RK and Adunabar loving each other

[Guedes]

I know that RTW AI is pretty dumb, but one thing that bothers me deeply is the fact that Adunabar and RK AI, who should be mortal enemies in this mod, love each other with such a passion that in the first turn of all the campaigns i played this far they do a ceasefire in the first turn and than team up. If the player is playing rohan or harad than its even worse because they will team up against you, which is even more inaccurate (rk in a war against rohan or adunabar against harad).

So, my question is, there is not a way to prevent that the RK and Adunabar sign a ceasefire and guarantee that they will be at war until one of the factions is extinguished?

[Aradan]

Code-wise everything that can be done has been done. However, as you said, the AI is stupid and tends to focus on the player, particularly in higher difficulty settings.
WRT to the Rohan-RK alliance, a near-permanent alliance has been set up in DoM, which makes a war between them extremely rare until very late game, but that doesn't exist in TNS (didn't know how back in '07).

[Guedes]

What about just remove the ceasefire option for the RK/Adunabar AI? Thats not possible?

[Aradan]

No, it isn't.

[Guedes]

That bothers me a lot.

I understand that there is a tool for permanent alliance thing, since in vanilla the roman faction get it in the start of the campaign, but a permanent war thing should be possible too. I will search the net for some mod tips on that regard.

Also, you should consider a permanent alliance for the harad + adunabar too.

[Aradan]

I think you're significantly overestimating both the capabilities of the game engine and the extent to which diplomacy is moddable in RTW. Even enabling the two permanent-alliances we have atm took significant effort in order to have them glitch-free. The game has been created (hard-coded, that is) to work in a very specific way, with very specific parametres and it's not easy to bend its rules. There is no yes/no setting that just toggles permanent wars or alliances on and off.

Anyhow, by all means, feel free to make that internet search for a relevant modding tip. I'll be surprised though, if you find any RTW mod/modder that has achieved a greater degree of game mechanics manipulation than DoM.

WRT Harad-Adunabar permanent alliance, that's neither practical (for mechanics reasons) not desirable. There's nothing in the lore that would justify an allaicne between those two factions that would be in the same category as the RK-Rohan and Dale-Dwarves alliance.

[Guedes]

I apologize, but i think you misunderstood me. Im not overestimating the capabilities of the game engine because, what i meant was, if i know something is possible in the vanilla version of the game than it should be possible in a mod version too. Thats when i gave the example of the unbreakable alliance between roman factions in the vanilla version of the game should also be possible in a mod version (and yourself seems to agree since you seem to have implemented one between rohan and rk).

Also, if it is possible to rebel faction in the vanilla version of the game being constantly at war with every other faction, without the possibility of a ceasefire, than it should be possible to do the same between two factions like RK and adunabar. Or, at least, make them eternal rivals, like the roman factions and Carthage at the vanilla version of the game.

In fact, i know for granted that it is possible to disable the diplomatic actions for a faction in the game, just like it is for the rebels in the vanilla version, i just dont know how. That would solve the issue with RK, it would destroy the possibility to sign a ceasefire with any of those faction (adunabar, harad, dunland and rhun) which starts the game at war, and to break the alliance with rohan. Since the alliance in the start of the game include trade rights, it wouldnt be a problem for economic reasons between rohan and RK. It would be more a tweak than an actual solution, i know, but for me it would work because i dont play with RK anyways.

I understand that this isnt a matter of just switching a command though.

Now, i did some quick research on the net and messed around a bit with the mod files. I have a question about the diplomatic AI behavior in the descr_strat file, you guys set the core attitudes weight between RK and Rohan a -600 value, there is a commentary that "negative numbers to -600 appear also to work", however, maybe here it is the source of the problem why rohan and RK AI frequently end up in a conflict, because in the vanilla version whenever two AI factions are allied, the set value is 0. I know that putting a negative value (any one) will set the AI to be allies, but dont know if setting high negative value dont actually make the AI more aggressive instead, since maybe the AI calculate the aggro based on a multiplier basis ignoring the minus before the number, so its like when you put -600 you mean (you guys are allies for some reason but actually hate each other). My question than is: did you guys tested a 0 value between rohan and RK to see if the AI aggro actually drops from -600?

