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Thread: Good thing saint Snowden fled to Russia becuse they are so lilly white.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Good thing saint Snowden fled to Russia becuse they are so lilly white.

    So hypocrite much?

    http://www.wired.com/2014/10/russian...m-hack-isight/

    But hey screw over your co workers and your country and go live with Putin and the left in the US still loves you...

    There is a reasonable debate I think about if the NSA overstepped its bounds in the US and if the FISA court is too sheltered/insular to be an effective check. But I am still perplexed any any surprise about the activity of the NSA in world - which is more or less doing its job.
    Last edited by conon394; October 14, 2014 at 05:51 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Garbarsardar's Avatar Et Slot i et slot
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    Default Re: Good thing saint Snowden fled to Russia becuse they are so lilly white.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    So hypocrite much?

    http://www.wired.com/2014/10/russian...m-hack-isight/

    But hey screw over your co workers and your country and go live with Putin and the left in the US still loves you...

    There is a reasonable debate I think about if the NSA overstepped its bounds in the US and if the FISA court is too sheltered/insular to be an effective check. But I am still perplexed any any surprise about the activity of the NSA in world - which is more or less doing its job.
    For me the problem always was not the accumulation of data (which presents an actual problem for the NSA-how on earth are they going to analyze the lot?) but the implications of such accumulation for the pace and depth of interpretation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser Joseph von Habsburg View Post
    He wasn't arrested and then declared he was "a woman in the body of a man" or something? What does he expect from Russia? And how the hell did he flee prison?
    That was an entirely different person: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning

  3. #3

    Default Re: Good thing saint Snowden fled to Russia becuse they are so lilly white.

    You can't betray your country by revealing crimes against it's own citizens. That makes 0 sense.

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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Good thing saint Snowden fled to Russia becuse they are so lilly white.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    So hypocrite much?

    http://www.wired.com/2014/10/russian...m-hack-isight/

    But hey screw over your co workers and your country and go live with Putin and the left in the US still loves you...

    There is a reasonable debate I think about if the NSA overstepped its bounds in the US and if the FISA court is too sheltered/insular to be an effective check. But I am still perplexed any any surprise about the activity of the NSA in world - which is more or less doing its job.
    What does this have to do with Edward Snowden...at all? He's not even mentioned once in your article. This whole thread has a very misleading title, which should be about the Russian cyber-espionage campaign called "Sandworm" as cited in the article.

    Could someone please rename this thread? Or, at the very least, Conon, you should either share a different article, this time about Edward Snowden, or start a proper thread about Sandworm.

    If it wasn't for Snowden, none of us would know a thing about PRISM or the violation of our civil liberties by the NSA. He is single-handedly responsible for bringing this to the attention of the public and the media. Yet somehow you've managed to convince yourself that Edward Snowden's mission was to topple the NSA or something, whereas Snowden himself argues he's their best friend doing them a service, they're just the only ones who can't recognize that. If you think Snowden is not a whistleblower but a traitor who leaked vital intel in an action that violated his work oath, that would be fine so long as you believe in universal application of the law. That means James R. Clapper, Director of National Intelligence, should also get locked up for committing an act of perjury before Congress.

    That's all I'll say about Snowden. As for Sandworm, if that's what this thread is actually about, it is a good thing we have experts in countering cyber attacks working for agencies like the NSA. Who would argue otherwise? Aside from enemies of the US, of course. I say that mildly, of course, since Russia, which has become increasingly autocratic under Putin, is nonetheless hardly a real enemy when standing in comparison to groups like ISIL, which is literally out for American blood. The worst the Russians and the US are doing to each other are sharing tit-for-tat sanctions to frustrate financial security and diplomatic relations.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Good thing saint Snowden fled to Russia becuse they are so lilly white.

    It's rather appalling how Americans are mad at Snowden and not their government for the NSA thing, but ok...

  6. #6

    Default Re: Good thing saint Snowden fled to Russia becuse they are so lilly white.

    While I don't like Snowden, the day we compare ourselves to Russia is the day we lost.

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    Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Good thing saint Snowden fled to Russia becuse they are so lilly white.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    So hypocrite much?

    http://www.wired.com/2014/10/russian...m-hack-isight/

    But hey screw over your co workers and your country and go live with Putin and the left in the US still loves you...

