On why christianity has declined in the west

[Cyclops]

elfdude,

What's more interesting is that once born again all those sins have been taken away by Christ at the cross whereupon the Father says that He never knew them as ever having been sinners. That's the wonderful news that the Gospel proclaims....

So being born again is a great change in human nature?

.... But as I was at my Pastor's home last night discussing both our positions before God thanks to the blood of Christ it would be helpful of you to tell me just what I am guilty of?

Racism. You made a derogatory generalisation about Jewish people.

...The book of Proverbs is relevant to the teachings of Christ because they contain directions from God to the Jewish people primarily as well as to the rest of us, why? Because human nature hasn't changed since the fall of man...

Wait I thought you said when we are born again our nature changes. Isn't being saved a great change in our nature?

...So, by calling God a racist you are admitting that He has a preference for certain people against others? We know that that wasn't originally for the Jews as they weren't called Jews until well after Abraham's time and since then and even before, Gentiles were favoured because that man was an Assyrian from Ur meaning therefore that God was never a racist concerning ethnicity...

The presentation of God as approving the murder of women and children on the basis of their membership of an ethnic group is perhaps an example of racism although it may have had a religious basis in which case God is a bigot.

...The preference God has is for everyone who has Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour and none are exempt from having that opportunity. If that is good enough for God then it is good enough for me. ...

That's an excellent example of faith, and also the universalist position most Christian communities have practised.

... Now as far as the dictionary explanation for racism is concerned I could say that certain tribes in New Guinea still are headhunters or that Scots like to fight whenever the notion takes them, is that also being racist?

The first statement is not racist if you can prove their are still headhunter tribes in new Guinea (IIRC there are not, the Australian administration took pains to eliminate the practice in the middle of the 20th century). There are still headhunting forays reported among the Dayak people of Borneo IIRC. If your statement was along the lines of "they are still headhunters, its in their nature as black tribesmen" then yes that's racism.

The second statement is textbook racism. Can you tell the difference between a pejorative generalisation based on membership of a group, and an observable and verifiable statement?

[basics]

Cyclops,

Spiritually yes.

You might call it derogatory but most wouldn't I suspect simply because most people like to hear gossip in general.

The change that God makes when one is born again comes from the realisation that Jesus died for their sin meaning that no longer is that sin accountable to the laws, Moses or natural, as well as God. So, from being Spiritually dead one becomes alive to and in Jesus Christ as a new creation. Of course the body and memory remain the same but the heart changes and I am talking here of the thing that drives our senses, the very thing that makes us what we are in the eyes of both God and others.

God is a bigot just as I am. That He favours those that believe on Him does not make Him a racist in any way. Remember they are the peoples who chose not to obey or believe Him.

Of course it is an example of faith but faith only comes by knowing Jesus Christ through rebirth. Otherwise, what is called faith is not faith at all.

I never said anything concerning black tribesmen and since headhunting was known to happen well into the 70's in South America is that also racism? As for my remark about us Scots, I don't retract that no matter where trouble seems to be in the UK there's a Scot in the mix. You obviously have never been in any Scots town at the week-end.

[Winston Smith]

Regardless of anything else, I'm pretty darn sure that the Hindus and the Shintoists and so forth of the world do have faith. Also, again, you are generalising. I don't like gossip, nor do several people I know. And I have direct and personal experience of non-Scots related trouble.

[Papay]

Whats surprising is that Christianity has emerged as a major factor in our gay marriage referendum. 75% of no voters in the Irish Times poll are "religious", compared to 45% of yes voters. The vote takes place next Friday.

Why surprising? I know Ireland has a conservative Catholic image but most analysts thought that was long since left behind. But then again the Church does control 90% of our primary schools and around 57% of secondary schools. The Church will no doubt be pressing the faithful to vote no today at Mass.

I've never went to Ireland but i assume the supposed "religiosity" of the Irish has more to do with the Irish ethnicity than true faith. A pious Irish catholic is also a patriot. Something similar happens to Balkans

[Elfdude]

What's more interesting is that once born again all those sins have been taken away by Christ at the cross whereupon the Father says that He never knew them as ever having been sinners.

Correct. Assuming you hold the word of god in your heart. Your judgements represent interpretations you cannot make.

A. You cannot interpret the bible to allow you to judge any person or people whatsoever, you can only interpret it to judge yourself.

B. Upon hearing the word you have the responsibility to keep the word in your heart.

C. It is recognized and expected that christians will have many difficulties keeping the words in their hearts. They may become judgemental, hypocritical, heretics and more throughout their daily lives.