Now, i know AI aggro is defined by a myriad of other factors, like even line of sight and such, thats maybe another factor why RK AI is uncertainly about attacking adunabar, since adunabar is a region surrounded by mountains an thought without many line of sight for the RK AI.

[Stark1]

Well, If you know that stuff is obviously possible, you should definitely mod it in yourself and explain Aradan how it's done. I'm sure a rookie modder like him will love to hear your advice.

I mean, he's only working on this for measly 7(?) years, he probably didn't even notice there were unbreakable alliances in vanilla RTW.

[Aradan]

@ Guedes: Your assumption that because something exists in vanilla can also exist in a mod under different circumstances is simply wrong.

For example, permanent alliance in vanilla works through the combination of several factors: the superfaction feature, the roman culture, specific placement/order of factions in descr_sm_factions. It also involves certain hardcoded mechanics, such as complete inability to attack your ally, forced sharing of line of sight, the involvement of a non-playable faction, etc. Assuming one knows exactly what the conditions are for the activation of a permanent-alliance and how exactly to manipulate it to apply to non-roman factions, etc, what if there is no empty faction slot for the non-playable faction? And if there's no room and you decide to make that faction playable, do you know what side-effects being a superfaction has and if you'd be willing to accept them gameplay-wise? And so on.

Another example is your reference to the rebels. The "slave" faction has several hardcoded (that is, tied to their internal name, "slave", which you cannot assign to any other faction) unique characteristics, one of which being lack of diplomacy. Which is why once they are war with someone (they do not automatically start at war with anyone, it has to be either set in descr_strat or initiated by another faction), they cannot be at peace.

That said, assuming both options (permanent peace and permanent war) are possible, how can you know if they can work together? Several features in RTW are incompatible (eg superfactions cannot form hordes, superfactions and hording being mechanics that individually work just fine). And how can you know if you can have multiple instances of a mechanic without any unacceptable hitches (ie multiple permanent alliance groups result in shared line of sight for *all* factions involved in *any* such group)?

What I'm saying is, do not assume that because something exists in vanilla, its general principle can be implemented in a mod just like that. The game was not coded with such flexibility in mind.



WRT to the core_attitudes defined at the bottom of descr_strat, which are the values that determine how much factions like each other, we have tested those extensively and our negative values are fine. The problem is not there, it's that the AI uses certain criteria to evaluate its next target, such as number of provinces sharing borders, distance, perceived military strength ratio and core attitude, and unfortunately the relative weight/importance of that criteria is hardcoded and does not particularly favour core attitudes as a determining factor.


I can assure you (and I'm honestly not just touting my own horn here) that we have done a lot of testing, probably more than several other teams combined, and we are always in the lookout for modding breakthroughs, when we're not the ones making them. Having said that, all criticism and feedback are welcome. We have had quite a bit of that over the years and it has helped us improve FATW significantly. But please do not assume we haven't bothered to do our own research.




EDIT: @Stark: 5 years. Real work on DoM started in 2010, up to that point we were busy with Viking Invasion II and Norman Invasion, and 2-3 other mods we were helping with.

[Guedes]

Well, If you know that stuff is obviously possible, you should definitely mod it in yourself and explain Aradan how it's done. I'm sure a rookie modder like him will love to hear your advice.

I mean, he's only working on this for measly 7(?) years, he probably didn't even notice there were unbreakable alliances in vanilla RTW.

First of all, i said i know its possible, not OBVIOUSLY possible, i clearly stated that may not be an easy task to do.

Also, your argument is pretty dumb really (im not trying to insult you, please dont take me wrong), you dont need to be able to jump 7 feet tall to know that is possible or no to a normal human like you jump 7 feet tall, or maybe a high performance basketball player may be able to do it. You dont need to jump from the top of a building to know thats impossible you reach the ground alive without a parachute, you dont need to actually eat shitt to know that probably you wont be able to eat it because it tastes like shitt and so on...

really...

Im just trying to understand somethings here, not trying to underestimate anybody's modding ability. Please dont be aggressive with me. English its not my native language, so i have a har time trying to express in the right way, so i may sometimes sound a unpolite or something like that, but im really trying not to, please dont take me wrong.

