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Thread: Ben Affleck Versus Bill Maher and Sam Harris

  1. #81

    Default Re: Ben Affleck Versus Bill Maher and Sam Harris

    Quote Originally Posted by Manco View Post
    to know (hypothetically) the true version of Islam, as followed by Mohammed and his contemporaries, and to see how it differs from modern reality is to basically be able to counter very large segments of that faith in modern times.
    So this may be interesting from a historical perspective (methodological naturalism), but it's not really a useful rhetorical device in engaging with anyone who accepts the basic premise of Islam - that the Quran constitutes divine revelation. If God exists outside of time, the original cultural context of the revelation and its first interpretation are not the end all, because certainly humans could have misunderstood the message and warped it through the lens of their culture. For the same reason, believers of each interpretation are likely to see other interpretations as mistaken. I don't think you can really use that to demonstrate to a Muslim that their beliefs are absurd, because they don't share your underlying assumptions about the nature of existence. The reality is that there are many interpretations of Islam. Religion is slippery that way in that you don't get to define the criteria on which others base their beliefs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  2. #82
    Cyrene's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Ben Affleck Versus Bill Maher and Sam Harris

    in your post you raised the same points as Jockmcplop, my answer to him was also to your post, my apologies nevertheless.


    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    Actually you can look for prevalent attitudes within a population and yes you can blame that portion of the population because as Sam Harris says, based on texts that they themselves quote (and not every muslim relies soley on the Qu'ran and even those that do don't use YOUR interpretations) they create a plausible Islam that is terrible for women.

    that's why i asked for statistics, we can't really know what attitude is prevalent without them, it's not true that all the people in the middle east hit their wives and i don't even think they are the majority in some places, so i will repeat again, those who hit their wives aren't doing it because they find it in the Qur'an , it is foolish to see it that way, one then can't explain why in almost every place in the world, there are people who do not only beat their wives, even murder them in some cases.


    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    lets look at the state laws which make them equivalent to slaves or cattle in some countries. Lets look at opinion polls from the regions and gather data. So yeah we can gain some kind of picture.

    we can start by giving examples.


    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    I really don't get this leaping to defence of unplausible ignorance just because they are muslim. I'm English and I've been the first to question the UK way, I like Buddhism and I look to the god damned awful actions in Sri Lanka and Tibet and examine what it is in the practice that allows the semi slavery and voodoo frankly odd often dangerous beliefs to become common place.

    well i don't remember defending any of those who beat the hell out of their wives nor those who don't give them the right to drive.



    i'd like to add that Polygamy is not required to be a muslim, it is even mentioned once in the Qur'an:

    " Marry women of your choice , two, three, or four, but if you fear you cannot deal with them justly, then Only one " {4:3}

    one has to ask, why is it in the Qur'an? that this verse was revealed in Medina after the battle of Uhud ( where the Muslims lost to Pagans ) The Muslim men before that battle were approximately 700. after it there were many dead, This loss had left so many Muslim women Widows, and Not able to get married if they were single, To make matters even worse, the Muslims had faced yet another battle against the Pagans in Mecca and its neighboring tribes who wanted to attack the Muslims in Medina, and by the Jews inside the city who cooperated with the besiegers.

    These continuous battles were very costly in terms of men's lives. The women had to be taken care of one way or another. For this reason, we find it in the Qur'an, to solve the social problems that the Muslims were facing. That is why at the very beginning of 4:3 we see it setting a conditional clause for Orphans "If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans...(4:3)." , to increase the number of the Muslims by allowing the men to marry multiple wives (preferably from the grown Orphans at that time), up to four wives. and to prevent major sins such as illegal sex and prostitution.

  3. #83
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Ben Affleck Versus Bill Maher and Sam Harris

    You want statistics on domestic abuse from countries where it is LEGAL so how on earth do you think to get them when they can't be recorded?

    How about the fact that it is legal, there is an example for you. That women can't travel without permission or even leave the house. But you think they'll take accurate reports of domestic abuse, which isn't even abuse because it is legal.

    On to the rest so you freely admit that polygamy is justified and legal based on the Qu'ran because as they say, so long as you can deal with them justly. Now personally I don't care if women want to enter into a polygamous marriage but in cultures of arranged and forced marriage it isn't a choice. And if a woman wanted 5 husbands? Lets see that play out then I'd shut up.

