Kaziel's Romans: Early Republic * V.1.0 * (Updated: 1/10/2014) * LIVE *

[Nigrinus81]

This work is impressive!!!!

Hope that you bring the late republic on soon, hard year for me. I waited more for mods than I actually played the games

Arma3 (Dragonfyre), Armada 3 mod for Sins of a Solar Empire, Rome 2 and your mod. Without it its just not fun anymore.

I admire your dedication.

Keep it up.

[andrew881thebest]

Thanks guys



First of all, I have never claimed my work is historically accurate. I use the word PLAUSIBLE.

Your link is a shop to buy an image of a bronze statue. How is that a University/Research level source?

About the Squamata, do you have evidence that they didn't wear them? Again, you fail to understand what
my mod is all about: Historical plausibility.

If you notice, the shop says that the bronze statue is 2nd or 1st century...because this is a very famous bronze statue made...guess when? in late 2nd or first century. I am sure I have seen it in pretty almost history books about roman history at school. If you notice, that statue is inside a museum and you can see other roman archeological artifacts in the background. It is not a replica, obviously. I linked it because it is even a pretty famous statue.
OK, I apologize if your purpose is not to make something historical, but I noticed you talked a lot about what shield or Umbo type could be more historical than another, so I imagined you tried to make some historical thing. Then, why not making something not only plausible (vanilla models are already that level) but even historical, since we know exactely from primary sources and archeological sources how roman republican legionaries looked like? Mine is only an opinion, obviously yours mod, you decide.

[diego007]

If you notice, the shop says that the bronze statue is 2nd or 1st century...because this is a very famous bronze statue made...guess when? in late 2nd or first century. I am sure I have seen it in pretty almost history books about roman history at school. If you notice, that statue is inside a museum and you can see other roman archeological artifacts in the background. It is not a replica, obviously. I linked it because it is even a pretty famous statue.
OK, I apologize if your purpose is not to make something historical, but I noticed you talked a lot about what shield or Umbo type could be more historical than another, so I imagined you tried to make some historical thing. Then, why not making something not only plausible (vanilla models are already that level) but even historical, since we know exactely from primary sources and archeological sources how roman republican legionaries looked like? Mine is only an opinion, obviously yours mod, you decide.

I don't want to interfere with your argument, but bashing into other people's mod and displaying rude attitude toward the author is really uncivilized. I noticed you've also commented on itleonard's mod as "Looks terrible". Really, if you are unappreciative toward other people's effort for your free enjoyment, no one wants to know. If you don't like it, the combination of Alt and F4 on your keyboard will bring you utmost satisfaction.

[Kaziel]

If you notice, the shop says that the bronze statue is 2nd or 1st century...because this is a very famous bronze statue made...guess when? in late 2nd or first century. I am sure I have seen it in pretty almost history books about roman history at school. If you notice, that statue is inside a museum and you can see other roman archeological artifacts in the background. It is not a replica, obviously. I linked it because it is even a pretty famous statue.
OK, I apologize if your purpose is not to make something historical, but I noticed you talked a lot about what shield or Umbo type could be more historical than another, so I imagined you tried to make some historical thing. Then, why not making something not only plausible (vanilla models are already that level) but even historical, since we know exactely from primary sources and archeological sources how roman republican legionaries looked like? Mine is only an opinion, obviously yours mod, you decide.

Providing a link to a poster shop showing a picture of a "well known" bronze statue is NOT a good source. When I'm talking
about a real source, in your words "primary" source, I am thinking a picture or an excerpt from a respected published historian.
This is a basic university (or even high school) requisite when it comes to proper sources. I see nothing on the page you linked
informing me that it is a real bronze statue crafted by a real Roman, dated etc. So at the end of the day, that link, is no better
than a picture of a re-enactor.

