, and how is everything you said not apply to other periods?
    Attila total war seems to be praised for all the things you have said to discredit the warring states as a suitable game for total war, I do not see how on god's green earth it could not work as a game in the series.

  13. #13
    PikeStance's Avatar Greater of Two Evils
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    Default Re: Mongol total war (idea please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngazi View Post
    Warring States do not fit the Total War game play. The most important things in that time were diplomacy, political reform, and logistics. This is a bit better.
    Concerning China; There are many periods suggested among them is the Warring State period and the "Rise of the Three Kingdom" period. Both of them are probably the best two suggested time period. The one you suggested was also suggested. I do not understand your objection to the Warring state period at all though.

    I would like a different mechanism at play. The game should have multiple phases to the game- play. Phase 1) You start has a faction and must unite and claim the Mandate. Phase 2) You must manage your empire. Revolts could occur with periodic "nomadic peoples" problems. An expansion option. Phase 3) The revolts and / or invasions are successful and you must fight to keep the mandate. The longer it last, the less right you have in maintaining it. A dynamic of play is controlling the huge bureaucracy both within the palace and in the provinces.

    Since it will cover the totality of Chinese history, I think this would resolve the issue of "when" the game should take place. DLC's could be created to start the game with different situations present in Chinese History.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Mongol total war (idea please read)

    So you are saying it would be completely different from any Total War game.

  15. #15
    Ciciro's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Mongol total war (idea please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngazi View Post
    Warring States do not fit the Total War game play. The most important things in that time were diplomacy, political reform, and logistics. This is a bit better.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    No, it isn't. Who wants to play a China game when China is already half-way united?

  16. #16

    Default Re: Mongol total war (idea please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngazi View Post
    So you are saying it would be completely different from any Total War game.
    No, that is what YOUR saying. Having a few differences would not make it so different then the other total war games. How about you point out the differences that would not make it fit for a total war game because you have not properly shown any examples.

  17. #17
    PikeStance's Avatar Greater of Two Evils
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    Default Re: Mongol total war (idea please read)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngazi View Post
    So you are saying it would be completely different from any Total War game.
    No, more of an expansion of what previous titles have already done.
    Phase I: Building an empire (Rome II | Medieval II | Empire)
    Phase II: Maintaining an Empire & Phase III: External and Internal problems (Rome II | Empire | Attila)
    The bureaucracy issue/ appointing of regional governors or over lordships are aspects already in Rome II and Attila; I am only expanding the idea.
    If we want a really different dynamic have it so that eventually, your dynasty WILL fall. Plus, at the end, you can then choose a new faction competing. If you are familiar with Chinese history, most dynasties fell as a result of a prolonged period decentralization. This would be not much different than choosing to be the rebels in Empire. Still not a NEW IDEA, but an expansion on what has already been done.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Mongol total war (idea please read)

    Disruptive comment removed
    Last edited by TheDarkKnight; March 12, 2015 at 03:44 PM.

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