You are guilty of judgement, wroth, and hypocrisy. The bible clearly states that you should not judge someone else less you be held to the same standard, the bible also says that everyone is guilty of all sins. I.E. while you're correct that being reborn "erases your sin", judgement brings that sin back to God's awareness so to speak. I.E. You are only forgiven for the sins prior to your rebirth if you keep the word of god. If you fail to keep the word of god (as you have) through knowingly sinning your rebirth never truly happened because you are clearly a sinful being that is too caught up in their own reflection to consider themselves wrong. You cannot accept god into your heart until you admit your sin, and you have not admitted your sin until you stop knowingly sinning. Your faith is god is not displayed via prayer or devotion but by keeping the word of god in your heart, that means treating others with love, kindness and acceptance. For it is not your jurisdiction to do otherwise. Heresy is perhaps the easiest sin to accidentally step into in today's world which is precisely why early protestant and catholic religons forbade the interpretation of the scriptures by the masses. Recognizing that today is a different world, interpretting the scriptures should only be done as an exercise of understanding them. Applying the scriptures to individual judgements of people(s) would be interpreting the scriptures to imply something that is not explicitly present. You are guilty of heresy. You are a false prophet. You are not a pastor. It is not your place to interpret the bible for others.

That's the wonderful news that the Gospel proclaims.

Where? Please point it out because I feel like you've missed a critical caveat. God does not forgive that which you have not admitted, if you have not admitted your sin and sought forgiveness for it then God does not forgive it. A rich man finds difficulty in entering heaven not because of the wealth he's amassed but because of the sin it took to do it that he does not recognize.

But as I was at my Pastor's home last night discussing both our positions before God thanks to the blood of Christ it would be helpful of you to tell me just what I am guilty of?

I've explained dozens of times now. I've used quotations from the bible directly. Your bible according to what you've said. Given that you've responded to all of these posts I must hypothesize one of the following reasons for your disbelief:

A. You honestly have no clue what the gospel says.
B. You never considered that you might be sinful in this way and thus rejected the idea before considering the evidence that you are.
C. You did read and consider the evidence, you ignored the possibility and carried on sinning.

If A, you're in luck, read the bible. If B, boo on you, I even provided quotes. If C, you're damning yourself to the worst of hell.

The book of Proverbs is relevant to the teachings of Christ because they contain directions from God to the Jewish people primarily as well as to the rest of us, why?

You don't seem to understand that we're not asserting anything about the teachings of christ other than the idea that the statement of Don't Gossip was not made because the bible considers jews to be fundamentally Gossipy. In fact by your own words the correct conclusion would be that man's nature has not changed since the fall of man, therefore being gossipy is a trait of ALL PEOPLES. Given this very obvious mistake on your part you should be able to see fundamentally why your interpretation is heretical. If your statement that jews are gossipy is true (relative to the norm) then the nature of man has changed. If your statement that jews are gossipy (relative to others) is false then you are simply engaging in post statement rationalization and in doing so are delving into heresy. Good job.

Because human nature hasn't changed since the fall of man. So, by calling God a racist you are admitting that He has a preference for certain people against others?

While there's other reasons we might assert the christian god is racist, it is not because you've interpreted this particular statement to be directed at the Jews. I can't think of a better example of not judging others. In making this statement you've violated the idea that the nature of man has not changed, and you've violated your own integrity by engaging in what is explicitly gossip and judgementalism based on a false (heretical) interpretation of the word.

We know that that wasn't originally for the Jews as they weren't called Jews until well after Abraham's time and since then and even before, Gentiles were favoured because that man was an Assyrian from Ur meaning therefore that God was never a racist concerning ethnicity.

Useless argument is useless. This is irrelevant to the argument you're having. There's no reason to assume god is racist without your interpretation. The primary target here is your interpretation.

The preference God has is for everyone who has Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour and none are exempt from having that opportunity. If that is good enough for God then it is good enough for me. Now as far as the dictionary explanation for racism is concerned I could say that certain tribes in New Guinea still are headhunters or that Scots like to fight whenever the notion takes them, is that also being racist?

Yes, saying certain types of tribes in New Guinea are headhunters is slightly racist. There are specific tribes which are and headhunting is not a widespread practice. Similarly saying scots like to fight whenever the notion takes them is also racist because it dismisses the concept that there are scots who are not like that. Even if you are in fact a scot, engaging in any sterotype about a group of people defined by race is ALWAYS racism. The real sad thing here is that you care so much about what we think about your devotion that you go through heretical lengths to demonstrate it and only succeed in demonstrating the faux nature of your christian rebirth.

[basics]

elfdude,

When Jesus Christ went on that cross as a once only sacrifice for sin, it becomes ludicrous to think that He only partially completed that task by erasing past sins only, why? Simply because if other sins remain then the sinner can never get into heaven. In fact that would repudiate what the writer to the Hebrews explains when he writes that once reborn God does not even remember that person as having ever been a sinner. That's what makes the cross so wonderful in that it covers all time and therefore the sins of all them that he died for.

So, when trying to make gains by what I said about the Jews being great gossips, God already took steps to tell them that they were and to stop doing it. Now it may well be that other peoples gossiped just as much but then we were not talking about them in the context that my exposition was made. We were talking about the events of the cross and the events at Pentecost wherein the disciples drew large crowds to hear about the supernatural events that had taken place.

