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Thread: 92% of Americans want wealth distribution like Sweden's

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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default 92% of Americans want wealth distribution like Sweden's

    Study: Most Americans want wealth distribution similar to Sweden

    92 percent prefer Swedish model to US model when given a choice

    Americans generally underestimate the degree of income inequality in the United States, and if given a choice, would distribute wealth in a similar way to the social democracies of Scandinavia, a new study finds.

    For decades, polls have shown that a plurality of Americans — around 40 percent — consider themselves conservative, while only around 20 percent self-identify as liberals. But a new study from two noted economists casts doubt on what values lie beneath those political labels.

    According to research (PDF) carried out by Michael I. Norton of Harvard Business School and Dan Ariely of Duke University, and flagged by Paul Kedrosky at the Infectious Greed blog, 92 percent of Americans would choose to live in a society with far less income disparity than the US, choosing Sweden’s model over that of the US.

    What’s more, the study’s authors say that this applies to people of all income levels and all political leanings: The poor and the rich, Democrats and Republicans are all equally likely to choose the Swedish model.

    But the study also found that respondents preferred Sweden’s model over a model of perfect income equality for everyone, “suggesting that Americans prefer some inequality to perfect equality, but not to the degree currently present in the United States,” the authors state.

    Recent analyses have shown that income inequality in the US has grown steadily for the past three decades and reached its highest level on record, exceeding even the large disparities seen in the 1920s, before the Great Depression. Norton and Ariely estimate that the one percent wealthiest Americans hold nearly 50 percent of the country’s wealth, while the richest 20 percent hold 84 percent of the wealth.

    But in their study, the authors found Americans generally underestimate the income disparity. When asked to estimate, respondents on average estimated that the top 20 percent have 59 percent of the wealth (as opposed to the real number, 84 percent). And when asked to choose how much the top 20 percent should have, on average respondents said 32 percent — a number similar to the wealth distribution seen in Sweden.

    “What is most striking” about the results, argue the authors, is that they show “more consensus than disagreement among … different demographic groups. All groups – even the wealthiest respondents – desired a more equal distribution of wealth than what they estimated the current United States level to be, while all groups also desired some inequality – even the poorest respondents.”

    The authors suggest the reason that American voters have not made more of an issue of the growing income gap is that they may simply not be aware of it. “Second, just as people have erroneous beliefs about the actual level of wealth inequality, they may also hold overly optimistic beliefs about opportunities for social mobility in the United States, beliefs which in turn may drive support for unequal distributions of wealth,” they write.

    The authors also note that, though there may be widespread agreement about income inequality, there is no agreement on what caused it or what should be done about it.

    “Americans exhibit a general disconnect between their attitudes towards economic inequality and their self-interest and public policy preferences, suggesting that even given increased awareness of the gap between ideal and actual wealth distributions, Americans may remain unlikely to advocate for policies that would narrow this gap,” the authors argue.
    This seems pretty conclusive, you guys. It's now time for Texas to break off from the rest of the United States, because all the other states are filled with communist socialist terrorists who would turn us all into Swedes!

    God forbid CEOs of companies in the United States should be paid the ideal of about 7 to 10 times what the average worker is paid, instead of the reality of getting paid 200 to 300 times more!

    What do you guys think? Do you think people will continue being peasants and just ignore this? Are our corporate masters so powerful that this information, in the age of the Internet, is sidelined to the point of being unreachable to the common Tom, Dick, and Harry? It's literally all just a Google search away. I guess most people are too busy emptying their bottle of spray cheese onto their last loaf of bread, using the last few cents of their paycheck.

    The most frustrating part about all this is that CEOs haven't become amazingly more productive than CEOs of companies back in the 1960s, when the disparity was more than 100 times less than it is today. No. The average worker has actually become more productive, but they don't see the benefits. All of the income generated from that production is instead funneled upstairs to the chief executives of these companies, most of whom are not the trailblazing founders of their companies who deserve this reward. They are simply the top managers of their respective corporations. That's it.

