Ben Affleck Versus Bill Maher and Sam Harris

[Papay]

So Bill Majer and Sam harris are claiming that Islam is the root of bad ideas and that if you insult them they will kill you and this causes Ben Affleck to react angrily. Interesting to note that the video was uploaded yesterday and it has already 4 million views. I surely support Ben Affleck on this

[Himster]

Bill and Sam (yeah, we're on first name basis) made an elementary mistake by beginning the conversation with generalizations, the word "Islam" was used when they meant to say "radical-Islam", perhaps deliberately to artificially create false tension and debate even though both sides are fundamentally agreeing.

[Celsius]

Bill and Sam (yeah, we're on first name basis) made an elementary mistake by beginning the conversation with generalizations, the word "Islam" was used when they meant to say "radical-Islam", perhaps deliberately to artificially create false tension and debate even though both sides are fundamentally agreeing.

I don't think they did. They were explaining the sects of Islam, and then came to the conclusion that Islam (much like many other mainstream religions) is built upon inequality. Just because they didn't bring Christianity or other religions into it to level out the playing field doesn't make it a pure attack on Islam. Affleck comes into the "gross generalizations" argument when the generalizations are not just against Islam, but all religions together. The polls stated are accurate, and while I personally don't condone any type of state religion or a justice system built upon the pillars of a religion, some religions have bad ideas. Christianity has a slavery complex, Islam has a death to apostates complex. They're just fundamentally bad ideas all around.

Another little point would be that Sam Harris has done this before. He has has this same argument time and time again which could be why he never lost his composure, but Affleck does (maybe it's just Boston). They're agreeing, but they are also disagreeing. Who would have thought that during this episode it would be the Atheist vs Actor and not the Atheist vs Fundamentalist Christian who rarely spoke up during this.

[Condottiere 40K]

Maher is well known of his skepticism of all religions. Affleck going ballistic was unexpected.

[Theo]

Harris and Maher were describing Islam as a political force and institution, Affleck assumed they were discussing Muslims as a demographic. Hilarity ensues.

[Visna]

Affleck going ballistic was unexpected.

Affleck has self-confessed temper issues. Being of both Scottish and Irish descent and being from Boston can probably do that to people
It could just be a sales stunt though, but this is what he said in connection with playing Batman.

For me, anger is so deeply buried and contained that when it does kind of come out, it comes out in stronger bursts. I tend to be respectful, polite, get along, put up with, put up with, put up with… then, when it finally emerges, it’s not something I have a ton of control over. I’m not gonna go into a Wolverine berserker rage, but I do have a, I do… That is an interesting thing that you point out. That’s my personality… By the way, that’s a character flaw, I think. I should sit down and say, ‘Listen, I just want to let you know what happened there wasn’t OK’, instead of going, let it go, let it go, let it go … ‘Ah, that’s not a big deal’, until finally you just pop!”

http://www.geeksandcleats.com/2014/0...batmans-anger/

[Stavros_Kalmpou]

well, I am confident they were talking just about ISIS and those who blow themselves up. There are the good and the bad in every religion.

[athanaric]

I'm confused. I thought Ben Affleck was an actor? Why am I supposed to care about his political opinion and what's he doing in a political talkshow? Does he have an academic degree relevant to the topic, or experience as a diplomat?

Harris and Maher were describing Islam as a political force and institution, Affleck assumed they were discussing Muslims as a demographic. Hilarity ensues.

A common misunderstanding, no doubt. Usually caused by poor communication on the one side and knee-jerk reactions on the other.

[Phier]

I'm confused. I thought Ben Affleck was an actor? Why am I supposed to care about his political opinion and what's he doing in a political talkshow? Does he have an academic degree relevant to the topic, or experience as a diplomat?

My first thought was "Three people whos opinion I don't care about".

[cfmonkey45]

Christopher Hitchens did it better.



However, having said that, neither Bill Maher, nor Sam Harris are really that sophisticated when it comes to historical knowledge about Islam. Now, I'm no serious fan of Islam, but I have to admit that the Rashidun and Fatimid Caliphates, as well as the Western Ummayyads, were exceptionally tolerant and forward thinking, and that much of the Muslim world shares in this inheritance. However, because of the economic, political, and intellectual stagnation of the Islamic world from pretty much the Mongol Sack of Baghdad to the Fall of the Ottoman Caliphate, you have a general absence of strong ideological traditions following the European Colonialism that affected much of the Muslim World until the end of the Second World War. From this, as well as some of the more radical reconstructionist sects (e.g. Salafism and Wahhabism), you see a large multitude of Islamic ideology reacting towards these principles in a way that deliberately rejects Western Liberal ideas, not necessarily because they are good or bad ideas, but because they are foreign/alien, and that they fear that this is a form of cultural imperialism.