I said that it would be impossible for the peoples who heard the disciples not to tell of these things whether back at home or even around Jerusalem. Three thousand came to know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour on that day alone and many followed in the days after. Why, it is impossible to think that even those not saved yet had heard directly or indirectly of what was happening there not also to tell others about it. God had already named them as gossips just as I did from my own experience with Jews so I insist that there is no racism attached to my thinking or God's.

Finally, I believe that Jesus Christ died on a cross that my sin might be erased from me so that at death I will take my place among the other saints to be judged. That offer is open to anyone who seeks after Him in earnest. Nothing but His blood saves and if it did then His task is complete. That is what the Bible, Old and New Testaments teach, and God being faithful to His word as He always is, won't let me down.

[Elfdude]

elfdude,

When Jesus Christ went on that cross as a once only sacrifice for sin, it becomes ludicrous to think that He only partially completed that task by erasing past sins only

Basics, your reading comprehension is failing you. I never said anything about jesus dying on the cross. Yes he died for our sins, ALL of our sins, however that forgiveness is only the bridge to god so to speak, a christian must still choose to cross that bridge and by sinning you prove that you are not willing to cross that bridge. Your actions on a day to day basis are what represent your relationship with god. As you do works of good you become closer to god because you are acting on the word of god and keeping it in your heart. As you do works of sin it's the same as consciously choosing not to believe in god. Your sin forces you away from god. Yes, at anytime you can turn back towards god and yes he will accept and likely forgive you (depending on your beliefs) but that requires admission of your wrongdoing which you're avoiding at all costs. You are a sinner. You can attempt to escape that fact all you want but you will ultimately get nowhere.

why? Simply because if other sins remain then the sinner can never get into heaven.

Jesus did not erase the sins from existence, he forgave the sins by becoming a sinful man himself and ascending to heaven. Doing so broke the rule that the sinless cannot go to heaven and because of that we are all forgiven. It's sort of like the supreme court ruling that a law is no longer constitutional, jesus rewrote the constitution of heaven by ascending to it. Sinners can and do get into heaven, that's what forgiveness means. The only requirement which is explicitly stated in the bible is accepting god into your heart, which implies not sinning knowingly and admitting your wrongs when you do and seeking forgiveness in a legitimate manner.

In fact that would repudiate what the writer to the Hebrews explains when he writes that once reborn God does not even remember that person as having ever been a sinner.

Your quote is out of context. Here's the actual passage:

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; (referring to jesus) 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. 3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. (what will jesus offer) 4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law (he would be greater than the high priests of the land): 5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. (breaking of laws) 6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. (a new set of rules) 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (the first covenant was wrong, omigod a statement saying god was wrong too!) 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (I will make a new law) 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. (God saying his previous expectations were too much) 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: (Essentially saying that he will give them knowledge of good and evil and allow them to act as they will) 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. (stating that goodness is located in the human heart, not the interpretation of men, all shall know me) 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. (While remember no more is a statement used, in the original text remember and act on are similar ideas, essentially according to the original text he says he will not act on their sins anymore) 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (a new law is enacted)

As you can see the new covenant with the lord functions in a fundamentally different way from the first. This one is not prescriptive meaning there aren't X Y or Z rules you can violate. However sin still exists. The difference is that when someone acts on sin they're deliberately walking away from god, when they act good they are naturally walking towards god. Their awareness of this process is no longer necessary. Forgiveness for any and all sins is availiable. However forgiveness is not automatic, it is dependent on them keeping the word of god in their hearts (as in behaving correctly) admitting their sins and asking forgiveness for them. If you don't ask forgiveness for it then god does not recognize it as forgiven with the exception of the original sin.

That's what makes the cross so wonderful in that it covers all time and therefore the sins of all them that he died for.

Yes it does. I wasn't debating that. You're off topic. Get back on topic and deal with your heresy because your attempts at discussing another topic are weak attempts at distraction. Whether jesus died for your sins or not is not at issue here, at issue is whether you have sinned, whether you have sought forgiveness for those sins, and how you can damn your soul with the best intentions. You have sinned. You have not sought forgiveness because you do not admit those sins. Thus your soul is currently damned. If you die today we would assume from the texts that your soul is destined for hell.

So, when trying to make gains by what I said about the Jews being great gossips, God already took steps to tell them that they were and to stop doing it.

The bible does not say the jews were great gossips. It says people were great gossips. Stop being a heretic.

Now it may well be that other peoples gossiped just as much but then we were not talking about them in the context that my exposition was made.

Yes we are. Your assumption is that the word was authored for the jews, this is an assumption not availiable in the text and is your own addition. That is by the definition of heresy heresy. The word was authored for the kingdom of god. Full stop. No exceptions. What's more you neither know the people or person(s) it was intended for as you are not god. In fact the only way that you as a christian can and or should interpret the passage is, "I should not gossip." your identification of others as gossipers, your identification of other conversation as gossip is heresy and a violation of the word.