  2. #2

    Default Re: 92% of Americans want wealth distribution like Sweden's

    Well this looks threatening for the Republicans, considering most people are only against the Swedish model out of hope/ignorance. Take off the mask and the rest shall fall away it would seem. If this is true I'm suprised they ever get anywhere electorally... most of their support should be voting Democratic.
    Although I must say 92% seems a bit too high.
    Last edited by Napoleonic Bonapartism; October 04, 2014 at 03:57 PM.
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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: 92% of Americans want wealth distribution like Sweden's



    It is kindly weird to see your state is least income-inequal in a region where income inequality is most heavy; what is wrong with you Indiana? Do you really have a low income-inequality because of good state policies or just the state policies are so bad that everyone is poor?
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    Default Re: 92% of Americans want wealth distribution like Sweden's

    Funny everyone paints the scandanavian countries as socialist paradises but in many ways they are more free market and more fiscally conservative than the USA.

    I mean who are the real capitalists etc? Running ruinous deficits and having corporate welfare, massive military spending and pork barrel projects on every bill isn't free market.

    Its strange to say but as a vaguely leaning liberal/libertarian I see more freedom in Scandinavia than in the USA. And I recognise high taxes and nationalised systems in there. Turns out free market advocates don't suppose that businesses teaming up with governments to rape the population a good thing (shocking to all of you anti libtards I know)

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    Default Re: 92% of Americans want wealth distribution like Sweden's

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleonic Bonapartism View Post
    Well this looks threatening for the Republicans, considering most people are only against the Swedish model out of hope/ignorance. Take off the mask and the rest shall fall away it would seem. If this is true I'm suprised they ever get anywhere electorally... most of their support should be voting Democratic.
    Although I must say 92% seems a bit too high.
    I think based on the question they asked 92% is probably very accurate.

    Remember they only asked what kind of society would people prefer when it comes to inequality. Thats a total hypothetical. I think its logical to assume that about 92% of people would generally pick a society with less income inequality at the top 1%.

    However they didn't ask what programs people would be comfortable with to get to that Swedish level of equality. Thats the key really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    Funny everyone paints the scandanavian countries as socialist paradises but in many ways they are more free market and more fiscally conservative than the USA.

    I mean who are the real capitalists etc? Running ruinous deficits and having corporate welfare, massive military spending and pork barrel projects on every bill isn't free market.

    Its strange to say but as a vaguely leaning liberal/libertarian I see more freedom in Scandinavia than in the USA. And I recognise high taxes and nationalised systems in there. Turns out free market advocates don't suppose that businesses teaming up with governments to rape the population a good thing (shocking to all of you anti libtards I know)
    Well they are both mixed economies, they are just mixed in subtle but importantly different ways IMO. The US system in the words of many observers of the recent financial crisis "privatizes the profits and socializes the risks". In many ways its the worst of both capitalism and socialism.

    While I see where you are coming from, its also important to note that while Sweden is more free market in some ways than most presume, its also not exactly the utopia Von Mises Institute diehards would construct either.
    Last edited by chilon; October 04, 2014 at 05:51 PM.
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    Default Re: 92% of Americans want wealth distribution like Sweden's

    Of course its not because they propse idealised worlds based on their models but it is far closer to anything than the USA is and it absolutely practices fiscal conservatism than the USA as proved by its actions in 1992-3 onwards.

    In levels of importance that supercedes other structural arrangements whether you are Keynsian or Mise relative. The idea of rational governance and sound fiscal policy is the only basis on which any policies can be built

    Everything else is irrelevant. The likes of Sweden is a victory for left or right whichever way you wish to take it. Anyone who contradicts this is just being blindly partisan.

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    Default Re: 92% of Americans want wealth distribution like Sweden's

    This just in, researchers ask do people want more money, 90+% say yes.



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    Default Re: 92% of Americans want wealth distribution like Sweden's

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    Of course its not because they propse idealised worlds based on their models but it is far closer to anything than the USA is and it absolutely practices fiscal conservatism than the USA as proved by its actions in 1992-3 onwards.

    In levels of importance that supercedes other structural arrangements whether you are Keynsian or Mise relative. The idea of rational governance and sound fiscal policy is the only basis on which any policies can be built

    Everything else is irrelevant. The likes of Sweden is a victory for left or right whichever way you wish to take it. Anyone who contradicts this is just being blindly partisan.
    I agree with your interpretation but a lot of American Tea Party diehards will not see Sweden as a victory for free market capitalism.
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    Default Re: 92% of Americans want wealth distribution like Sweden's

    Most of America's wealth distribution problems could be solved with a well thought out European style labor code/law which makes collective contracts mandatory fro all businesses and sets out clear limits to the employer's and employee's rights and obligations.
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    Default Re: 92% of Americans want wealth distribution like Sweden's

    Quote Originally Posted by chilon View Post
    I agree with your interpretation but a lot of American Tea Party diehards will not see Sweden as a victory for free market capitalism.
    Ron Paul the kind of founder of the Tea Party would. A fair portion of them are die hard religious lunatics and other than that I wouldn't want to generalise. If given the full facts in a rational manner they may well concede the points I make.

