On why christianity has declined in the west

[fkizz]

Says the guy who dodges posts instead of replying to them. Isn't it time to diversity your portfolio?

I'm resented for being too frontal instead of dodging. As for diversifying portfolio, I'm always ready.

[Ludicus]

I don't see how you think that the Big Bang required a divine creator.

Listen, are you joking, or trolling? (read the post 75)

What the pope believes is not creationism

That's theologically funny.

Whats your main point anyway?

My original point was that the Pope ( unlike a significant part of the conservative Republicans) isn't a hard-core creationist.

[Sir Adrian]

You really don't have to be a quack self appointed pastor to believe in creationism. There are plenty of major protestant denominations where individual pastors happen to believe it and the denomination doesn't really steer them.

Not everybody is a neo-protestant to takes everything ad-literam and does not know the meaning of a metaphor. Believing in creationism does not mean you believe the Earth is 10000 years old and was made in 7 literal days.

Now, thanks for stopping putting words in my mouth regarding the RCC. That's just pure asshattery on your part.

Care to rephrase? This doesn't make any sense. What words did I put in your mouth about the RCC? Or what are you trying to say?

[High Fist]

Lol shite! My bad, I misread #75 and didn't recheck it.

We've been saying the popes not a hardcore creationist the whole time. Creationism is the belief of genesis being literal and true, meaning the world is 6000 years old and all animals were created as they are now. Therefore, the pope's not really a creationist.

Yeah he believes the world was created by god, but I wouldn't call him a creationist cause that'd confuse the issue. I'd say he believes in "creation" rather than "creationism", just to have some way to differentiate from the two, as I said near the top of the last page.

[Himster]

Lol shite! My bad, I misread #75 and didn't recheck it.

We've been saying the popes not a hardcore creationist the whole time. Creationism is the belief of genesis being literal and true, meaning the world is 6000 years old and all animals were created as they are now.

Creationism is the belief that the universe was created through divine agency. (It's in the name)
Young Earth Creationists believe that the Book of Genesis is literally true and that the world is 6000 years old and all the animals were created as they are now. (It's in the name).

Yeah he believes the world was created by god, but I wouldn't call him a creationist cause that'd confuse the issue.

What is confusing the issue is those who typically and openly self identify as "creationist" are young earth creationists (who leave out the young earth part to give themselves credibility).
What confuses the issue even more is people getting duped by these morons' attempt at obfuscating the issue.

I'd say he believes in "creation" rather than "creationism", just to have some way to differentiate from the two, as I said near the top of the last page.

Creationism is a doctrine inherent in all sects of the Abrahamic Faiths.
The differentiation is Creationism and Young Earth Creationism.
There are further differentiations within Creationism:
Gap-creationism: the age of the earth is accepted, no macro-evolution and global flood literally accepted.
Progressive-Creationism: Age of the Earth is accepted, evolution occurs in animals but not humans, no global flood.
Theistic-evolution: All science is accepted with God of the gaps thrown in (the most popular form of Creationism accepted by Abrahamics outside the more primitive areas of the US and Middle-East and Africa.)

[Sir Adrian]

Lol shite! My bad, I misread #75 and didn't recheck it.

We've been saying the popes not a hardcore creationist the whole time. Creationism is the belief of genesis being literal and true, meaning the world is 6000 years old and all animals were created as they are now. Therefore, the pope's not really a creationist.

Yeah he believes the world was created by god, but I wouldn't call him a creationist cause that'd confuse the issue. I'd say he believes in "creation" rather than "creationism", just to have some way to differentiate from the two, as I said near the top of the last page.

It's as Himster says. Creationism means you believe God made the universe.

[High Fist]

Hey I'm learning. That's new. :

I've never heard creationism used to refer to anything other than literal genesis. I suppose the rest don't really come up as much.

[basics]

The whole point of Moses giving us Genesis is that it is true, literally. The first chapter concentrates on God creating in sequence all that is and the second on the things He did create. Wherever it is spoken of in the Bible it is accepted by all the writers as being quite factual. If one has difficulty with that then one is going to have difficulty with anything else surrounding God just as Jesus Himself inferred when He said to the leaders that they were in error concerning Scripture. To Him the Scriptures were exact and He should know considering that He put the words into Moses' to write down so that the people were in no doubt as to how we came to be.