    There is a reasonable debate I think about if the NSA overstepped its bounds in the US and if the FISA court is too sheltered/insular to be an effective check. But I am still perplexed any any surprise about the activity of the NSA in world - which is more or less doing its job.
    What does this have to do with Snowden? The only reason Snowden fled to Russia was because it was unlikely they would extradite him to the US, not because he admired Russian civil liberties.

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    Default Re: Good thing saint Snowden fled to Russia becuse they are so lilly white.

    It's not like Snowden helped Russia, if anything he was a thorn in their side.
    "It's bizarre though. Donald Trump, an ageing, orange skinned reality TV star with a history of selling steaks and conning people, a trophy wife and one of the most fragile egos I've seen pretty much just destroyed the head of the interventionist faction in the US State apparatus, Victoria Nuland, after literally becoming President of the United states. We must live in one of the more interesting timelines."

    "The Powell Doctrine is the bible of every foreign policy thinker."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powell_Doctrine

  9. #9
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Good thing saint Snowden fled to Russia becuse they are so lilly white.

    If it wasn't for Snowden, none of us would know a thing about PRISM or the violation of our civil liberties by the NSA. He is single-handedly responsible for bringing this to the attention of the public and the media. Yet somehow you've managed to convince yourself that Edward Snowden's mission was to topple the NSA or something, whereas Snowden himself argues he's their best friend doing them a service, they're just the only ones who can't recognize that. If you think Snowden is not a whistleblower but a traitor who leaked vital intel in an action that violated his work oath, that would be fine so long as you believe in universal application of the law. That means James R. Clapper, Director of National Intelligence, should also get locked up for committing an act of perjury before Congress.
    If he done just that exposed just that the NSA might have crossed the line into domestic espionage. If he had been willing to face the consequences of his actions and if he had not lied to harm others while he fled from his actions I would commend him. But by cynically fleeing to Russia and by also exposing external intelligence operations that are more less par for the course for everyone who can afford them I find his canonization by the left (where I place myself) rather annoying.

    Second as I noted before I not really sure I see the NSA did anything outside the law. Perhaps the FISA court is too weak. Perhaps the NSA was pushing or broke the letter of the law. That however has been reasonably well known for a long time as have the rather broad grey aspects of the post 9/11 acts and decisions that allowed it. But really? Oh no the NSA knows who some phones I might have called big deal Google and Amazon know everything I buy and do on line as well and my service provider also. So I feel so much better that Century Link and it need for quarterly profit will hold my meta data vs the NSA. Where is this Fantasy world of privacy. Quick how many CCT cameras can you count in your walk across town. Call me jaded but I really don't care all that much. But more importantly I was just adding a new story that essentially pointed out Snowden for his sainthood is living in a country that does everything the NSA does abroad and more at home with no discussion or debate.

    That's all I'll say about Snowden. As for Sandworm, if that's what this thread is actually about, it is a good thing we have experts in countering cyber attacks working for agencies like the NSA. Who would argue otherwise? Aside from enemies of the US, of course. I say that mildly, of course, since Russia, which has become increasingly autocratic under Putin, is nonetheless hardly a real enemy when standing in comparison to groups like ISIL, which is literally out for American blood. The worst the Russians and the US are doing to each other are sharing tit-for-tat sanctions to frustrate financial security and diplomatic relations.
    Are we? Snowden is just riding his PR to live in Russia not any transfer of data at all to Russia or China for his plesent little travel plan?

    In any case I think the thread is apt - outside of the grey area of US internal monitoring Snowden has no credibility. I was simply updating the fact that everyone has spies and I sure Germany will be outraged by except for bits were they spy as well. In this case I was simply point to the fact Russia certainly has nothing under Putin to compare with the (perhaps weak) FISA court and it does the very same thing the NSA does abroad. So I just can't help but see the irony. Unlike Manning or Ellsberg he eluded the cost of being a (supposed) whistle blower more important to me as an IT person he violated the trust of people he worked with to do it without seemly to give any though or care to the cost they would face.

    ---------------

    What does this have to do with Snowden? The only reason Snowden fled to Russia was because it was unlikely they would extradite him to the US, not because he admired Russian civil liberties.
    Because he is a coward and his residence country is no better than the US - worse of domestic espionage - he lacks the courage of his proposed convictions.
    Last edited by conon394; October 15, 2014 at 05:07 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Good thing saint Snowden fled to Russia becuse they are so lilly white.