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    Default Re: 92% of Americans want wealth distribution like Sweden's

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    Ron Paul the kind of founder of the Tea Party would. A fair portion of them are die hard religious lunatics and other than that I wouldn't want to generalise. If given the full facts in a rational manner they may well concede the points I make.
    More relevant would be that they are die hard anti-communist remnants from the Cold War era (and some of their kids) that view anything remotely government related as being communist. Plenty of them, and not all religious, called Obamacare communist which was quite obviously extremely ignorant but its the reality.

    Since you are in the UK you probably didn't hear much of the Republican congress and the language they used just fighting Obamacare which isn't even close to being a socialist program. That is not a small demographic in America and not easy to dismiss. Most of the current Tea Party (at least the ones I still see setting up booths at farmers markets and such) probably wouldn't vote for Ron Paul over Mitt Romney based on what they say.
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    Default Re: 92% of Americans want wealth distribution like Sweden's

    Taken straight from the source linked to in the OP:
    The authors also note that, though there may be widespread agreement about income inequality, there is no agreement on what caused it or what should be done about it.
    That is why nonsense like this is just that, nonsense.


    And don't miss this little gem either:
    “Americans exhibit a general disconnect between their attitudes towards economic inequality and their self-interest and public policy preferences, suggesting that even given increased awareness of the gap between ideal and actual wealth distributions, Americans may remain unlikely to advocate for policies that would narrow this gap,” the authors argue.
    Just who is it that determines "ideal wealth distributions"? Its the people running the "study" of course. That is why crap like this is inherently biased to begin with. When you start with a question like "What is the best path to get to xyz" you automatically bias the results, because there are craploads of people who don't want to get to xyz and you have turned them off from even answering the question to begin with. So you end up with people that have a predisposition towards a particular point of view right from the start. Harvard actually has a study on that kind of stuff that predates this by a long time called the Implicit Association test.

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    Default Re: 92% of Americans want wealth distribution like Sweden's

    Quote Originally Posted by chilon View Post
    More relevant would be that they are die hard anti-communist remnants from the Cold War era (and some of their kids) that view anything remotely government related as being communist. Plenty of them, and not all religious, called Obamacare communist which was quite obviously extremely ignorant but its the reality.

    Since you are in the UK you probably didn't hear much of the Republican congress and the language they used just fighting Obamacare which isn't even close to being a socialist program. That is not a small demographic in America and not easy to dismiss. Most of the current Tea Party (at least the ones I still see setting up booths at farmers markets and such) probably wouldn't vote for Ron Paul over Mitt Romney based on what they say.

    As an outsider who has read a lot into ACA and its positives and negatives I can't say I support it, not even a little, but its not communist. I have read and heard the rather fanatical objections to it.

    But yeah the TP you got a lot of crazy over there. They are basically the equivalent to our socialist elements over here it isn't like we don't have it if slightly less so due to various reasons. And I wouldn't be surprised if they wouldn't vote for Ron Paul as he is rather committed and the TP amalgamated into the republican fanatical side.

    But holding up poster cards of people who are stupid isn't a good way to debate ideas. The post you replied to was about what IS not what people perceive it to be. Perhaps this poll reflects a growing recognition of this truth or at least a desire to understand why they seem to have better run countries.

    And as much as (and I am coming to you as) ideologues like yourself want to talk about nationalised healthcare, and other things that count towards those countries good governance that is an after effect not a primary cause. Root cause is good governance. They can regulate their finances, adopt policy based on what works, evidence based approaches and not run on hubris/military/corruption which seem to be the cornerstones of US spending.

    And the ACA is a primary example. There are tens of fixes that wouldn't have needed the hundreds of millions spent to create a cheaper system of all but it wasn't what ideologues wanted and the business it would have effected wouldn't have allowed it.

    Nothing changes in the US without a political solution. Forget big changes.