    And you haven't answered the fact that many people are creating plausible versions of Islam which to them is much much more than just the Qu'ran and that is their true Islam. Their interpretations are the true ones and are based on their scripture. They find reasons for beating wives, multiple wives, burqa and all of it contained within the body of religious texts that go into making up Islam.

    This hadith but not that hadith, only the Qu'ran but not for them. It turns out that religion which is always subjective but with some blanket faith in its subjective objectivity will always lend itself to at least a portion of it being adopted in an extreme fashion especially when it can be used to create power and dominance over groups of people. This is why the Abrahamic faiths in particular are terrible things, bad for society unless shackled and dominated by modern secular governments and humanist values. Thank god we've kicked Christianity to bits and sat it in the corner and over time they are learning they have to accept all the things previously they would attempt to hurt people for.

  4. #84

    Default Re: Ben Affleck Versus Bill Maher and Sam Harris



    and you haven't answered the fact that many people are creating plausible versions of Islam which to them is much much more than just the Qu'ran and that is their true Islam.
    We can pin alot of things on religion and islam and what not, but alot of these things, come from cultural backgrounds and dynamics, linked or not to it. The more modern conflict versus western modern society, imo is more of a socialogic and in some measure cultural nature then actualy a religious one.
    For instance there is a perception that Europe is importing jihadists, when its actualy the other way arround more and more, religion happens to be a very easy vessel, and vehicle to this phenomena, as historicaly has been often the case. Either materialistic, and rethoricaly.
    Last edited by Knight of Heaven; October 11, 2014 at 07:53 PM.

  5. #85
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Ben Affleck Versus Bill Maher and Sam Harris

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight of Heaven View Post



    We can pin alot of things on religion and islam and what not, but alot of these things, come from cultural backgrounds and dynamics, linked or not to it. The more modern conflict versus western modern society, imo is more of a socialogic and in some measure cultural nature then actualy a religious one.
    For instance there is a perception that Europe is importing jihadists, when its actualy the other way arround more and more, religion happens to be a very easy vessel, and vehicle to this phenomena, as historicaly has been often the case. Either materialistic, and rethoricaly.
    You have the typical liberal excuse that divorces religion from culture and its such an ignorant position I don't know what to do with it.

    Do you want a cookie?

  6. #86

    Default Re: Ben Affleck Versus Bill Maher and Sam Harris

    You have the typical liberal excuse that divorces religion from culture and its such an ignorant position I don't know what to do with it.
    Its not an excuse its a fact, that is why islam isnt the same thing every where, the same way christianity isnt the same thing everywhere, the kurds have a different culture and traditions, then the arabs for instance, and so on and so on, , it's ing elementar.
    What is born of ignorance is making assumption that religion came first, and not the bad treatment of women, the stonings, the genital mutilation and all that barbaric things, that are thousands of years older then islam itself, Religion can be a vehicle for this things or not as its part of ones culture, they might not be divorced, but they might not mean the same thing, as not every muslim as the exact same behavior, this is ing basic, to someone with a enough level of intelligence, thinking otherwise, is actualy ing insulting to ones intelectuality.
    Chatolicism, or christianity today is very different then it was in the 14th century, otherwise, we would still have burning of witches, and jews in Iberia. So yeah blame it on religion, or blame it on what the people make of it at any given time, your choice.
    But the funny side is, you know, you are on the right track, when some one decides it on their own acord to label you right from the start.
    If it is liberal or not, it is irrelevant, and i dont care, because its the reasonable way to look at it.
    Cookie please?
    Last edited by Knight of Heaven; October 12, 2014 at 12:47 AM.

  7. #87
    ShockBlast's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Ben Affleck Versus Bill Maher and Sam Harris

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight of Heaven View Post
    Its not an excuse its a fact, that is why islam isnt the same thing every where, the same way christianity isnt the same thing everywhere, the kurds have a different culture and traditions, then the arabs for instance, and so on and so on, , it's ing elementar.
    What is born of ignorance is making assumption that religion came first, and not the bad treatment of women, the stonings, the genital mutilation and all that barbaric things, that are thousands of years older then islam itself, Religion can be a vehicle for this things or not as its part of ones culture, they might not be divorced, but they might not mean the same thing, as not every muslim as the exact same behavior, this is ing basic, to someone with a enough level of intelligence, thinking otherwise, is actualy ing insulting to ones intelectuality.
    Chatolicism, or christianity today is very different then it was in the 14th century, otherwise, we would still have burning of witches, and jews in Iberia. So yeah blame it on religion, or blame it on what the people make of it at any given time, your choice.
    But the funny side is, you know, you are on the right track, when some one decides it on their own acord to label you right from the start.
    If it is liberal or not, it is irrelevant, and i dont care, because its the reasonable way to look at it.
    Cookie please?
    Religion is just some cultural habits linked to an imaginary friend that will me you burn in hell if you don`t follow them.