To me this is the prime reason that Christianity has waned in the West. Too many were never Christian but in name only. Thus the cares of the world overcame the little that they did believe. But the one solid thing about the real church is that it was never meant to be huge in any generation so what's drifted away was never part of it in the first place. But taken overall throughout all the generations His church in accumulation will be something that no man can number. The Parables of the sheep and goats and wheat and tares defines this quite radically.

So, God did make all things in the six twenty-four hour days that He says a little over six thousand years ago. That what He created was matured in age is all that makes for the confusion some have with that. Way back at the time of the Tower of Babylon when men thought to reach into heaven, just so today as man still reaches towards the stars and planets. Then it was to prove that they could be gods, today it is to prove there is no God, them replacing Him. Nothing changes.

[Himster]

I've never heard creationism used to refer to anything other than literal genesis. I suppose the rest don't really come up as much.

It doesn't come up because every sect likes to think their view on Genesis is axiomatic, or self evident and therefore doesn't even need to be mentioned.
Theistic-evolutionists say: "Of course the Universe is 13.7 billion years old, look at the demonstrable empirical evidence and of course God created the universe, it says so in Genesis. It's obvious"
While young earth creationists say: "Of course God made the Universe is 6 days, it says so in Genesis. I don't know what demonstrable empirical evidence is so I will deliberately misinterpret/misappropriate it to suit my preconceptions. Durp."
(That's my way of saying "Welcome back Basics: You've been missed.)

[High Fist]

Interesting, thanks.

But the one solid thing about the real church is that it was never meant to be huge in any generation so what's drifted away was never part of it in the first place.

How do you mean?

[basics]

High Fist,

Well, Jesus said that few get through the gates or put by Him another way, few travel the narrow path, both meaning the same thing. Put into perspective, when Israel crossed the desert not one who left Egypt apart from Joshua and Caleb and the newborns during the time in the desert got into the promised land, why? Because them that died not seeing it never had faith in Jesus Christ, the promised "seed" in whom salvation comes. Yes they were covered by the outward signs of the Covenant but inwardly they were still the sinners that they had been in Egypt and since salvation has to be accompanied by Spiritual conversion, in that they all failed.

Himster ole chap,

It is good to be back and good to see that you are still as combative as usual. So, what can I say but to repeat that God made everything just as He said through Moses in six awesome days some six thousand odd years ago and if you had been around, say on the eighth day, you would have seen the stars sparkle, the sun shine as well as the moon beaming in the night just as you can today. Yep, a fallen tree, one cut down, and the rings counted would show an age that wasn't there a few days before because that's how great our Creator is, so why would He need billions of years? Thanks for the comment because I missed all you guys too.

[Gaidin]

Care to rephrase? This doesn't make any sense. What words did I put in your mouth about the RCC? Or what are you trying to say?

You said this:

Not everyone who believes God made everything is quack self appointed pastor Gaidin. Or need I remind you how the Catholic Church is one of the biggest contributors in the field of astronomy and how medieval Orthodox theology reformed scientific research by putting out the idea that science should be left to the scientists and discovering God's creation is not heretical.

I've yet to say anything against the Catholic Church, and in fact defended it from the inanities that are Creationism.

[High Fist]

I get ya. So only those who truly believe will be rewarded, and they are the 'real church'. Surely though, the more in the mundane church the better, as more might become part of the real church.

Hmm. The thing I don't get about the whole thing is its purpose. Why do we need to believe in order to be rewarded? Why do we need to be "tested" in this life to see whether or not we get to paradise, when who we are and what we do is forged by what we experience in this life, i.e. if you grow up in a rough environment you're more likely to end up a sinner and the opposite in better off environments. How about just have us all born in paradise, then everyone shall be content and loving to each other and whatnot?

Why have Jesus die for our sins, when we could be born in a place where all are happy, immortal and pretty much can't sin against each other? Meh, I'm rambling.

[basics]

" I get ya. So only those who truly believe will be rewarded, and they are the 'real church'. Surely though, the more in the mundane church the better, as more might become part of the real church."

High Fist,

Perfectly appropriate and possible but as we have seen in the West, especially in the UK, even that is in decline.