Aradan, im running some tests here and as soon as i'm over with it i'll come back here and asnwer your post, thank you for your consideration in answering me.

[webba84]

Guedes, while Stark was pretty blunt with you I don't think he said anything that was a personal attack and you might want to consider how your own comments are coming across as well.

More or less straight out telling the one person who probably knows more about RTW modding than anyone else right now that some quick research and a great deal of confidence in your own logic means you know things RTW can do that he doesn't, well, its not exactly tactful, is it?

Which is not to say that enthusiastically wanting to help is bad, but a little more appreciation of what you don't know (and trust me, what a person doesn't know is invariably a much, much greater amount than they think it is) might help to make your suggestions a little less insulting (if you are Stark1) or amusing (if you are me )

But yes, thanking Aradan was well done, he is showing incredible patience and restraint. (though he usually does)

[Stark1]

First of all, i said i know its possible, not OBVIOUSLY possible, i clearly stated that may not be an easy task to do.

Also, your argument is pretty dumb really (im not trying to insult you, please dont take me wrong), you dont need to be able to jump 7 feet tall to know that is possible or no to a normal human like you jump 7 feet tall, or maybe a high performance basketball player may be able to do it. You dont need to jump from the top of a building to know thats impossible you reach the ground alive without a parachute, you dont need to actually eat shitt to know that probably you wont be able to eat it because it tastes like shitt and so on...

really...

Im just trying to understand somethings here, not trying to underestimate anybody's modding ability. Please dont be aggressive with me. English its not my native language, so i have a har time trying to express in the right way, so i may sometimes sound a unpolite or something like that, but im really trying not to, please dont take me wrong.

Aradan, im running some tests here and as soon as i'm over with it i'll come back here and asnwer your post, thank you for your consideration in answering me.

You're right, I was being a bit snarky. I apologize.

My point remains though. Aradan is extremely experienced with RTW engine and has so far accomplished things with it that I've never thought possible and haven't seen in any other RTW mod. He (and the rest of FATW team) is the wrong guy to tell something should be possible just by looking at vanilla RTW campaign. Try checking around other threads for some Dominion of Men features, you should be pleasently surprised.

[Guedes]

More or less straight out telling the one person who probably knows more about RTW modding than anyone else right now that some quick research and a great deal of confidence in your own logic means you know things RTW can do that he doesn't, well, its not exactly tactful, is it?

Which is not to say that enthusiastically wanting to help is bad, but a little more appreciation of what you don't know (and trust me, what a person doesn't know is invariably a much, much greater amount than they think it is) might help to make your suggestions a little less insulting (if you are Stark1) or amusing (if you are me )

But yes, thanking Aradan was well done, he is showing incredible patience and restraint. (though he usually does)

The point is i think Aradan misunderstood me, again, i'm not trying to insult anyone here or be arrogant/rude/impolite, but what i purposed is doable, seriously, and i did it with almost no effort (i will show is this post), thats why i'm saying i think he misunderstood me. But yes, i know i may being a little impolite/rude, thing is the language is a big obstacle to me, while i understand and comprehend English just fine, i have some issues with writing and expressing myself in the right way, hope you guys understand.

You're right, I was being a bit snarky. I apologize.

My point remains though. Aradan is extremely experienced with RTW engine and has so far accomplished things with it that I've never thought possible and haven't seen in any other RTW mod. He (and the rest of FATW team) is the wrong guy to tell something should be possible just by looking at vanilla RTW campaign. Try checking around other threads for some Dominion of Men features, you should be pleasently surprised.

@ Guedes: Your assumption that because something exists in vanilla can also exist in a mod under different circumstances is simply wrong.

For example, permanent alliance in vanilla works through the combination of several factors: the superfaction feature, the roman culture, specific placement/order of factions in descr_sm_factions. It also involves certain hardcoded mechanics, such as complete inability to attack your ally, forced sharing of line of sight, the involvement of a non-playable faction, etc. Assuming one knows exactly what the conditions are for the activation of a permanent-alliance and how exactly to manipulate it to apply to non-roman factions, etc, what if there is no empty faction slot for the non-playable faction? And if there's no room and you decide to make that faction playable, do you know what side-effects being a superfaction has and if you'd be willing to accept them gameplay-wise? And so on.