    This divorce, as Danny says, should not be made, yes culture advances but religion is usually linked to some older cultural habits thus it comes into conflict with the new culture.

    No cookie for you.

  8. #88
    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: Ben Affleck Versus Bill Maher and Sam Harris

    Two Zionist jews beating on Islam and a liberal Catholic from Boston angrily defends muslims. This is why i love America.




  9. #89
    Cyrene's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Ben Affleck Versus Bill Maher and Sam Harris

    i'd like Denny Crane to quote the Qur'an or Hadiths allowing Forced Marriage, since Islam is a very terrible religion according to you it shouldn't be that hard for you to find it, i think i've made this easy enough for you, no? i can show you where the Qur'an and hadiths prohibit forced marriage on the other hand, oh and you still didn't provide any examples of Countries that treat women as cattle, and point out the laws that you think are degrading women, a source along with them would be nice.

    i take it that you didn't read my post carefully, if at all, so i'll repeat once again, the battles that the muslims fought were very costly in terms of men, many muslim women after the battles were widowed or orphaned, this was to be taken care of, it was the lack of men, not women, that this verse was revealed, if the case was women then it'd be them who can marry four men, assuming that Polygamy in Islam is only there to satisfy men's pleasures is absurd.

    the lack of a united muslim authority or nation allows anyone to interpret anything in the Qur'an as he wishes, this can be solved be pointing out the flaws in interpretations that go against what the Qur'an says ( i.e forced marriage )
    that is, if those you are debating with are willing to know what the Qur'an really says and are willing to discuss, terrorist organizations like the IS are not willing and simply want to enforce their interpretations, therefore they must be dealt with by force, the Wahhabi, and extreme interpretations in general will fall like dominoes when it comes to debating.

    the author of the Qur'an and Islam, regardless of whom he is, clearly did not want the Muslims to have multiple high authorities:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    {Hold fast to God's rope all together; do not split into factions. Remember God's favor to you: you were enemies and then God brought your hearts together and you became brothers by God's grace; you were about to fall into a pit of Fire and God saved you from it, in this way God makes His revelations clear to you so that you may be rightly guided. Be a community that calls for what is good, urges what is right, and forbids what is wrong: those who do this are the successful ones. Do not be like those who, after they have been given clear revelation, split into factions and fall into disputes: a terrible punishment awaits such people} {3:103-110}
    Last edited by Cyrene; October 12, 2014 at 07:31 AM.

  10. #90

    Default Re: Ben Affleck Versus Bill Maher and Sam Harris

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrene View Post
    i'd like Denny Crane to quote the Qur'an or Hadiths allowing Forced Marriage, since Islam is a very terrible religion according to you it shouldn't be that hard for you to find it, i think i've made this easy enough for you, no? i can show you where the Qur'an and hadiths prohibit forced marriage on the other hand, oh and you still didn't provide any examples of Countries that treat women as cattle, and point out the laws that you think are degrading women, a source along with them would be nice.

    i take it that you didn't read my post carefully, if at all, so i'll repeat once again, the battles that the muslims fought were very costly in terms of men, many muslim women after the battles were widowed or orphaned, this was to be taken care of, it was the lack of men, not women, that this verse was revealed, if the case was women then it'd be them who can marry four men, assuming that Polygamy in Islam is only there to satisfy men's pleasures is absurd.

    the lack of a united muslim authority or nation allows anyone to interpret anything in the Qur'an as he wishes, this can be solved be pointing out the flaws in interpretations that go against what the Qur'an says ( i.e forced marriage )
    that is, if those you are debating with are willing to know what the Qur'an really says and are willing to discuss, terrorist organizations like the IS are not willing and simply want to enforce their interpretations, therefore they must be dealt with by force, the Wahhabi, and extreme interpretations in general will fall like dominoes when it comes to debating.

