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Thread: WTF Poland where are you???

  1. #1

    Default WTF Poland where are you???

    Why Poland doesn't exist? Is that historically accurate? I've started my campaign with Prussia and all the Poland area is mine. It's not even an emergent faction?

  2. #2

    Default Re: WTF Poland where are you???

    I'm pretty sure it's an emergent faction for Napoleon TW.

  3. #3

    Default Re: WTF Poland where are you???

    That is historically accurate. Poland was destroyed between 1772-1795. It was divided up between Prussia, Russia and Austria. Poland only regained independence after World War 1. There were rumours and perhaps even plans - I can't remember fully, I read a book a while ago - to restore Poland when Napoleon invaded Russia, but the closest they got was the Duchy of Warsaw, which contained parts of modern Poland and, obviously, Warsaw, however it was never formally called Poland. After Napoleons defeat there were thoughts of restoring Poland at the Congress of Vienna, the Tsar was even on board with the scheme for a while - but it was too controversial and so the Allies simply divided the area up again.
    When Adam delved and Eve span, who was then the gentleman?

    - John Ball (1381)

  4. #4

    Default Re: WTF Poland where are you???

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleonic Bonapartism View Post
    That is historically accurate. Poland was destroyed between 1772-1795. It was divided up between Prussia, Russia and Austria. Poland only regained independence after World War 1. There were rumours and perhaps even plans - I can't remember fully, I read a book a while ago - to restore Poland when Napoleon invaded Russia, but the closest they got was the Duchy of Warsaw, which contained parts of modern Poland and, obviously, Warsaw, however it was never formally called Poland. After Napoleons defeat there were thoughts of restoring Poland at the Congress of Vienna, the Tsar was even on board with the scheme for a while - but it was too controversial and so the Allies simply divided the area up again.
    Wow that's very interesting!!! I always thought that Poland was one of the biggest countries and most important before WWII

  5. #5
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: WTF Poland where are you???

    That was true in the middle ages / Renaissance

    Commontwealth of Poland-Lithuania 1619


    But then Poland was weakend, and partitionned 3 times between Prussia, Russia and Austria at the end of the 18th century

    And so it's not there at all at the beginning of the game.

    Napoleon "freed" Poland by creating new nation, the Duchy of Warsaw (created in 1807, expanded in 1809)

    But it disappeared again the congress of Vienna, mostly to the benefit of Russia.

    Poland regained independant only after WWI.


  6. #6

    Default Re: WTF Poland where are you???

    ^This^

    Quote Originally Posted by gangster19 View Post
    Wow that's very interesting!!! I always thought that Poland was one of the biggest countries and most important before WWII
    As shown above in Steph's excellent set of maps it was restored by the Treaty of Versailles. It was pretty marginal politically between the Wars I believe, but it was pretty large - I'm no expert however - best known perhaps for being the starting point of WW2, not much other than that. The political center of gravity moved to Western Europe starting around the time of the English Civil War, perhaps even at the time of the Dutch Revolt, by the Enlightenment West Europe was key, the East was more and more marginalised. You still had Russia and Austria of course but the East of Europe never rivalled the West again after the Fall of Napoleon (Cold War aside), as shown by the Crimean War - by my reckoning at least.
    Last edited by Napoleonic Bonapartism; October 05, 2014 at 03:17 PM.
    When Adam delved and Eve span, who was then the gentleman?

    - John Ball (1381)

  7. #7

    Default Re: WTF Poland where are you???

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleonic Bonapartism View Post
    ^This^



    As shown above in Steph's excellent set of maps it was restored by the Treaty of Versailles.
    Indeed Poland was pretty large again between 1918 and 1939, i.e. between the World Wars.
    But then the Hitler-Stalin pact was forged and German and Soviet armies invaded, occupied and divided Poland in 1939 again.
    After WW2, the Soviets, now allies of the West instead of Hitler, refused to restore Poland in pre-war borders (because they considered the eastern part of Poland traditionally their territory), instead they brokered a deal with the US and UK that USSR could Keep the western Polish lands, and Poland would be granted east German territories as a form of compensation.
    The Allies had to agree, this was part of the deal to Keep the Soviets in the Alliance against Hitler.

  8. #8

    Default Re: WTF Poland where are you???

    Quote Originally Posted by Kraut View Post
    Indeed Poland was pretty large again between 1918 and 1939, i.e. between the World Wars.
    But then the Hitler-Stalin pact was forged and German and Soviet armies invaded, occupied and divided Poland in 1939 again.
    After WW2, the Soviets, now allies of the West instead of Hitler, refused to restore Poland in pre-war borders (because they considered the eastern part of Poland traditionally their territory), instead they brokered a deal with the US and UK that USSR could Keep the western Polish lands, and Poland would be granted east German territories as a form of compensation.
    The Allies had to agree, this was part of the deal to Keep the Soviets in the Alliance against Hitler.
    That's very interesting - is Poland restored to it's old borders as of the present day, or does Russia still have the Western lands - despite the collapse of the USSR?
    When Adam delved and Eve span, who was then the gentleman?

    - John Ball (1381)

  9. #9
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: WTF Poland where are you???