Another example is your reference to the rebels. The "slave" faction has several hardcoded (that is, tied to their internal name, "slave", which you cannot assign to any other faction) unique characteristics, one of which being lack of diplomacy. Which is why once they are war with someone (they do not automatically start at war with anyone, it has to be either set in descr_strat or initiated by another faction), they cannot be at peace.

That said, assuming both options (permanent peace and permanent war) are possible, how can you know if they can work together? Several features in RTW are incompatible (eg superfactions cannot form hordes, superfactions and hording being mechanics that individually work just fine). And how can you know if you can have multiple instances of a mechanic without any unacceptable hitches (ie multiple permanent alliance groups result in shared line of sight for *all* factions involved in *any* such group)?

What I'm saying is, do not assume that because something exists in vanilla, its general principle can be implemented in a mod just like that. The game was not coded with such flexibility in mind.

Ok, now i know for certain you misunderstood me, or better put, i expressed myself wrong. You see, what i meant with "when i see that something works in vanilla i know it can work in a mod version" i'm not specifically saying that if a specific mechanic that exist in vanilla and work in a specific way can be modded to work in a mod version but in another slightly different specific way....

To clarify with your example, you said that its impossible exist a superfaction horde. Thats a perfect example; you see, there is no superfaction hordes in the vanilla version of the game, although they exist separately i'm not inferring they can exist together in a mod version... but for sure they can exist separately because they do in vanilla! That's what i'm talking about when i say "if something works in vanilla it should work in a mod version"; not that a superfaction horde should exist, but a horde only faction should, and a superfaction only should too. Get it?

Speaking about superfaction, the moment i saw the descr_strat file i knew that the permanent alliance you apparently made has something to do with the superfaction feature.

But now lets talk about the real deal. Like i explained above, when i talked about the rebels faction in vanilla, i was not referring to make a normal faction, like the RK and adunabar work exactly like a rebel faction, but to simply emulate the non-diplomatic stance like a rebel faction because you are right when you say that the rebels have unique features in this game, but the lack of diplomacy isnt a unique rebel feature (at least, not totally) in the sense that the main reason why rebels cant do diplomatic deals (like alliances, trade rights, etc) its because they dont have diplomats in the first place. This is so true that i remember in the past that there was a bug that i dont know if they fixed or not, but whatever, which when a determined faction was eliminated from the game, their diplomats became rebels and the player could interact with them to sign a ceasefire, trade rights and alliances with the rebel factions (and if i'm not mistaken there are mods that allow the player to conduct diplomacy with the rebels).

In short; you said that its hard to bend the games rules, i dont want to bend them, on the contrary, i want them to work specific as designed, only in my benefit! Now, the rebels factions cant sign ceasefire because they dont have diplomats, so it should be impossible to normal factions sign a ceasefire when they dont have access to diplomats too (ie if it works in vanilla should work in a mod version, thats the game rule after all doesnt it?). Thats why i said that it bothers me when you said it was impossible to do it.

So, after my researches and a little meddling with the files i did those tweaks without too many effort. What i simply did was to remove the ability to RK and Adunabar recruit diplomats in the governors building at the export_descr_buildings file and voilla! I have my two "rebel" factions which cant perform any diplomacy whatsoever between them, but more importantly, cant sign a ceasefire and will fight each other to the end! see:



Now, i had to change the descr_strat file too to eliminate the diplomats that RK and adunabar had in the beginning of the game, the RK's ones i just sub for +1 assassin and spy, the adunabar ones i just deleted since adunabar already has a lot of agents anyways:



On another words i crippled the diplomatic aspect of RK and adunabar AI, and that have few side effects with their relationships with other faction too, for example, since RK and rohan are set to be in an alliance since the beginning of the game, that wont affect their diplomatic balance (and they have trade rights too). From my experience, harad will send their diplomat to form an alliance with adunabar as soon as possible too, or you can just set an alliance between them in the descr_strat file if you want. Also, adunabar and RK still have the option to declare war in any other faction of the game because that is the only diplomatic activity in this game that dont requires a diplomat and can get a ceasefire with anyone too but themselves, but it has to be asked through an enemy faction diplomat. Anyways, its not like RTW AI do many diplomatics deals after war besides ceasefire/alliance/trade rights, and that solves the problem with RK and Adunabar team up every game against rohan and/or harad. Now, RK still can declare war on rohan, but its way more rare, almost impossible if the player isnt rohan, because since it cant declare ceasefire with adunabar and probably will be always at war with dunland and harad too, the AI takes that in consideration before going in a war against another faction, specially and allied one. I think it will only declare war to rohan if rohan is the human faction playing on very hard (than every faction will declare war on you anyways).