We were talking about the events of the cross and the events at Pentecost wherein the disciples drew large crowds to hear about the supernatural events that had taken place.

Regardless your interpretation of the idea that it was Jews is entirely false. Pentecost as you know is a greek festival of weeks, a pagan celebration held by both the Greek and Roman Pantheons. You've proven yourself wronger than you already were. Excellent job. Want to dick around with more heresy and try to prove yourself right further?

I said that it would be impossible for the peoples who heard the disciples not to tell of these things whether back at home or even around Jerusalem.

Which is true. You also said those people were jews.

Three thousand came to know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour on that day alone and many followed in the days after.

Irrelevance is irrelevance.

Why, it is impossible to think that even those not saved yet had heard directly or indirectly of what was happening there not also to tell others about it.

You're offtopic again, the only issue here is the idea that people were gossipy and those people were jews.

God had already named them as gossips

He can do this, but he also didn't.

just as I did from my own experience with Jews

You cannot do this. You have no jurisdiction to judge men of gossip. It's similar to your daughter telling you that she punished her year younger sister because she was "bad", god in this case is the parent and you are nothing but a bickering child to him.

so I insist that there is no racism attached to my thinking or God's.

Never said it was in god's. There is to yours. By definition. You cannot change that truth anymore than you can argue that 2+2 does not equal 4.

Finally, I believe that Jesus Christ died on a cross that my sin might be erased from me so that at death I will take my place among the other saints to be judged.

He did, at least for arguments sake. Doesn't change that your sinning is the same thing as stating you don't believe in god in his eyes.

That offer is open to anyone who seeks after Him in earnest.

What does EARNEST mean?

It means resulting from or showing sincere and intense conviction. Since the bridge now exists and god is good, you show your earnest devotion by walking towards the good. When you sin knowingly it is clear that you are not sincere. I.E. you are not seeking god out for the sincere belief in good, you seem to only be seeking him out of your own vanity. You can keep walking but until you pursue the word earnestly you will gain no ground.

Nothing but His blood saves and if it did then His task is complete.

His task is complete, never argued that. You're bad at keeping on topic.

That is what the Bible, Old and New Testaments teach, and God being faithful to His word as He always is, won't let me down.

Blah blah blah, you end with a typical showy praise while reinforcing the idea that the people being spoken to were not jews, asserting god says jews are gossipy (quote?), and being too vain to admit your shortcomings. I really must wonder what's going through your mind as you consider this. You must surely think I'm some sort of temptation or demon attempting to undermine your faith. The funny thing is that your stubbornness is undermining your own faith better than I ever could.

[Spitfire -WONDERBOLT!]

I'm going to put it this way, I'm a 19 year old girl, I have a beard, a beard (among other things), that I didn't ask for, if there is a god, and as the arguments are really not convincing me, I don't think there is, they can go his or her self for doing this to me.

I have a religion, but there's no god in it, I have no need for false comfort, or life after death, for even the concept of death is...;. unproven, we stop working, our bodies degrade, and rot away, yes, but is this a bad thing? I sit on my arse and play games all day, when I can. Without the concept of an ending, there would be no urgency.

I have comfort from those I love, why do I need some :: with a big beard to love me? I am loved by people who actually ordain to spend time with me, and protect my interests. Unlike this god of yours, who as they don't ever die, don't seem to ever bother living either.

[fkizz]

In periods of declining hegemony (even if slowly), religion declines as well. This is just many millennia-old history repeating itself, and some people willingly or unwillingly want to accelerate or make sure on the decline of the hegemony that feeds them their lifestyle does happen.

Self Sabotage and self hatred ain't anything new.

[Phier]

In periods of declining hegemony (even if slowly), religion declines as well. This is just many millennia-old history repeating itself, and some people willingly or unwillingly want to accelerate or make sure on the decline of the hegemony that feeds them their lifestyle does happen.

Self Sabotage and self hatred ain't anything new.

I agree, even as an atheist, that declining religious beliefs does weaken society over all. Its simply a symptom though, not a cause.

[Squiggle]

In periods of declining hegemony (even if slowly), religion declines as well. This is just many millennia-old history repeating itself, and some people willingly or unwillingly want to accelerate or make sure on the decline of the hegemony that feeds them their lifestyle does happen.

Self Sabotage and self hatred ain't anything new.

Give me literally any examples of that. I can think of dozens of examples where social decline is met with increased fanaticism and extremism in religion. Give me any example or logical reason to suppose the decline of religion would exacerbate literally any underlying social ill's at all.

[basics]

elfdude,

If I am a sinner, a heretic or anything else that you can come up with because I said Jews are great gossips out of my own personal knowledge of many and backed up by God in Proverbs then I stand accused, am guilty. But, is it a sin? If Jesus' blood did not wash all my sins away or anyone elses then the blood fails and as far as I am concerned it didn't. It is not a bridge, now your adding to what Scripture says and what you accuse me of, it is the blood that paid all my debts to the laws, Moses or natural, and cleansed me before God who as a process renewed my heart and soul.