Now let's pretend that I 100% believe that it's a real statue made by a real guy around the 2nd century BC. Statues are works of
art. An artist does have some freedom and will always be tempted to add his own spin on what he sees (unless off course the
artist is a designer, e.g. an architect, where his designs have to function, or it'll just fall apart). Now in the end if you can prove
to me that it is a real statue, I will not deny that the scuta could have looked like it, but do I have to follow it 100%? why not
follow this 100%?:



Or this?:



Why not these?:



The simple answer is that I am an ancient warfare fan who likes to keep things realistic, but I am still an artist who likes to add his
own flavour whenever or wherever he feels like it's plausible. Lastly, as you said, this is my mod, I put the hard (unpaid) work into
doing all that you see. The aim of my art mods since I first started over a decade ago have always been about realism and plausibility,
slightly dirty but still beautiful. In my humble opinion, what I am producing follows my direction and am happy with it.

Next time you (or anyone else for that matter) come to my thread spouting words like "historically accurate", and sentences like "since
we know exactely from primary sources and archeological sources how roman republican legionaries looked like?" please accompany them
with real and hard to dispute evidence. I'm not asking for proper university level research material, but at least give me better things to digest,
than a link to an online poster shop

[Petellius]

I don't want to interfere with your argument, but bashing into other people's mod and displaying rude attitude toward the author is really uncivilized. I noticed you've also you comment on itleonard's mod as "Looks terrible". Really, if you are unappreciative toward other people's effort for your free enjoyment, no one wants to know. If you don't like it, the combination of Alt and F4 on your keyboard will bring you utmost satisfaction.

He also tried to start a youtube argument with me because I was showcasing the triplex acies in Rome 2 and 'copied' his video which he made a month after mine. He often asks for unrealistic or impossible mods to be made, it would be best to ignore him. I only said that thing to Kaz about the shield because I genuinely want a really good shield model in Rome 2 as I am a huge history fanatic and Kaz and Leonardo are the only ones doing shield models and Leonardo is only doing later Roman stuff, combine you two would be unstoppable!

[Maximus183]

Alright, now that we've established that if you want to provide historical input you gotta source that shizzle, we can move on! And you got to let Kaz be free like a bird so he can fly! Let him do his!

I think those shields are sexy, do you have their phone number? Wouldn't mind that squamata the night after.

[M@x1mus]

Andrew if you don't like one modder's work, u can simply don't use his mod or u can make your own for your own tastes.(if you can) All overhauls in this game uses Kaz's textures and part's and that alone says everything... Concerning historical accuracy: judging by a single statue is not the best choice..

Alright, now that we've established that if you want to provide historical input you gotta source that shizzle, we can move on! And you got to let Kaz be free like a bird so he can fly! Let him do his!

I think those shields are sexy, do you have their phone number? Wouldn't mind that squamata the night after.

This!!

[Manu La Canette]

http://www.art.com/products/p1724484...century-bc.htm
this is a primary source about a late republic legionary. Simply to make you notice if he looks close to Kaziel's one. ON my personal opinion the shield looks very much different, the helm too. And please, tell me why you added the lorica squamata. Which sources do tell that LATE REPUBLIC romans used it? maybe I dont know.
I humbly think we should look at primary sources rather than what re-enactors (good people, but still not necesarly history teachers) do or wear.
I am not saying these models do not look good, but if he wants to make historical things, he should look for historical sources.

There were NO military reglementation about uniforms in the Roman army ever. Based upon archeological founds for example in Teutoburg forest (early 1st c. AD), we can say that lorica hamata, segmentata (since early 1st c. AD) or squamata (they found a lot of different scale types from roman armors) were used together at the same times. The uniform vision we have from the Trajan column of uniform Roman legionaries all wearing the segmentata is an artistic biased vision, archeology proves otherwise. All those types of armor didn't came in use by a reform or anything, even the shields types weren't fixed in any other mean than weight. Frankly, Kaziel's work is the most plausible depiction we can have in game so far, if you read all this read, you'll notice that he uses not only reenactors stuff for artistic inspiration, but also archeology and epigrahic sources.

And you can see there's artistic licence in the picture of the statue you posted. The gladius size has been reduced on purpose obviously to let the sculptor carve it upon one block. We can thus suspect than he did the same about the shield. This type of attic helmets also don't fit 2nd century BC imo, so it would be good to have an other image source than this poster review. You can't pick a single artistic representation and say that's how the soldiers looked back then. You have to mix also with written sources and archeological stuff, what did Kaziel in his work.