Now, somebody could want to go balls deep with this and remove diplomats for all factions to ensure that their diplomatic stances stay as they are in the beginning of the game, or just being able to the human player faction to recruit diplomats. I dont know if this can be done automatically thought. I know that can be used restrictions for recrutable units in the export_descr_buildings file but i dont know if exist a restriction only for human player faction (i never modded RTW before, i'm used to mod just games from paradox games, ck2 specially), but if it exist it can be done.

Now Aradan, about that weights in the core attitudes that i mentioned to you earlier, i finished those tests and.... they are inconclusive . I created a ghost faction just to observe the AI behavior with -600 and 0 weights for allies and i couldnt notice any significative changes. Indeed, the AI seems to take in consideration a myriad of factors in its diplomatic behavior besides those weights. However, i did few tests and you are probably right if you did a lot of them and end up with the conclusion that -600 works as intended. even so, i still maintained 0 for allies instead simply because i'm a little stubborn and because i think that the western-eastern roman AI alliance works so well in the vanilla version with 0 weight (they almost never attack each other even if they share a lot of borders).

Now, another tweak that i made that improved significantly the TNS campaign experience for me, and that i already mentioned with you Aradan in the another tread, was the movement points for units. As I said to you, the units in TNS, as in vanilla, moves creepily slow for my taste. So i increased the mov. points in the descr_character file from 80 (= to vanilla) to..... 350!

I did tha for gameplay and realistic/lores purposes and i highly recommend that you do that for the next versions of the mod (maybe not 350, but surely not just 80). Gameplay wise its way better, the games gets way more dynamic and even seems to improve AI behavior a little bit because frequently the AI left an obviously better target for a worse one just because the better one is some tiles away and would require +1 turn to the AI army reach there, also it works way better and realistic with your supply trait system (that i already had complained in the other thread). For the lore purposes, well i will admit i'm not a lore expert, but i did read almost all tolkien books (LOTR, hobbit and silmarillion) and watched the movies and i can state pretty accurately (and some lore expert would probably back me up here) that the actual movement points in the game dont reflect what it would be in reality.... see, bilbo and the dwarfs took less than 6 months (i think it was 5) to travel from the shire (which is east from the game map border) to esgaroth (which stays pretty much in the same longitude of minas morgul, seeing from the lotr map), so how can an agent unit took dozens of years in the game to do a shorten trajectory between the dunland most western settlement to minas morgul? Also, how can gandalf have traveled pretty much all rohan in TTT back and forth (and back accompanying an army of rohirims) in only 5 days in the books (granted, he was with a fuc***ng fast horse scadufax, even so) and a rohan army take a year just to go from edoras to the northern rohan settlement? Seriously, with 350 movement points things get way more real and lore-accurate, you may want to accurate this for more or less, but certainly more than 80 from vanilla!

Well.... that was a long post, i will excuse myself for eventual (and almost sure) English language errors and if i was impolite/rude with someone i really excuse myself, it wasnt my purpose believe it, like i already said i have some difficulties for expressing myself, hope we can continue our talk, best regard to everyone.

[Aradan]

Well, sorry, but I don't see how removing diplomats from factions solves the problem. It actually just replaces it with another (bigger) one. What you're suggesting is that RK and Adunabar lose their diplomats and are therefore eternally locked in the same diplomatic status that they begin with with every other faction of the game. They can't ask for trade rights from any other faction, they can't get a ceasefire, etc. All they can do is wait for other factions to initiate diplomacy. That is extremely bad for gameplay in my opinion and falls under the category of a "feature" that isn't worth its gameplay-price.