Now because I am still living, I do stumble but the thing is that when I do that and acknowledge it, He puts me right back onto my feet again without any wrath from the Father, why? Because His blood cleansed me to the uttermost that day at Calvary even despite the fact that I wouldn't be born for some nineteen hundred odd years later. Now if your theology tells you that we are judged on our works alone and not solely on his blood then you need to get back to your Bible.

James, when writing his letter was doing so to converts who might have been in some doubt about their conversion. He insisted that the fruit of their conversion was good works and without them conversion might not have been done. Just so when Paul teaches that we are in a race figuratively, running towards a finishing post. The fruit of the spirit is that we behave as Jesus would behave yet when we do fall that is not held against us as He is always there to pick us up. So, once a new creation in Christ Jesus, nothing, absolutely nothing, can separate us from the love of God. God knows my heart and He knows exactly who it belongs to. Calling me a racist or heretic is exactly what you accuse me of.

[Elfdude]

If I am a sinner, a heretic or anything else that you can come up with because I said Jews are great gossips out of my own personal knowledge of many and backed up by God in Proverbs then I stand accused, am guilty. But, is it a sin? If Jesus' blood did not wash all my sins away or anyone elses then the blood fails and as far as I am concerned it didn't. It is not a bridge, now your adding to what Scripture says and what you accuse me of, it is the blood that paid all my debts to the laws, Moses or natural, and cleansed me before God who as a process renewed my heart and soul.

Blah blah. Yes it is a bridge. As you know Jesus's death did not guarentee anyman no matter his character or ideas entry into heaven. Only those who partook of that cup so to speak. You partake of thate cup by doing good. You reject that cup by sinning and refusing admission, therefore forgiveness. A judgement about people is a sin. A heresy is a sin. The bible does not back you up, that is bull and you know it. You're attempting to rationalize why the people being spoken to at a greek festival were jews. Furthermore you're stretching the word to imply that it was a direct statement about them and not a general statement to people. You're the one adding new ideas to the bible because if you did not there is no way to conclude that the bible considers jews to be gossipy.

Jesus's blood can wash away your sin. That was never debated and you're again trying to get us off topic. Jesus's blood hower does not wash away that sin for everyone regardless of their actions and beliefs. That is to say, god is always ready to forgive because that forgiveness has been more or less guarenteed. The only caveat is earnestly seeking him out. The problem when you grow too vain to see the wrong in your deeds is that vanity also places yourself between you and god. You cannot be forgiven in this state, or rather you're not allowing yourself to be forgiven. This is crux of the issue here, there is no possibility of forgiveness if you do not allow it to happen. You sinful actions are the same as not allowing it to happen and your pointless justification does nothing to alleviate you of this sinful burden. God can remove that burden for you if you turn to him earnestly and repent your misdeeds, but that earnest turning requires you to genuinely seek him out and one cannot be genuine if they sin without regard for their actions expecting forgiveness. God will turn these individuals away because they never truly wanted god, they just wanted to suit themselves. Similarly by refusing the very simple and explicit word of the bible which directly contradicts your statement you continue to sin. You have been informed of this by many individuals (not just myself) and you have refused to deal with it continuing to post your heresy and falsly represent the word of god. This is a grave behavior in the world of christianity because it's the type that is easiest for righteousness to be tempted into. You believe you are doing the work of god but because of your loose interpretrations and outright contradictory beliefs your actions inevitably lead you towards sin. How unfortunate for you that the log in your eye prevents you from doing the very thing you preach.

Now because I am still living, I do stumble but the thing is that when I do that and acknowledge it, He puts me right back onto my feet again without any wrath from the Father

No he does not. He will carry you if you refuse to walk but he will not force you into the kingdom of heaven. This requires your active participation. Making an honest mistake is one thing, making a mistake shamelessly and expecting unlimited forgiveness is another thing entirely. The point being that you need to learn from your mistakes which you clearly aren't.

why? Because His blood cleansed me to the uttermost that day at Calvary even despite the fact that I wouldn't be born for some nineteen hundred odd years later. Now if your theology tells you that we are judged on our works alone and not solely on his blood then you need to get back to your Bible.

My bible does not tell me how we are judged, that is up to god to decide last I checked. My bible simply tells me if I seek the word earnestly and genuinely that my stumbles on the way will be forgiven. However if I turn away from god then it is my own vanity that has damned me, not that I have not been forgiven. God cannot help the decisions of fools who think they can cheat a system that can't be cheated. Their very thoughts lead them astray.

James, when writing his letter was doing so to converts who might have been in some doubt about their conversion. He insisted that the fruit of their conversion was good works and without them conversion might not have been done. Just so when Paul teaches that we are in a race figuratively, running towards a finishing post. The fruit of the spirit is that we behave as Jesus would behave yet when we do fall that is not held against us as He is always there to pick us up. So, once a new creation in Christ Jesus, nothing, absolutely nothing, can separate us from the love of God. God knows my heart and He knows exactly who it belongs to. Calling me a racist or heretic is exactly what you accuse me of.