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    Default Re: 92% of Americans want wealth distribution like Sweden's

    Quote Originally Posted by GrnEyedDvl View Post
    Just who is it that determines "ideal wealth distributions"? Its the people running the "study" of course. That is why crap like this is inherently biased to begin with. When you start with a question like "What is the best path to get to xyz" you automatically bias the results, because there are craploads of people who don't want to get to xyz and you have turned them off from even answering the question to begin with. So you end up with people that have a predisposition towards a particular point of view right from the start. Harvard actually has a study on that kind of stuff that predates this by a long time called the Implicit Association test.
    But that wasn't what they asked them. The participants were simply asked to construct their own ideal wealth distribution - it wasn't determined for them by the researchers.

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    Default Re: 92% of Americans want wealth distribution like Sweden's

    Isn't America the country where 1% owns 99% of the money? Or is that just a gross exaggeration?

    As a Swede with strong Left-ish convictions, I can say that I think our system is, for the most part, far superior over the sorry state of American economics. But we're talking a country with 10 000 000 inhabitants, against your 300 000 000. There's simply too many of you to make it work for all of you, and hey, we have tons of people falling between the cracks over here as well.


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    Default Re: 92% of Americans want wealth distribution like Sweden's

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    As an outsider who has read a lot into ACA and its positives and negatives I can't say I support it, not even a little, but its not communist. I have read and heard the rather fanatical objections to it.

    But yeah the TP you got a lot of crazy over there. They are basically the equivalent to our socialist elements over here it isn't like we don't have it if slightly less so due to various reasons. And I wouldn't be surprised if they wouldn't vote for Ron Paul as he is rather committed and the TP amalgamated into the republican fanatical side.

    But holding up poster cards of people who are stupid isn't a good way to debate ideas. The post you replied to was about what IS not what people perceive it to be. Perhaps this poll reflects a growing recognition of this truth or at least a desire to understand why they seem to have better run countries.

    And as much as (and I am coming to you as) ideologues like yourself want to talk about nationalised healthcare, and other things that count towards those countries good governance that is an after effect not a primary cause. Root cause is good governance. They can regulate their finances, adopt policy based on what works, evidence based approaches and not run on hubris/military/corruption which seem to be the cornerstones of US spending.

    And the ACA is a primary example. There are tens of fixes that wouldn't have needed the hundreds of millions spent to create a cheaper system of all but it wasn't what ideologues wanted and the business it would have effected wouldn't have allowed it.

    Nothing changes in the US without a political solution. Forget big changes.
    I wouldn't call myself an ideologue for nationalized health care at all. I would consider myself an experimentalist

    Besides saying nationalized health care would be better than the current broken HMO model, I have also linked totally alternative proposals such as David Goldhill who wrote for the Atlantic and gave a talk at Cato on his proposal which, while it also includes a nationalized emergency/terminal services coverage for all Americans, is far more "free market" style than anything ever tried for health care. I would be okay with that system too.

    My big thing is looking at incentive structures. Where do the incentives lie in the structures we create and how do those incentives affect decisions. Current model in the US HMO system has completely messed up incentive structures.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrnEyedDvl View Post
    Just who is it that determines "ideal wealth distributions"? Its the people running the "study" of course. That is why crap like this is inherently biased to begin with. When you start with a question like "What is the best path to get to xyz" you automatically bias the results, because there are craploads of people who don't want to get to xyz and you have turned them off from even answering the question to begin with. So you end up with people that have a predisposition towards a particular point of view right from the start. Harvard actually has a study on that kind of stuff that predates this by a long time called the Implicit Association test.
    Like Soren pointed out the researchers didn't lead them anywhere. They were asked to construct their ideal wealth distribution. So to answer question of "who determines" it? The participants all determined their own on their own. Then that data was compared from what people picked as their own ideal distribution to what was actual. For the exact question they asked it was as unbiased as you can get.