    He was a wistleblower and exposed what the government was doing to its own citizens. The fact that he fled was because the American goverment was likely to imprison him. Any sane person would do the same. Only crazy people stand up to an angry government looking for a scapegoat.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Good thing saint Snowden fled to Russia becuse they are so lilly white.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    So hypocrite much?

    http://www.wired.com/2014/10/russian...m-hack-isight/

    But hey screw over your co workers and your country and go live with Putin and the left in the US still loves you...

    There is a reasonable debate I think about if the NSA overstepped its bounds in the US and if the FISA court is too sheltered/insular to be an effective check. But I am still perplexed any any surprise about the activity of the NSA in world - which is more or less doing its job.

    Then bolt an always on webcam to your forehead, if you are happy with the lelve of intrusion the NSA was performing you would be happy with that. I look forward to the link.

  12. #12
    Garbarsardar's Avatar Et Slot i et slot
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    Default Re: Good thing saint Snowden fled to Russia becuse they are so lilly white.

    "Whistleblower flees from bad country to country which is not much better, according to reports."

    That is "The Onion" material...

  13. #13
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Good thing saint Snowden fled to Russia becuse they are so lilly white.

    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    Then bolt an always on webcam to your forehead, if you are happy with the lelve of intrusion the NSA was performing you would be happy with that. I look forward to the link.
    Don't need to bother Google, Amazon and CCTV does that for me already...

    ------------

    He was a wistleblower and exposed what the government was doing to its own citizens
    Doing what exactly - data mining.

    Which is more or less what they were asked to after 9/11 when it was clear the government could not put together links to stop a well planned consperiacy which did exist. In any case that still fails to enplane the need to release information about foreign intell operations which certainly cannot be whistle blowing.
    Last edited by conon394; October 15, 2014 at 07:41 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Good thing saint Snowden fled to Russia becuse they are so lilly white.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Don't need to bother Google, Amazon and CCTV does that for me already...

    ------------



    Doing what exactly - data mining.

    Which is more or less what they were asked to after 9/11 when it was clear the government could not put together links to stop a well planned consperiacy which did exist. In any case that still fails to enplane the need to release information about foreign intell operations which certainly cannot be whistle blowing.
    some of the foreign intel releases where chowing law breaking by agencies in those nations (for instance GCHQ using the NSA to get round UK law.)

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    Default Re: Good thing saint Snowden fled to Russia becuse they are so lilly white.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    But I am still perplexed any any surprise about the activity of the NSA in world - which is more or less doing its job.
    That's the mentality of Snowden haters in general - they believe their government is right in doing all those dirty, secret missions because it only has good intentions.


    It is not. You are the boss of your government. You're not a kid needing protection from truth and the government is not your parent. You employ it out of necessity, and most of its top elective members are the most unscrupulous s that's how they earned their positions. It is your government which needs to be constantly monitored for possible wrongdoing, not you.

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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Good thing saint Snowden fled to Russia becuse they are so lilly white.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    If he done just that exposed just that the NSA might have crossed the line into domestic espionage. If he had been willing to face the consequences of his actions and if he had not lied to harm others while he fled from his actions I would commend him. But by cynically fleeing to Russia and by also exposing external intelligence operations that are more less par for the course for everyone who can afford them I find his canonization by the left (where I place myself) rather annoying.

    Second as I noted before I not really sure I see the NSA did anything outside the law. Perhaps the FISA court is too weak. Perhaps the NSA was pushing or broke the letter of the law. That however has been reasonably well known for a long time as have the rather broad grey aspects of the post 9/11 acts and decisions that allowed it. But really? Oh no the NSA knows who some phones I might have called big deal Google and Amazon know everything I buy and do on line as well and my service provider also. So I feel so much better that Century Link and it need for quarterly profit will hold my meta data vs the NSA. Where is this Fantasy world of privacy. Quick how many CCT cameras can you count in your walk across town. Call me jaded but I really don't care all that much. But more importantly I was just adding a new story that essentially pointed out Snowden for his sainthood is living in a country that does everything the NSA does abroad and more at home with no discussion or debate.



    Are we? Snowden is just riding his PR to live in Russia not any transfer of data at all to Russia or China for his plesent little travel plan?