That's hilarious, now you presume to know God's opinion? That statement in itself is the statement of a false prophet and a heretic. The point of this little argument is whether you have earnestly ever been recreated by Christ. My assertion is that you have not yet gotten it right as you continue to sin with impunity despite ample evidence to show you that it is in fact sin and it is explicitly stated as such in the bible. In your vanity you have chosen to believe you've been recreated as a member of God's kingdom, instead of recognizing that it is this very feeling that denies you entry. Thus you anticipate your victory and sin ignoring the consequences of doing so.

[nce_wht_guy]

I agree, even as an atheist, that declining religious beliefs does weaken society over all. Its simply a symptom though, not a cause.

Yeah, clearly we're having a really rough time of it.

[basics]

elfdude,

Then you do not understand the meaning of Justification by Faith. When I was born again of the Spirit of God that was the security of me being justified by faith. Jesus' actions on the cross took away all my sins, past, present and future. That is why God can say that He will remember my sins no more. In other words such is the power of justification that he now sees me as never having been a sinner at all.

Quote, I don’t know about you, but I would say that Hebrews 10:17 is good news. God sees all our sins—past, present and future—and says, “Your sins I remember no more!” The words “no more” are a strong double negative in the original Greek text. In other words, God is saying, “Your sins I will by no means ever remember!”

Has God lowered His standards? No, He is still perfectly holy. He did remember all our sins—2,000 years ago at the cross. Every sin which we have committed or will commit has been punished to the full in the body of Jesus Christ at the cross. That is why today, God remembers our sins no more. We should, therefore, not be sin-conscious.

Each time we feel condemned for our past mistakes, God wants us to remember the cross and say, “Lord Jesus, you were sentenced for this sin I committed. You bore the judgment, so God will not judge me for this sin. You were condemned for this sin, so God will not condemn me for it.”

If you don’t look to the cross, you will become sin-conscious and you will walk around with a certain expectation of judgment. And that expectation of judgment will give the devil a chance to get you thinking that God has something against you because of your sin.

You must come to the place where you know and believe that all your sins are forgiven, and that you are saved eternally.

Hebrews 10:12, 14 says, “But this Man [Jesus], after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God…For by one offering He has perfected forever…”

You and I are perfected forever because of Jesus’ perfect work on the cross. We are perfected by God’s full acceptance and perfect delight in His Son’s work that has so glorified His holiness. Beloved, hear God say to you, “I will be merciful. Your sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more.” unquote.

And quote,

Isaiah 43:25
"I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.

Jeremiah 31:34
No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

Jeremiah 50:20
In those days, at that time," declares the LORD, "search will be made for Israel's guilt, but there will be none, and for the sins of Judah, but none will be found, for I will forgive the remnant I spare.

Micah 7:18
Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy.

Micah 7:19
You will again have compassion on us; you will tread our sins underfoot and hurl all our iniquities into the depths of the sea.

Romans 11:27
And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

Hebrews 10:17
Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."

So, if by saying that the Jews were great gossips that makes me a sinner all I have to say is that Jesus took that away at the cross. If He didn't as you infer then the cross was a failure, why? Because His paying for the sins of many was a once only event meant to cover all time even His saving of me. Your rant is just like that of the Pharisees and reeks of Romanism whereupon both must have power over people. But thankfully salvation is a one to One with God and so I look forward to see what your reply is and I would like a list of the heresies you accuse me of.

[Elfdude]

Then you do not understand the meaning of Justification by Faith. When I was born again of the Spirit of God that was the security of me being justified by faith. Jesus' actions on the cross took away all my sins, past, present and future. That is why God can say that He will remember my sins no more. In other words such is the power of justification that he now sees me as never having been a sinner at all.

No one interprets it this way, your attempt to justify why you can sin freely is underming your own faith in the word. You are departing from it greatly.

Let's take a look at Matthew, there's some good quotes about things god will not forgive, and it's its explicitly stated as such. Then let's try and examine what about these things make them wrong. Matthew 6 says I'll highlight the quote as it relevant to you:

1 “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven."

The first part you clearly do and enjoy. The second seems to reject your earlier assumption that you are guarenteed entry into heaven.


2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others."

This is another way of saying your faith should be private for you to rejoice in not to be exalted by.

"Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full."

Doing good is its own reward.

3 "But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing"

Don't make your gifts of goodness obvious.

4 "so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Good is only good if it's done without the expectation of reward. Thus, believing in god so you won't go to hell is utterly useless.


Prayer
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full."

Reward can be interpretted as punishment or justice.

6 "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

Kind of opposing everything you do on this forum.

7 "And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words."

Your irrelevant bable talking about irrelevant concepts.

8 "Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him."

Ask not for what you need but trust it will come to you.


9 “This, then, is how you should pray:


“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]
but deliver us from the evil one.[b]"

The lord's prayer.


