Where's Northumbria?

[Hardrada]

I've just started playing this mod, and am really excited about it as this is one of my favourite historical periods, but I do have one complaint, and that is the absence of the Northumbria Angles. I accept that the Jutes are best portrayed as a united faction, and the Saxons can be adequately portrayed as such (although splitting them into Wessex and Sussex may be better), but a single faction cannot represent the Angles. At the least they should be split into Northumbria and Mercia - if you want to match the fine job you have done with the British factions they should be split into Bernicia, Deira, Mercia and East Anglia.

I know that Bernicia was probably still in British hands when the mod starts, and I’m not sure when Deira was established, but either way the Northumbria Angles are of too great importance to leave out of a mod like this. Their absence distorts the situation in the north out of proportion. Leaving out the opponents that occupied the attention of the northern British, and eventually brought about their downfall allows them to grow stronger than they would otherwise, and focus elsewhere to the detriment of surrounding factions.

I hope you will reconsider and revise the Anglo-Saxon factions to better reflect the reality of the situation. You have obviously put a lot of work into the British factions and it is disappointing that a similar effort has not been made for the Anglo-Saxons.

[Agraes]

First thing is that we are limited to 20 factions. If we had more slots, then we would have also included Northern Picts, Laigini, Franks, Brycheiniog and some emerging factions.

Second thing is that, in 481 AD, only one english kingdom was well established: the Jutish Kent. Wessex won't appear until the early VIth century and became a true power after 577 AD and Dyrham. First Saxons in Sussex were there, but Aelle was probably more a kind of warlord of sub-king under Jutish vassalage than an independant king. It was also the period when East Englia was established, Angles were present since some decades but in the late V and early VIth century they number grows as the whole Angle population emigrated from their continental homeland, under the kingship of Icel.

There was also many more colonies. The thing is that the scheme "Britons vs English" isn't realistic at all. Some english settlers were established by British rulers to defend against other english well into the VIth century. This will be reflected in one of our next big updates, with a system of "vassal settlement" to recruit germanic foederati and such.

Deira was still under British dominion. They probably revolted from time to time, but Deira will became independent only in the late VIth century, when it will size Caer Ebrauc (York) after the last British kings Peredur and Gwrgi have been slained by the Bernicians at Caer Greu. Mercia will appear much later too.

Unto Bernicia. Octha, a relative of Hengest, was settled in the North, and we *may* give a province to the Jutes in Bernicia, as Ida himself was apparently of Jutish origin.
Bernicia will only emerge as a true power after Ida, in the middle of the VIth century, and will only threatens the Northern Britons at a bigger scale in the late VIth century. In 481 AD, there was no "Lloegyr" North of the Humber, only English settlements under British rule and possibly a tiny estate led by the descendants of Octha.

But to show you we are not completly dissentered with Northumbrian history, we are currently working on lot of new historical battles. This includes a "Northumbrian" campaign, with the battles of Degsastan, Chester, Hatfield, Heavenfield, Maes Cogwy and Winwaed

[Hardrada]

Thanks for the reply Agraes.

To address your first point; isn’t RTR getting around this by using counter/rebel factions? I don’t know the technical details but if they can get it to work it would be worth looking into.

I guess ATW is set about a century earlier than I personally would prefer, and you have to stick to what is appropriate for that period. I must confess I was a little surprised at how late some kingdoms were founded. My knowledge of the early years of the Anglo-Saxon settlement isn’t as good as it could be, so I would be interested to hear what books you recommend to research this period.

I’m enjoying my Engle game so far, although it looks like it will be a while before I’m ruling Bernicia. I look forward to trying my luck with the historical battles.

[Agraes]

Yes, several "minor" factions (in fact, some of them weren't minor at all) are already represented by rebel kingdoms, such as Bryneich (that will became Bernicia), Frankish kingdom or Leinster.

I can only recommand you to read The Age of Arthur by John Morris. The book is quite old (1970) and Morris have been critised a lot by his use of sources and his own lack of criticism, but it's a great book. Although not everything is up to date and true (for exemple Arthur's campaign against the Gaels in Dyfed and the re-establishement of a British dynasty when we know that Aircol and Vortipor were of Gaelic origin and linked with Munster) but it's an excellent synthesis of the era.

I would also love a sub-campaign starting around 580 AD with more english kingdoms and the powerful Urien Rheged. Maybe we will work on this one day, that's a big may as we got other priorities