    In any case I think the thread is apt - outside of the grey area of US internal monitoring Snowden has no credibility. I was simply updating the fact that everyone has spies and I sure Germany will be outraged by except for bits were they spy as well. In this case I was simply point to the fact Russia certainly has nothing under Putin to compare with the (perhaps weak) FISA court and it does the very same thing the NSA does abroad. So I just can't help but see the irony. Unlike Manning or Ellsberg he eluded the cost of being a (supposed) whistle blower more important to me as an IT person he violated the trust of people he worked with to do it without seemly to give any though or care to the cost they would face.

    ---------------



    Because he is a coward and his residence country is no better than the US - worse of domestic espionage - he lacks the courage of his proposed convictions.
    Okay, one glaring mistake in this post you keep repeating over and over: that Russia was Snowden's intended final destination. False. Russia was merely a transit point for him to escape to Ecuador in Latin America. Russia was a logical transit point for this move, seeing how, like China, they don't really respect US extradition laws, especially for a high profile case like this. The only reason Snowden became moored in Russia is because the United States government REVOKED his passport when he was traveling from Hong Kong to Moscow. So quit playing this tired line of "Snowden and Putin are best pals!" The second Snowden would try to move outside of Russia, at least legally, he would be immediately snatched by US authorities or others for extradition back to the US. If anything, Putin is glad to keep a lid on him and parade his presence for PR purposes.

    Also, there is no concrete evidence that you have that Snowden is sharing intel with either Russia or China, because it does not exist. If that was his aim all along, to get rich by selling information, he wouldn't have gone public to the Guardian and Washington Post newspapers. As far as I can tell, he did so for our benefit, not for some foreign government.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Good thing saint Snowden fled to Russia becuse they are so lilly white.

    That's the mentality of Snowden haters in general - they believe their government is right in doing all those dirty, secret missions because it only has good intentions.
    Umm - rather not. As far as I can tell I can see no whistle blower activity in releasing information about US intelligence operation outside the US. I have no illusions that my country is some hand picked by god good guy (nor any one else for that matter) but I don't see any issue with having an intelligence agency.

    It is not. You are the boss of your government. You're not a kid needing protection from truth and the government is not your parent. You employ it out of necessity, and most of its top elective members are the most unscrupulous s that's how they earned their positions. It is your government which needs to be constantly monitored for possible wrongdoing, not you.
    True and if Snowden had kept his revelations to just that and not harmed people in the process I would respect him. But hey look I bought pot in Washington and drove to Idaho, I drank before 21, I shop lifted porno magazines back in the day, one of my cars has expired plates, I still use my out of state drivers license, I have bought smokes for under age kids, I ignore child seat laws on short drives and sometimes fail to even put mine on, I take some calls on my cell while driving, I have taken work pens home, I watch pirated videos, I have for desperate biotech used all kinds of hacked software on the maybe assumption that when the IPO happened we really will pay for it, I dug trenches when there was clearly not the state standard of equipment and workers for safety present... It might be the NSA should be watching me. There see I just put all that down on the internet lets see if the FBI shows up.

    So what I still defy anyone here to say they never bent the law or took some stuff from work (or violated a work policy on lunch time or use of resources etc). The activity in the US by the NSA as I have said is worrisome at minimum the FISA court needs reform. But I see no problem with NSA foreign intelligence - thus revelations about it make Snowden looks more like a spy than some saintly whistle blower.
    Last edited by conon394; October 15, 2014 at 10:39 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  18. #18
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Good thing saint Snowden fled to Russia becuse they are so lilly white.

    Ah the old you can only do the right thing if you are willing to go to jail for the rest of your life. What a crock of .

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    Default Re: Good thing saint Snowden fled to Russia becuse they are so lilly white.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    True and if Snowden had kept his revelations to just that and not harmed people in the process I would respect him.
    What harmful information did he release??

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    Ah the old you can only do the right thing if you are willing to go to jail for the rest of your life. What a crock of .
    In old times you actually became a hero by doing the right thing. Nowadays you're either a traitor or a terrorist.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Good thing saint Snowden fled to Russia becuse they are so lilly white.

    Not to mention that it is one thing to spy on government officials but collecting data on all the citizens of foreign countries is some kind of psychotic. There's nothing to defend in the NSA case but hey...

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