14 "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you."

Forgiveness of other's tresspasses is vital, that includes acceptance and nonjudgement.

15 "But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

This is but ONE way you can keep yourself from the forgiveness of Jesus.

Let's consider John where the very presence of the Word of God is coined and the concepts surrounding it are defined: 1 John 1:

"This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all."

God is not just a good being, he is goodness itself. He cannot abide evil within him and is incapable of sinning.

6 "If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth."

If you claim to be faithful but continue to sin, you are a liar and have not sought god.

7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin."

Only if you walk in the light (towards goodness) is your sin forgiven and purified. You must choose to partake of the gift of his son.


8 "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

No one is without sin, it's plausible that no human action is without sin.

9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

What I was saying earlier.

10 "If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."

Rejecting the gift of forgiveness.

Quote, I don’t know about you, but I would say that Hebrews 10:17 is good news. God sees all our sins—past, present and future—and says, “Your sins I remember no more!” The words “no more” are a strong double negative in the original Greek text.

A strong double negative? You realize that is a positive right? I'm not sure what you're talking about, but in the original text the meaning for I will not remember, vs I will not judge or percieve is the same. God is saying the same thing in these three sentences according to the original text.

"Your sins, I remember no more!"
"Your sins, I percieve no more!"
"Your sins, I judge no more!"

You see, the concept of remembering, percieving, and judging at the time were all considered to be the same thing. If you percieved something you inherently were judging it, God is undercutting this common meaning by saying, I'm not the same as those who say they forgive you and secretly continue to judge, when I forgive you I will forgive you completely. However this does not diminish the requirement that you approach him EARNESTLY. As you have so beautifully put it.

In other words, God is saying, “Your sins I will by no means ever remember!”

No he's not. He's saying his forgiveness is absolute. You can still damn yourself through your own free will.

Has God lowered His standards? No, He is still perfectly holy. He did remember all our sins—2,000 years ago at the cross.

You're just inventing things. He is all knowing. To say he does not remember the sins is to impose limitations upon god. Limitations which we both know do not exist. A much more accurate view would be to say that the sins are relevant to him anymore insofar as they do not come between him and a christian. He expects that in journeying through the cobwebs of life we will come out covered in the strands of sin, what he cannot help (or rather has promised us he would not do) is what our own choices and decisions wrought. For this he just requires us to turn towards him and he will brush away the webs.

Every sin which we have committed or will commit has been punished to the full in the body of Jesus Christ at the cross.

Not arguing this.

That is why today, God remembers our sins no more. We should, therefore, not be sin-conscious.

Which is exactly why paul hates and fights against the sin of his human condition? No, as christians you do not go around living ungodly and sinful lives, you should avoid sin where-ever possible and seek earnest forgiveness where temptation has taken you. To the man who is truly seeking forgiveness he will be forgiven. To the man who seeks the kingdom of heaven he will find his own greed to be his biggest barrier. You talk of greed, and expectation and of righteousness. There is no room in your heart for humility, trust, or kindness. You are fundamentally unable to feel the Lord because you have chosen a path of behavior that has put you as far from the lord as East is from West.

Each time we feel condemned for our past mistakes, God wants us to remember the cross and say, “Lord Jesus, you were sentenced for this sin I committed. You bore the judgment, so God will not judge me for this sin. You were condemned for this sin, so God will not condemn me for it.”

That is not true, the expectation that god will not condemn you is in itself a damning perspective to hold. God will not condemn you out of love that is for sure but you cannot show your love of him by abusing that love. For you to enter the kingdom of heaven that love must be genuine, mutual and earnest. While the point is not to feel affraid at every possible moment of potential temptation, his forgiveness is there largely to alleviate this, that is not to go so far as to diminish the fact that sin is still bad. A parent is not going to hate you for breaking their rules but that does not diminish the consequences of breaking that rule. God is a patient forgiving parent, but he is not authoritarian, he will not force of us that which would necessitate undercutting our free will. We walk away from him freely. What you need to realize is that walking away from him while claiming you are walking towards him is entirely possible and rather common.

If you don’t look to the cross, you will become sin-conscious and you will walk around with a certain expectation of judgment. And that expectation of judgment will give the devil a chance to get you thinking that God has something against you because of your sin.

You are correct, you should not expect judgement, but you should not also expect to be forgiven. You're confusing what is with what our perspectives should be. The bible makes it clear that though we should not be expected to be condemned by our sins we cannot be sinful beings expecting to be forgiven either. The bible clearly shows that it prefers we do our best to be good and that is how we earnestly seek forgiveness. If we are not doing our best to be good we lie when we say we want forgiveness, we just want to benefit ourselves.

You must come to the place where you know and believe that all your sins are forgiven, and that you are saved eternally.