Now, a great many people have erroneously mistaken this for the notion that Muslims in general are anti-liberal. To an extent, this may be true, but it needs to be viewed in the context that these are people that are far more interested in developing their own system, ideology, and nationalism without interference from the Western Powers. I.e. we shouldn't be invading them, nor should we be backing/supporting authoritarian regimes, nor should we be taking sides in their own internal politics (see Egypt); however, this extends also individuals. It's very easy for Bill Maher and Sam Harris to criticize Islam and extoll the virtues of Liberalism, especially when it hasn't been militarily imposed upon them by foreign powers, or by authoritarian dictaorships (e.g. Hosni Mubarak) backed by the West.

A critical part of Islamism is that Islam is a core cultural identity that transcends tribalism and occupies a temporary space in place of nationalism. I strongly support the secularization of Islam and Political Islam into what might possibly become something like Christian Democracy, but that really won't happen without the emergence of a post-colonial, post-tribal, and post-Islamist identity.

[Condottiere 40K]

It's a lot easier to be tolerant if you think history is on your side. With God, results tend to be a little less tolerant.

It could also be that lack, or suppression of competing ideas, that leads to stagnation, and even more incentive to maintain the status quo in eliminating rival ideologies.

[Taiji]

My first thought was "Three people whos opinion I don't care about".

Yup, me too - "3 nobodies discuss Islam *yawn*"

[Strengelicher]

Is this actor a muslim?

[athanaric]

My first thought was "Three people whos opinion I don't care about".

Well yeah, but at least one is the host and the other is a critical thinker of sorts (isn't he a philosopher?). It's not exactly a collection of the most relevant voices on the topic, but at least I can see the point in inviting the other guy. An actor, on the other hand....

Is this actor a muslim?

You mean, Bin Affleck? (dies)

No seriously, probably just your garden variety liberal (quoted from here). Of course, if he were Muslim and knew his scriptre, that'd add a little more weight to his opinion.

[sumskilz]

Razib Khan, who is more knowledgeable regarding Islam and the academic study of religion than any of these characters, has a nice blog post on the topic. If this first paragraph piques your interest, it's probably worth checking out:

The Ben Affleck vs. Bill Maher and Sam Harris debate about Islam is all over the interwebs, and seems like something of a Rorschach test. On my Twitter some people seem awfully impressed by Ben, while others (including me) think that it’s a pretty good illustration of the shallowness of contemporary Left liberalism when it comes to religion. One response is that “you can’t generalize about 1.5 billion people.” No, I don’t mean Catholics, I mean Muslims. When it comes to Christianity, or white males, Left liberals seem comfortable generalizing about a pattern of patriarchy or oppression, no matter that some white Christian males were at the forefront of movements such as abolitionism. Words like “problematic” or “complex” and “nuanced” don’t come up when people begin to hold forth upon the “white male Christian patriarchy.” It’s a vast monolith. Imagine if someone stated there was a problem with child sex abuse in the Catholic Church, and the response was that “you can’t generalize, most Catholic priests are not child abusers!” True. But enough are that it’s a problem. Affleck’s immediate response is that Maher and Harris’ assertions were “Gross and Racist.” This emotive explosion is really at the heart of it, criticism of Islam triggered a disgust and aversion response, not a rational reaction. Not that we should expect Ben Affleck to engage in deep analysis, just as Maher and Harris are not deep thinkers on religion either. One strange thing I note about Ben Affleck’s angry reaction is that he challenged Maher and Harris on their lack of deep scholarly credentials in Islam. Now, if a Muslim had demanded this it would kind of make sense, but I don’t understand why a secular liberal would talk as if only the ulema could speak authoritatively about Islam. This is somewhat similar to the Yale Humanist association objecting to Ayaan Hirsi Ali speaking about Islam, and demanding that someone with academic credentials be invited as well. Shall we impose the same criterion when it comes to Christianity? Only pastors and priests need apply?

http://www.unz.com/gnxp/isis-willing-executioners/

On that note, I'd like to add this "gross and racist" image:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[jockmcplop]

Harris is not a deep thinker on religion?
I thought that was his main area of expertise

[sumskilz]

Harris is not a deep thinker on religion?
I thought that was his main area of expertise

It isn't, neuroscience is his area of expertise. His research on religion is more an exercise in motivated reasoning.

EDIT: Although I do find him to be a deep thinker generally speaking, and the most interesting of the so-called "Four Horsemen".

[Denny Crane!]

Not quite Sumskilz, religion and philosophy were his initial studies, and BoA, he then progressed on to a PhD in neuroscience but with a focus on studying the effects of religion on the mind, and after several years gap of studying meditation in the far east.

So yeah he is definitely a deep thinker on religion having devoted most of his life to it.

[Squiggle]

"your a racist your a racist" basically sums up Ben afflecks contribution to the discussion.

[Papay]

Ben affleck had directed the film Argo and its almost a certainty that he knows more things about Islam compared to most people. I think he has a point because Sam Harris tries to claim that what ISIS does is what all muslims should do if they are devout muslims. Its the same tactic he uses when he bashes christianity:Some christians were fanatic therefore all christians should fanatic. Quite a naive logic