" Hmm. The thing I don't get about the whole thing is its purpose. Why do we need to believe in order to be rewarded? Why do we need to be "tested" in this life to see whether or not we get to paradise, when who we are and what we do is forged by what we experience in this life, i.e. if you grow up in a rough environment you're more likely to end up a sinner and the opposite in better off environments. How about just have us all born in paradise, then everyone shall be content and loving to each other and whatnot? "

But the garden scene was Paradise in a figure, one to let us see what it could have been had Adam and Eve not fallen. Since they did fall all creation fell with them and the garden was withdrawn. That left everything at enmity with God, the reason there had to be a Saviour and a new Heaven and Earth in its turn. All therefore have fallen short of the glory of God and God has to punish that.

" Why have Jesus die for our sins, when we could be born in a place where all are happy, immortal and pretty much can't sin against each other? Meh, I'm rambling. "

The thing is that our system is quite different from that in heaven. Creation is a matter of substances that have no place in a Spiritual world where God lives. Man although made in the image of God is still to all intents and purposes made from the same materials. So, for him to get into heaven the flesh has to be replaced by the Spiritual uncorrupted. That is why Jesus had to come, to wash the corruption from off the flesh before death calls because after and without that entry to heaven is still impossible.

Everyone will be raised at the last day, His own given new bodies and the others some sort of body so that they too will survive but not as His will. Time won't exist anymore as we know it now. His will be as Adam was supposed to be in the type, busy working alongside Him as well as having their own mansions to look after whilst the others will be held in eternal torment. Not a nice place to be I can imagine. Therefore that's why it is imperative to seek Him while you can because tomorrow might well be too late.

You will have noticed that not everyone agrees with me or the Bible yet in my experience one can place all one's faith in it simply because it has never let me down. To Jesus it was the very word of God, indeed the power of God unto salvation so what others say don't come into the equation because it is your soul, your future, that is at stake here. You have to give a personal account to God as each of them will and just to finish, you know what Scripture says? " Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."

[Himster]

Himster ole chap,

It is good to be back and good to see that you are still as combative as usual.

So, what can I say but to repeat that God made everything just as He said through Moses in six awesome days some six thousand odd years ago and if you had been around, say on the eighth day, you would have seen the stars sparkle, the sun shine as well as the moon beaming in the night just as you can today.

I am around 6000 years ago. I can see 6000 light years away, I can see the universe as it was 6000 years ago, even hundreds of millions of years ago, and billions of years ago. So can you, if you had any sincere intellectual curiosity. The speed of light has a fixed limit, we know its speed and we can measure distance. We can state with 100% certainty that when we look at the Crab-Nebula for instance, we do not see what is there right now, we see what was there 6500 years ago (because it is 6500 lightyears away, a lightyear is roughly 6 trillion miles).
When you look at the sun, you don't see the sun, nobody has ever seen the sun, what you see is what the sun was like 8 minutes ago. These are basic facts that one should learn at the age of 13.

Yep, a fallen tree, one cut down, and the rings counted would show an age that wasn't there a few days before because that's how great our Creator is, so why would He need billions of years? Thanks for the comment because I missed all you guys too.

Ok, fine. Trees have rings that date back to before biblical "time", just as the fossil record records a billion yeas of life, the Earth has markers indicating billions of years of geological activity........ fine. Time is an illusion, it's an odd idea, but nothing about your doctrine means you can't accept basic science. The Big Bang and evolution are as plain and obvious as the rings inside a tree, if you accept the rings you must accept evolution and the Big Bang, they effect your worldview exactly the same way as the rings inside trees on the "first day". If the Universe was made mature then there would be rings/fossil records/background radiation from the Big Bang etc.

[Ludicus]

Lol shite! My bad, I misread ...

No problem..it happens to me too....

[clone]

But the one solid thing about the real church is that it was never meant to be huge in any generation so what's drifted away was never part of it in the first place.

wrong.jesus mesage was for all people not few "selected ones" thats why he told his disiples to spread his message as far as possible(until the end of earth). the idea that only selected few should be part of church is stupid idea cultivated by some westen protestant/baptist/whatever churches who like to believe that are special.