No you do not need to come to this place, in fact this is a dangerous place to be. You need to come to a place where you knowingly elect to do good in a genuine way. This is how you seek forgiveness earnestly. If you chase after forgiveness for forgiveness sake then you are simply alleviating your own guilt and not seeking a relationship with god. For god is goodness and to seek a relationship with goodness earnestly you cannot sin recklessly.

Hebrews 10:12, 14 says, “But this Man [Jesus], after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God…For by one offering He has perfected forever…”

You and I are perfected forever because of Jesus’ perfect work on the cross. We are perfected by God’s full acceptance and perfect delight in His Son’s work that has so glorified His holiness. Beloved, hear God say to you, “I will be merciful. Your sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more.” unquote.

If you continue Hebrews 10:26 says what? Oh yeah, it says this:

26 "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,"

So wait, deliberately keep on sinning doesn't forgive us? Why not? Oh because there is no sacrifice for sins left.

27 "but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

Jeez, either the bible is contradicting itself or you need to continue reading.

Isaiah 43:25
"I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.

This is a story about the transgressions of Israel and the Jews being forgiven. No one has debated he forgives people. I have debated whether or not you can damn yourself. So far the bible seems to indicate that yes he forgives people and yes they can still damn themselves.

Jeremiah 31:34
No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

This is only 4 lines after a more thorough explanation terms the new covenant as a promise that no longer will parents eat sour grapes and their children's teeth rot for it but rather our teeth will rot from our own consumption of sour grapes (sin).

Jeremiah 31:30 "Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—their own teeth will be set on edge."

I could go on about why the rest of your quotes are irrelevant or out of context but I think you get the point. Next time maybe bother reading around the quotes you took from a christian apologetic website.

So, if by saying that the Jews were great gossips that makes me a sinner

It does for multiple reasons.

all I have to say is that Jesus took that away at the cross.

Ok, continue to believe that, the funny thing is when you read the passage your quotes are from they don't say that at all. Ohwell, your perception of the word has been corrupted far beyond what I can accomplish with reason I suppose. Not everyone can be expected to read and know the bible I guess.

If He didn't as you infer then the cross was a failure, why? Because His paying for the sins of many was a once only event meant to cover all time even His saving of me.

I didn't say he didn't, and I didn't infer it. You need to work on your reading comprehension. I'm asserting you rejected it by knowingly sinning, refusing to admit it, and then refusing to ask for forgiveness of it. Consider you simply continue to do so despite knowing this we can conclude you are not earnestly pursuing the word of god.

Your rant is just like that of the Pharisees and reeks of Romanism whereupon both must have power over people. But thankfully salvation is a one to One with God and so I look forward to see what your reply is and I would like a list of the heresies you accuse me of.

My rant is nothing like the pharisees. I believe you might benefit from reading Jesus' rant against the Pharisees again. What he is lecturing against is the same vanity and greed that is the basis of your expectation of forgiveness, the recklessness of your sinfulness and the thoroughness of your hypocrisy.

[Dracula]

I was travelling and missed some things, but here we are together again. lol

Never understood the requirement for humility very well. One must always say he is a sinner. But by saying it only he doesn't become pure because even the dirtiest may know and say to be sinners. So what he says is basically indiffertent; but what he does matters. However there should be certain standards, after which, one can be counted saint or sinnless. Then achieving that, to continue to say he is a sinner is actually lying and kind of perverted. Why can't he say he is pure ? And if he continues to say that he is dirty or dirtier, being purer and purer, it becomes psychopathic. Not that I am surprised because a lot of things are overdone in this way in this religion.

[fkizz]

Never understood the requirement for humility very well. One must always say he is a sinner. But by saying it only he doesn't become pure because even the dirtiest may know and say to be sinners. So what he says is basically indiffertent; but what he does matters. However there should be certain standards, after which, one can be counted saint or sinnless. Then achieving that, to continue to say he is a sinner is actually lying and kind of perverted. Why can't he say he is pure ? And if he continues to say that he is dirty or dirtier, being purer and purer, it becomes psychopathic. Not that I am surprised because a lot of things are overdone in this way in this religion.

It's because of Original Sin :'). It works beautifully for me in practice, but don't ask me in theory how it works, because I won't be able to explain well.

But it's redeemable. Redemption can free yourself from it. Well this just to give you some pointers. No energy to elaborate much more.

[Cyclops]

I think the confused message left by Jesus' followers I part of the recent decline in Christianity in the West. With so much confusions sects are free to select beliefs and disagree with other Christians.

This goes back to that early post where someone mentioned literacy. Once you read the Bible Christianity as presented by all the Churches becomes less believable, and God starts to look like a schizophrenic mass murderer.

[Geronimo2006]

Most Europeans are Catholics and find the Vaticans pre 1960s moral teaching unacceptable. The Reformation also played a role by making it possible to question church teaching. Richer societies tend to be more secular as people see they can prosper without superstition. Religion is the scripture of the poor and desperate with no other hope. The child abuse scandals in the Church are boring by down the Church in The West. At the same time Protestantism is not growing in Europe because in some countries like Ireland there are long memories of wars of religion.