    the author of the Qur'an and Islam, regardless of whom he is, clearly did not want the Muslims to have multiple high authorities:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    {Hold fast to God's rope all together; do not split into factions. Remember God's favor to you: you were enemies and then God brought your hearts together and you became brothers by God's grace; you were about to fall into a pit of Fire and God saved you from it, in this way God makes His revelations clear to you so that you may be rightly guided. Be a community that calls for what is good, urges what is right, and forbids what is wrong: those who do this are the successful ones. Do not be like those who, after they have been given clear revelation, split into factions and fall into disputes: a terrible punishment awaits such people} {3:103-110}

    I agree with alot of what you say but I don't think the problem will go away simply by using force. Killing people who believe something doesn't kill the belief.

  11. #91

    Default Re: Ben Affleck Versus Bill Maher and Sam Harris

    Quote Originally Posted by jockmcplop View Post
    Killing people who believe something doesn't kill the belief.
    Actually it does.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  12. #92

    Default Re: Ben Affleck Versus Bill Maher and Sam Harris

    Liberals who start discussing an issue by claiming that a certain particular case is true and not up to debate. How are they liberals again? That's what the exchange made me think. Ben Affleck couldn't really say something breathtaking but his opposition is welcomed.
    The Armenian Issue

  13. #93
    clone's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Ben Affleck Versus Bill Maher and Sam Harris

    http://quran.com/9/5
    And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
    Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. According to this verse, they are to be violently subjugated, with the sole justification being their religious status. This was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.
    Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

    trully a religion of peace.i would like to see ben afleks oppinion about these
    Last edited by clone; October 12, 2014 at 02:54 PM.
    When a nation forgets her skill in war, when her religion becomes a mockery, when the whole nation becomes a nation of money-grabbers, then the wild tribes, the barbarians drive in... Who will our invaders be? From whence will they come?”
    Robert E. Howard



  14. #94
    Cyrene's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Ben Affleck Versus Bill Maher and Sam Harris

    *Ben Affleck

    *Truly

    *Opinion

    we're off to a bad start already.

    unless i get permission from Papay i won't help to derail this thread any further.
    Last edited by Cyrene; October 12, 2014 at 03:53 PM.

  15. #95
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Ben Affleck Versus Bill Maher and Sam Harris

    Quote Originally Posted by Mangalore View Post
    This is a logic fail. The same bible justified genocide and bigotry for 1000 years, now is suddenly flawless. Apparently something else caused this. It certainly wasn't the bible. It was applying humanist and secular concepts to its teaching thus removing the nasty interpretations. This all an outside force.

    Most people who claim to be Christian don't even bother to read the bible anymore and simply stick to these humanist ideas intermingled with general concepts of the bible to create their worldview and it's not their first source to resolve moral dilemmas.

    In short: Western culture changed which changed how the bible and religion was viewed and thus interpreted.
    I never said the Bible is flawless. The fact that you can interpret it in so many ways is itself a major flaw. But yes something did change. The social structure changed and the church lost power. Let's not forget that the bible was the exact same in Eastern Europe yet you hear of almost no religion fueled persecutions, no crusades, no inquisitions. Do you know why? Not because the people were better, or the clergymen more virtuous, but because the structure required for people to easily use Christianity for political purposes never existed there. Once those structures (the power of the papacy) started weakening in the west people started looking for other reasons to kill each other, like "ethnicity", "revolution", "counter-revolution".

    Humanist and secular concepts did diddly squat in that regard. Secularism is very young, younger than some of the changes you attribute to its influence and humanism was more or less a failure as a philosophy.


    Fun fact: humanism in all its glory is a copy-paste of medieval Islam with Christian concepts mixed in.


    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Ahaha


    Wait, are you serious?
    I would like to know why you think I'm wrong.
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; October 12, 2014 at 04:59 PM.
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  16. #96

    Default Re: Ben Affleck Versus Bill Maher and Sam Harris

    Religion is just some cultural habits linked to an imaginary friend that will me you burn in hell if you don`t follow them.

    This divorce, as Danny says, should not be made, yes culture advances but religion is usually linked to some older cultural habits thus it comes into conflict with the new culture.

    No cookie for you.
    Do you even understood what i wrote? Culture advances and so does religion. As religion itself is part of culture.
    What we got in islamic world by far was a stagnation of culture due to historic reasons, that are very vast for me to enumerate here. But this is why Cultural costums and Religion are often hard to seperate, as the west hs being doing this for centuries, while the islamic world has not.