WRT distances and movement-speed. It's not as simple as that. You can't have units able to move at realistic speeds, because this is a turn-based game. Even if it's inaccurate, the movement speed has to relate to the size of the map, not its scale. For example, the AI cannot really "see" and plan beyond the provinces on its borders. So it tends to leave interior settlements lightly guarded and move armies to the borders. If you have a large movement speed, the AI can simply rush forward, ignore the AI (which cannot respond, it being a turn-based game) and capture settlements easily. And so on. Gameplay > realism in this case.

[webba84]

If it is any consolation Guedes, in the currently in-development version of the mod (DOM) I have never seen RK and Adun sign a ceasefire, and the only real chance of that happening is if one of them gets as close to annihilated as makes no difference.

So the problem is already solved, provided you are willing to wait for the release at the end of this year.

[Elphir of Dol Amroth]

From a lore perspective would being eternal enemies be that good of a situation anyway? Sure, a fully cultic Adunabar with lots of Orc units, Wargs, Trolls, etc. should be an eternal rival of the RK, but there is also the possibility of a less evil Adunabar, which focus more on its Dunedain heritage and perhaps even follow the men of the west religion again.. In the New Shadow (not sure how things will be in DOM) the leader of Adunabar is the king's own brother, his sons are nephews to the king of the RK. Surely there is the possibility of reconciliation? Arthedain and Cardolan eventually worked together against Angmar and Rhudaur as well for example.

[Guedes]

Well, sorry, but I don't see how removing diplomats from factions solves the problem.

Well it isnt obvious if the RK and Adunabar cant sign a ceasefire than the problem is solved! Thats what i wanted since the beginning in the first place.

It actually just replaces it with another (bigger) one. What you're suggesting is that RK and Adunabar lose their diplomats and are therefore eternally locked in the same diplomatic status that they begin with with every other faction of the game. They can't ask for trade rights from any other faction, they can't get a ceasefire, etc. All they can do is wait for other factions to initiate diplomacy. That is extremely bad for gameplay in my opinion and falls under the category of a "feature" that isn't worth its gameplay-price.

For me thats not a bigger problem. At least not for RK, like i already said, because rk will probably maintain its alliance with rohan (and therefore trade rights too) for the rest of the game, and a permanent war with adunabar, it still can get a ceasefire with the other factions, but they have to ask it for the RK, which for me is lore wise accurate too, i dont see this prejudicially game wise, thats exactly the result that i wanted.

Now, for adunabar, from my expeience, like i already said too, it will get alliance and trade rights with harad.

And, again, its not like the AI do that much diplo in this game anyways besides alliance/trade rights/ceasefire. That could be a major problem if there were more factions in TNS, but only if the ones there is now, FOR ME its the perfect result because i can now enjoy an TNS game which actual feels like a war between the good guys vs the bad guys!!!!

WRT distances and movement-speed. It's not as simple as that. You can't have units able to move at realistic speeds, because this is a turn-based game. Even if it's inaccurate, the movement speed has to relate to the size of the map, not its scale. For example, the AI cannot really "see" and plan beyond the provinces on its borders. So it tends to leave interior settlements lightly guarded and move armies to the borders. If you have a large movement speed, the AI can simply rush forward, ignore the AI (which cannot respond, it being a turn-based game) and capture settlements easily. And so on. Gameplay > realism in this case.

You are talking about the player rush forward not the AI, the Ai will always attack the border provinces, no matter what.

Anyways, this is an AI flaw and the player can spoil it with or without increased mov points. In fact, like i said, it helps the AI a lot because it will respond when you attack an undefended settlement in the middle of their territory, but frequently it will take some turns just to retreat its main army and attack you, by than you probably got that settlement anyways. With a lot of mov. points the ai respond immediately in the next turn sending its army to attack your besieging army, since you need at least one turn to assault the settlement it means that the AI have a greatly improved capability to defend its inner territories.

Really, you will see that the gameplay its improved, even for the AI, the majority of mods that i've player thus far in RTW has improved mov.points too and it seems just to add for the gameplay experience (and its realistic), games get much more dynamic. Well, now that i learned how to do it i will always improve mov. points in my campaigns anyways.