To me this is the prime reason that Christianity has waned in the West. Too many were never Christian but in name only. Thus the cares of the world overcame the little that they did believe.

i disagree
1 religion played a role in politics(crusades,inquisition.....)
2 lack of moderation in western christianity.specialy in some protestand/baptist/later saints movements.... religion is all on nothing.
either you are going to be or live
100% as the church/scriptures command or you are going in hell.or you are going to agree with what bible says 100% or not at all.
eastern christianity doesnt have this.in eastern church not only god isnt a maniac bureaucrat(if you dnt live 100 % as god commanded you will go to hell)
but also we use moderation . we dont belive that anyone can live 100% as the bible says because humans are different some in a good way and some in a less good way

[Shaxx]

In fact it is not a matter of how high your IQ becomes but simply that you are educated on other subjects. Education is always relevant and changes from place to place and from time to time. Here are some other reasons on why i believe christianity has declined in the west

I think the writing is on the wall when all that is required to increase disbelief and suspicion toward religion is how much else you know about the existence surrounding you based on empirical evidence.

1)Christianity has been replaced by secularism.Example:There is no point to go to confess to a priest since the act of confession has been upgraded to a science called phycology. Today if i have a problem i will ask secular authorities to help me and not the church. This has to do with the fact that a modern phycologist is for obvious reasons far more trained to help me than a priest. Modern state has copied many christian practises(from psalms that have been tranformed to modern music, to fasting that has become diet, to arts and other things).

The key words being 'far', 'more' and 'trained'. Also about borrowing things from the Church, that is a stretch. Comparing fasting to dieting is also odd, diet is all about what you eat, it is not about not eating at all for long periods of time, which is unhealthy.

This also means that behaviors that are anti-christian(for example the case with the sexual abuses)are more common today among the priests

More common? It is just easier to speak out against them today as others here have already mentioned, because they have lost so much of their power and social status. Long gone are the days when all you needed to replace some church windows was to accuse a few Jewish merchants of eating children, gather the mob into a frenzy cross in hand, kill them and steal their belongings.

"Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel." ~ Deuteronomy 17:12

3)The church has give up fighting in many fronts. The church must give battles and be persistant on certain issues. Unfortunatelly there is a logic today that claims that a priest must not say his opinion on sensitive issues because, supposingly radicalises christians. So one basic rule of christianity(convertion through the use of arguments)is practically abandonded

Do you really want people acting on everything that is written down in the Bible?

4)Young people dont go to church. It seems that the overwhelming majortiy of them finds that concept uninteresting. Perhaps the secular society has given young people more interesting things to do than go to church. For most of them "its a waste of time"(although to be honest most secular activities are also a waste of time)

Everything could be a waste of time, that is one of the reasons why religion was invented, to have something to throw in the face of Debbie-downers. 'There is meaning, if you listen to what god says through me'.

5)Prosperity and peace. When people are prosperous and live in peace they dont feel the need of going to church. Well a good old-fashioned armageddon could fix this

That does not bother you at all, that your religion only works when things are not going so well? You do not find that a little telling about the human animal?

Religion was a human invention, a tool to move men for the purpose of the few.

[basics]

" I am around 6000 years ago. I can see 6000 light years away, I can see the universe as it was 6000 years ago, even hundreds of millions of years ago, and billions of years ago. So can you, if you had any sincere intellectual curiosity. The speed of light has a fixed limit, we know its speed and we can measure distance. We can state with 100% certainty that when we look at the Crab-Nebula for instance, we do not see what is there right now, we see what was there 6500 years ago (because it is 6500 lightyears away, a lightyear is roughly 6 trillion miles).
When you look at the sun, you don't see the sun, nobody has ever seen the sun, what you see is what the sun was like 8 minutes ago. These are basic facts that one should learn at the age of 13. "

Himster,

The day that God made the sun, moon and stars they were much closer to us on earth than they are now so the light that they gave off then never waned as He spread them across space. For example if you stood in front of me with a torch that you switched on and walked backward away from me I would see that light until you disappeared into the distance yet as darkness set in that light could still be seen as long as my vision allowed. So, wherever the stars are now the distance may well be huge and the time it takes to get here huge but nonetheless their light was always visible especially in the night. Therefore the illusion of billions of years is a misnomer which is only reached by man working backwards rather than accepting what God says. He made all things as up and running meaning that age had to play its part in His thinking and execution thus bringing you to believe your version.