    This divorce needs to be made, especialy when islam its no all alike, just like christianity its not all alike culturaly speaking.
    So yes you need to differenciate it.
    Western culture changed which changed how the bible and religion was viewed and thus interpreted.
    Precisely.
    Last edited by Knight of Heaven; October 12, 2014 at 10:51 PM.

  17. #97

    Default Re: Ben Affleck Versus Bill Maher and Sam Harris

    Here's a little diddy CNN did on the story, if you want to hear a sane person's opinion on the matter give it a watch.


    Islam is not a problem, the problem is people, the problem is the social infrastructure of many of the Middle Eastern countries. It wasn't long ago Western Europe had autocratic dictators, we can thanks WW2 for fixing that. A few hundreds years ago, and even as recently as The Troubles, Christians killed Christians in Holy War, there are every Christian terrorist groups in Africa. The Middle East, some of the Central Asian countries and alot of Africa(not generalizing, just don't feel like typing out about 40 country names) are far behind the West(and Far-East) in terms of social development and that's the problem. The problem is also that we in the West do not collectively understand their culture.

    Look, in the 40's during WW2, newspapers printed vulgar, racist, threatening propaganda and cartoons in newspapers. Radio broadcast advocated the killing of Germans and Japanese, the likes of which today would cause a complete uproar would not be tolerated in the least. That's how much our culture has changed in the last 75 years, the simple fact of the matter is the countries we are always talking about just are not there yet. Frankly the change is happening, it may go on for another 10-20 years and cost millions of lives but they will change. Unfortunately by then the Western World may be going through more changes further alienating ourselves from parts of the world who are not as advanced as we are.
    Last edited by Emperor Hantscher; October 13, 2014 at 12:48 AM.

  18. #98
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Ben Affleck Versus Bill Maher and Sam Harris

    Quote Originally Posted by ShockBlast View Post
    an imaginary friend that will me you burn in hell if you don`t follow them.
    Wrong
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  19. #99

    Default Re: Ben Affleck Versus Bill Maher and Sam Harris

    Its incredibly shocking to me how far people will stray from basic common sense when trying to defend religious ideas. Its amazing really. I have never heard Harris, Maher or anyone else deny that social issues are in play here. Of course there are social problems that lead to things like war. Of course there are cultural differences that have a massive effect on people.
    No-one is trying to deny that there is a complex political situation, and that the causes of the current strife are numerous and difficult.

    At the same time lets look at the mere basic facts of the situation. Here is an organized group of people called Islamic State. They claim to be on a mission from God to create an Islamic State where Islam dictates the law, who gets to live or die, and provides a moral basis for actions such as those we are seeing - the horrific abuse of people's human rights. Then we have people like Reza Aslan and those on here defending him saying "well its nothing to do with Islam, its just all these other things."

    I'm sorry, but you are lying to yourselves as well as everyone else. The clue is in the name - you only have to look at two words and you will see what the biggest problem is here: Islamic State.
    When the justification someone uses for human rights abuses is a religion, what right do people have to pretend the religion is not the problem. If you are able to bend the Quran to say what you want it to say, the Quran is part of the problem. Failure to admit this is blindness cause by a prior wish to defend the religion as a whole.

  20. #100
    Cyrene's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Ben Affleck Versus Bill Maher and Sam Harris

    So basically Libya is "home of freedom and prosperity" just because Muammar Gaddafi claimed it to be as such? got it.


    btw i'd like Caliph Ibrahim (PBUH) to explain these for me please:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (2:190)"

    "But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). (8:61)"

    "If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear God, the cherisher of the worlds. (5:28)"

    "God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. ( 60:8)"

    "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for God. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers. ( 2:193)"

    "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. ( 2:256)"

    "Again and again will those who disbelieve, wish that they had bowed (to God's will) in Islam. Leave them alone, to enjoy (the good things of this life) and to please themselves: let (false) hope amuse them: soon will knowledge (undeceive them). (15:2-3)"


    "Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it):......( 18:29)"

    "If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then COMPEL mankind, against their will, to believe! ( 10:99)"

    "Say: 'Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (24:54)"

    "Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine. (109:1-6)"
    Last edited by Cyrene; October 13, 2014 at 05:44 AM.

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