If it is any consolation Guedes, in the currently in-development version of the mod (DOM) I have never seen RK and Adun sign a ceasefire, and the only real chance of that happening is if one of them gets as close to annihilated as makes no difference.

So the problem is already solved, provided you are willing to wait for the release at the end of this year.

great work than!

From a lore perspective would being eternal enemies be that good of a situation anyway? Sure, a fully cultic Adunabar with lots of Orc units, Wargs, Trolls, etc. should be an eternal rival of the RK, but there is also the possibility of a less evil Adunabar, which focus more on its Dunedain heritage and perhaps even follow the men of the west religion again.. In the New Shadow (not sure how things will be in DOM) the leader of Adunabar is the king's own brother, his sons are nephews to the king of the RK. Surely there is the possibility of reconciliation? Arthedain and Cardolan eventually worked together against Angmar and Rhudaur as well for example.

You would be right if that actually happens ingame. What always seems to happen is that RK and adunabar get alliance and adunabar will still spams orcs. In fact, it will always spam orcs in my experience, its just a matter of time. So yeah, its like sauron allying with gondor to fight rohan.... every game!

[Aradan]

What can I say... If the solution, if you want to call it that, of removing the RK/Adunabar diplomats satisfies you, good for you and glad you can enjoy the mod in the way you like. But it's not something we are going to be implementing in the mod, since we obviously have different criteria of what constitutes a problem. That's all I'm saying.

As for the movement points, I never said an increase is bad. But 350 is way over the top (we have made tests). That said, you're obviously free to do whatever you like with your own files. If you are able to edit the mod yourself to achieve the gameplay you like, props to you...

[Nehcrum]

Ignoring a lot of what has already been said, but whatever.

The problem that you are having is related to the AI, and is as far as I know hardcoded and can't be changed.
Namely, "Total War", which essentially means the player vs the AI.....and the AI is all of the factions.

The AI factions will only fight with each other if they don't share a border with you.

If you play as Rohan, then Adunabar will fight with you, and will actually try to fight you more than the much closer and much more threatening RK.
But if you take their settlement (Calenhad?), then you will suddenly share a border with RK.
Which means RK will now focus on the player (you) and stop fighting with Adunabar. And Adunabar will of course also focus on you, since they share a border with you.

All a peace agreement between them will do is essentially only stop them from fighting with each other if their armies sent against you should happen to meet.



And the Diplomatic AI seems to have no connection with the strategic AI, and diplomatic deals are rather useless (except for trade agreements, which have an actual effect) and doesn't seem to affect the AIs behaviour in any way.

I turn off the recruitment of diplomats and eliminate all diplomats that factions have from the start in my games, since the only thing they are good for are as spies, sent into enemy territory to check garrisons. And that's pretty much the only thing the AI uses them as.
Fact is, I tend to turn off all agents, diplomats, spies and assassins alike, forcing the AI to concentrate on making military units instead. I actually find that to be more challenging.


But this tendency of the AI to gang up on you is annoying, but knowing a bit about of the AI works means you can abuse it a bit.
I've said this about playing as Dunland, that you don't want to take the rebel settlement to the south, because that will give you a border with RK and you will have to suffer constant attacks from them. If you instead just a post a force there to stop RKs attempts to take the rebel settlement, then you'll have no problem with RK starting to ignore Adunabar in the east and concentrate on sending forces against you.
This also means that other factions will become stronger as they move towards you, taking settlements from the AI faction that borders you (that is concentrating all his efforts on you and basically ignore other enemies even when they are eating them up from the other side) and building up their economy and forces pretty much unmolested.


Different relations points don't seem to do very much to change these behaviours, and tend to be mostly about how the AI will ally with other AI factions against AI factions.
Vs the player, everyone is constantly on max hatred towards you.

Try playing as Dunland or Harad, and RK and Rohan will likely never attack each other. And RK and Adunabar will fight each other and not make peace. But only as long as the player has no provinces bordering theirs.

[Wambat]

An idea: Might it be possible to set AI campaign objectives for both RK and Adunabar so that they both really jones for Minas Tirith as an objective and will not stop until that city is in their possession? This seems like something that might keep them at each other's throats throughout the campaign.