    You just strawmanned the article.
    Last edited by chilon; October 04, 2014 at 08:54 PM.
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    Default Re: 92% of Americans want wealth distribution like Sweden's

    This "study" is political fodder at best and a fine example of academic trolling at worst. A sample of people were shown three pie charts and asked to pick one. The "scholars" in charge of the study then apparently conclude that means the "average" American prefers to live in Sweden because a statistical majority of the sample picked a pie chart resembling a particular attribute resembling X situation in Sweden (gotta love the "we promise we have no conflict of interest as authors of this article" at the end). If that's an academically sound experiment I can just as easily "prove" most Americans prefer anarcho-capitalism by asking them how much of their paycheck they would like to fork over in taxes. If asked whether they would prefer to pay a minimum of 30% and an average of 70% of gross earnings in taxes like people do in the Nordic Model paradise of Sweden, I'd bet the "average American" would vote no on that. Call it a null hypothesis

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Achieving this magic pie chart of relative equality would also mean giving the federal government the necessary and vastly greater economic and regulatory authority to affect the kind of aggressive wealth redistribution required for such a feat. Given that the federal government can't seem to manage a public insurance program without running it into the ground by tens of trillions of dollars, I'm not sure I nor the "average American" would be comfortable giving the federal government charge over the sort of tightly regulated system with a large social safety net that would redistribute wealth and make us "more like Sweden" in general. Call that a null hypothesis too if you like.

    I could also go on about how the Nordic Model is largely made possible by a unique and historically well-established homogeneity of ethnic and social institutions in the Nordic countries, a vastly different world from the ecumenical melting pot of the US. But I digress. Debating a troll article probably only serves to give it wholly undeserved publicity.

    Bottom line, if Americans really wanted to be "like Sweden," we'd have taken steps to get there long ago. We've been screamed at for the last few years about how conceptually bad income inequality is because...you know....rich people....and stuff. So it's not surprising that given the chance, most Americans would say that a more equitable income distribution is preferable to the current situation. It's one thing to want the pie chart in the sky, and another to actually pursue it. We, a bunch of farmers and shopkeepers, defied a superpower initially because of a few cents' extra taxes on common goods and services. We've historically pressed on into the wilderness, looking for the untamed and unclaimed frontier where the ambitious could strike it rich without government interference. We fought a massive and horrific Civil War stemming in large part from a debate on the scope of federal power and the nature of private property.

    Does anyone here really think a country like the US is suited for the sort of cradle-to-grave daycare that is archetypal social democracy? If so, why haven't we elected officials who will move us in that direction in a meaningful way? The authors of this study seem to blame societal ignorance, as though we're being kept in the dark about how wonderful it all really is in "Sweden" or about how awful life really is here in the US. Such a conclusion, of course, is as shoddy and politicized as its premise. The only thing this 5-page pamphlet for the SPUSA is good for is a spirited discussion amongst journo hacks weekdays on MSNBC.
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    Default Re: 92% of Americans want wealth distribution like Sweden's

    Nationalised Health Care in the UK might be slightly more efficient pound for pound than the USA (debatable but assume its a given) but that doesn't mean given how the US has evolved and its current situation that putting it in is feasible or possible. The ACA has not been good, the USA doesn't have the money and it has been put in place instead of vastly cheaper solutions that would have made things cheaper and more efficient without the cost. Its ideology driven rather than what would work.

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    Default Re: 92% of Americans want wealth distribution like Sweden's

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggles View Post
    Isn't America the country where 1% owns 99% of the money? Or is that just a gross exaggeration?

    As a Swede with strong Left-ish convictions, I can say that I think our system is, for the most part, far superior over the sorry state of American economics. But we're talking a country with 10 000 000 inhabitants, against your 300 000 000. There's simply too many of you to make it work for all of you, and hey, we have tons of people falling between the cracks over here as well.
    "USA is to big" in 3...2...1, Oh its already here.

    I knew this argument would come up again. Its nonsense. USA has in many ways been more Swedish than Sweden is today. It was the New Deal US that together with European likeminded strung together the post WW2 settlement. USA had 90+% taxes on the upper echelons, strong regulations from finance to food, strong labor laws, wide spread public schooling in many ways more egalitarian compared to many Europeans school systems, massive govt infra-structure investments etc, etc.

    Its just that USA has for decades been minded into believing a wildwest story. And this "to big", "to vast", "from the appalacheans to the rocky mountains" argument is a part of that mind.

    Srsly. its carefully constructed and succesful propaganda. Which should tell you a thing on all sorts of other matters.
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    Default Re: 92% of Americans want wealth distribution like Sweden's

    I doubt 92% of Americans would enjoy Swedish taxes.
    It is important to point out that Swedish model owes its success to low population density, more or less isolated geographic position (didn't require as much military spending) and and(initially) homogeneous population. First and third is being effectively negated by the influx of immigrants, so within the next decade we'll probably witness how situation in Sweden will take a turn for worse.

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