" Ok, fine. Trees have rings that date back to before biblical "time", just as the fossil record records a billion yeas of life, the Earth has markers indicating billions of years of geological activity........ fine. Time is an illusion, it's an odd idea, but nothing about your doctrine means you can't accept basic science. The Big Bang and evolution are as plain and obvious as the rings inside a tree, if you accept the rings you must accept evolution and the Big Bang, they effect your worldview exactly the same way as the rings inside trees on the "first day". If the Universe was made mature then there would be rings/fossil records/background radiation from the Big Bang etc. "

I can accept basic science but it's science through faulty measurement structures that makes me believe that God did it all and not nature if we can call evolution as that. No, I don't accept evolution at all simply because it is built on a theory alone made by man working backwards rather than working from Genesis as many scientists are now doing and finding that their calculations fit what is written there. If one looks at what the Bible says about what men tried to do with the Tower of Babel one can see the very same trait as he reaches out to the stars if only to find out where we came from when God has already told us. There never was a big bang any more than there is a Geologic column, any more than there are transitionals from any species to another in all the museums of the world.

" wrong.jesus mesage was for all people not few "selected ones" thats why he told his disiples to spread his message as far as possible(until the end of earth). the idea that only selected few should be part of church is stupid idea cultivated by some westen protestant/baptist/whatever churches who like to believe that are special."

Clone,

Perhaps you should go back to the Bible's first books and see that the Gospel of Jesus Christ began with Abel being chosen over Cain, Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Esau. Yes, the Gospel is always universal for the simple reason that everyone must know why some don't get into heaven whilst others do. Jesus Himself said that the path is narrow, the gate the same, so that few get to enter, so the next question must be who indeed do get to enter? He said " a man must be born again of the Spirit of God to enter heaven." To compile that He also said that, " No man can come to the Father except by Me and no man can come to Me except the Father draws him." This plainly asserts that only God asserts who is saved and is backed up by the book of life compiled in the heavens before the worlds were made.

" i disagree played a role in politics(crusades,inquisition.....)
2 lack of moderation in western christianity.specialy in some protestand/baptist/later saints movements.... religion is all on nothing.
either you are going to be or live
100% as the church/scriptures command or you are going in hell.or you are going to agree with what bible says 100% or not at all.
eastern christianity doesnt have this.in eastern church not only god isnt a maniac bureaucrat(if you dnt live 100 % as god commanded you will go to hell)
but also we use moderation . we dont belive that anyone can live 100% as the bible says because humans are different some in a good way and some in a less good way "

OK, let's look at each in turn taking the last first. When Jesus died on the cross He did so as what? As a substitute for each one that He stood in place of. When do they find out? The day that God makes them regenerate or born again. In effect since all their sins are now gone by His blood at the cross, if they stumble, even sin, these were covered by Him at the cross. Or, as the writer to the Hebrews says, God doesn't ever remember them as being sinners despite the fact that they might well stumble and fall, simply because God sees them through His Son Jesus Christ, the one who never sinned but became sin that they might be free of it.

Therefore no-one is 100% in his or her journey but with the Holy Ghost inside us we are expected to give it our best shot until the day we are called to glory. This applies to all God's people all across the world. So, having told you who God's people are, what of the others who hold the name only? Well Jesus told us about them in the Parables of the wheat and tares and the sheep and the goats. They think that they are Christian but He doesn't know them and they certainly don't know Him, why? Because they have never been born of the Spirit of God to be renewed in Jesus Christ. This has nothing to do with being of any denomination, rather to do with what the Bible teaches and the experiences of all them that are born again of the Spirit.

[Cyrene]

wrong.jesus mesage was for all people not few "selected ones" thats why he told his disiples to spread his message as far as possible(until the end of earth). the idea that only selected few should be part of church is stupid idea cultivated by some westen protestant/baptist/whatever churches who like to believe that are special

but i thought that Jesus Christ said he was only sent to Israel, as we can see from the Canaanite women's story, and also when he said "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

i believe these mean Jesus' mission was only to the Israelites, if one was sent to the market to buy a dozen apples and on his way back, a beggar stops him and asks for two apples. he tells him that he have not been sent to give apples to beggars but the beggar starts pleading and crying and due to pity, he gives him two apples. This does not change his mission. his mission is still to bring apples for the one who sent him.

furthermore we see in Acts 11:19 that the message was preached to Jews only, now i don't believe all this suggests that Jesus' was sent to all of Mankind.