    Look at Kaliningrad...

  10. #10

    Default Re: WTF Poland where are you???

    I see, I see. Always wondered what that enclave was doing there. I suppose by now its so Russian the people would never want to rejoin with Poland - to say nothing of current world events concerning Russia.
    When Adam delved and Eve span, who was then the gentleman?

    - John Ball (1381)

  11. #11
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: WTF Poland where are you???

    Not at all. Not much to do with people. Much to do with the big naval base.

  12. #12

    Default Re: WTF Poland where are you???

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleonic Bonapartism View Post
    That's very interesting - is Poland restored to it's old borders as of the present day, or does Russia still have the Western lands - despite the collapse of the USSR?
    Why should anyone have restored territory to Poland? And modern Russia has NO former Polish territory - Kaliningrad was former Prussian (German) territory!

    But the modern states of Belarus and Ukraine possess large former Polish lands. At least when counting pre-1795 polish borders and the conquests they gained in the Polish-Soviet War of 1919-1921. Because the restored Poland of the Central Powers and later the Treaty of Versailles after WW1, was not larger than Napoleons Duchy of Warsaw or Congress Poland of 1815-1864.

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleonic Bonapartism View Post
    It was pretty marginal politically between the Wars I believe, but it was pretty large - I'm no expert however
    As written above, the Polish-Soviet War was an important event of the first years after WW1 plus they formed a major ally of France to prevent any possible German consolidation after WW1. And when looking to the diplomatic and political events that led to WW2 you will realize that it was in contrary very important politically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steph View Post
    Look at Kaliningrad...
    Just to clarify this. Kaliningrad is part of an old province called Prussia. As written above it was German since centuries. Conquered by the Teutonic Order in the 13th century and only in name the Polish sovereign was it's overlord. In the 16th century the Order was dissolved and the territory came to Brandenburg (the later Prussian Kingdom). As Prussia became more powerful in the 17th/18th century, the Polish lost their imaginary sovereignty of these lands ...
    Last edited by Xerrop; October 21, 2014 at 01:13 AM.

  13. #13
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: WTF Poland where are you???

    yes, but it just shows Russia did not keep it because of historical ties between the people in this area and mother Russia. Although the initial German inhabitants were expelled and replaced by Soviet citizens.

    The most important is this:

    Kaliningrad Oblast used to be the most heavily militarized area of what is now the Russian Federation, and the density of military infrastructure was the highest in Europe. It was the headquarters of the former Soviet Baltic Military District. Kaliningrad also functions as the headquarters of the Russia's Baltic Fleet, circled by Chernyakhovsk (air base),Donskoye (air base) and Kaliningrad Chkalovsk (naval air base).

  14. #14

    Default Re: WTF Poland where are you???

    Quote Originally Posted by Kraut
    After WW2, the Soviets, now allies of the West instead of Hitler,
    The Soviets made a non-aggression pact with Germany, they never allied with Hitler.

  15. #15
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: WTF Poland where are you???

    no, but they were f... budies. While Germany was holding the Poles in 1939, the Soviets came from behind and

  16. #16
    Ciciro's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: WTF Poland where are you???

    Quote Originally Posted by Steph View Post
    no, but they were f... budies. While Germany was holding the Poles in 1939, the Soviets came from behind and
    Well the Poles did attack the Soviets first... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Soviet_War

  17. #17
    Steph's Avatar Maréchal de France
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    Default Re: WTF Poland where are you???

    Not the same war.... it was 20 years before.

  18. #18

    Default Re: WTF Poland where are you???

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Hibernian View Post
    The Soviets made a non-aggression pact with Germany, they never allied with Hitler.
    The non-aggression pact was the official part, right. The secret agreement regarding the partition of Poland (and other territories in eastern Europe), together with the pre-war military cooperation (Wehrmacht training in Russia), the invasion of Poland by Germans & Russians in September 1939, and Russia providing important goods for the German war industry right until June 1941 shows the intense degree of cooperation between the two totalitarian outcasts of Europe. They never formally allied de jure, but from 1939 till early 1941 it was an alliance in all but Name.

  19. #19

    Default Re: WTF Poland where are you???

    Quote Originally Posted by Švejk View Post
    Well the Poles did attack the Soviets first... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Soviet_War
    Are you sure you can call this a polish attack? Soviet Russia officially signed peace with Germany and abandoned these territories which became German, only to attack polish who were given back their independence at the Versailles in Paris.

  20. #20

    Default Re: WTF Poland where are you???

    Russia has Kaliningrad because the traditional base for the Baltic fleet at St.Petersburg, Kronstadt, freezes up in winter, as does the rest of the Finnish gulf. Kaliningrad, being further south, doesn't, allowing the Baltic fleet to remain active even in winter.

    Arguing who has right to what land is rather pointless now, since the first thing Stalin did when he got the partition he wanted was to force the Germans across the Oder-Neisse and the Poles living in Ukraine into the new territory in the west. The reason Eastern Europe today has such clean Ethnic boundaries in many places is due to forced immigration at gunpoint. Some pretty horrible stuff happened in the post war period that tends to get swept under the rug in the traditional narrative.

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