Just my thoughts.

Now that being say: the new shields look freaking awesome!!!

[Kaziel]

Sorry for not replying to each post, just wanna post up a pic to show that the Late Republican
Scutum #1 has been re-done. Working a bit slower today as I feel like I'm getting a cold hehe.



Thanks again for all the feedback and support!

[Little Legionaire]

Great work as usual Kaziel!

[VaeVictis]

Those shields are superb! Fantastic work!

[andrew881thebest]

Providing a link to a poster shop showing a picture of a "well known" bronze statue is NOT a good source. When I'm talking
about a real source, in your words "primary" source, I am thinking a picture or an excerpt from a respected published historian.
This is a basic university (or even high school) requisite when it comes to proper sources. I see nothing on the page you linked
informing me that it is a real bronze statue crafted by a real Roman, dated etc. So at the end of the day, that link, is no better
than a picture of a re-enactor.

Now let's pretend that I 100% believe that it's a real statue made by a real guy around the 2nd century BC. Statues are works of
art. An artist does have some freedom and will always be tempted to add his own spin on what he sees (unless off course the
artist is a designer, e.g. an architect, where his designs have to function, or it'll just fall apart). Now in the end if you can prove
to me that it is a real statue, I will not deny that the scuta could have looked like it, but do I have to follow it 100%? why not
follow this 100%?:



Or this?:



Why not these?:



The simple answer is that I am an ancient warfare fan who likes to keep things realistic, but I am still an artist who likes to add his
own flavour whenever or wherever he feels like it's plausible. Lastly, as you said, this is my mod, I put the hard (unpaid) work into
doing all that you see. The aim of my art mods since I first started over a decade ago have always been about realism and plausibility,
slightly dirty but still beautiful. In my humble opinion, what I am producing follows my direction and am happy with it.

Next time you (or anyone else for that matter) come to my thread spouting words like "historically accurate", and sentences like "since
we know exactely from primary sources and archeological sources how roman republican legionaries looked like?" please accompany them
with real and hard to dispute evidence. I'm not asking for proper university level research material, but at least give me better things to digest,
than a link to an online poster shop

sure everything you say but please dont put in doubt the reliability of the picture I linked, it is not simply "a poster", it is obviously the picture, the photograph, of an existing ancient bronze roman statue inside a Museum.

Do you still not believe the authenticity? ok, here is another picture of same statue: and this time is not a sold poster! http://www.archart.it/italia/lazio/R...to-mcr152.html

As you see, it is a statue in Rome, in "Roman Civilization's Museum". It is very detailed to show some licenses of the artist. Everything is shown in details. But there are some things which are a bit different from our ideas of how marian legionaries looked. Shield first of all, even if it could be made flat for other reasons, is TO FLAT to represent the typical curved scutum. Even the perimeter is different with a big border nailed to she shield...was that border in iron? in leather? I dont know but i think that it is unlikely to have been in iron, since a so big usage of iron would be a waste when same protective result could be achieved with much less iron, but who knows? Helm is different from typical helm of late republic legionaries, especially in the front "thing" over the forehead, but it is very similar to the other pics you linked, so I trust it a bit. And the cheek guards of helms look much smaller and less protective than usual. Last but not least...why dont we talk of long spear? an artistic license? on my opinion it means that at least some soldiers, after Triarii were formally abandoned, were still equipped with the long spears of Trarii. It would be interesting to see some late republic soldier with long spear.

[ToonTotalWar]

shields are fine Kaziel,

andrew881thebest - stop wasting Kalziel's time on these little observations which are totally insignificant and I suggest you start to learn to mod (just like I did!!) if you want certain items or unit to look your own way! enough said

[Kaziel]

Great work as usual Kaziel!

Those shields are superb! Fantastic work!

sure everything you say but please dont put in doubt the reliability of the picture I linked, it is not simply "a poster", it is obviously the picture, the photograph, of an existing ancient bronze roman statue inside a Museum.

Do you still not believe the authenticity? ok, here is another picture of same statue: and this time is not a sold poster! http://www.archart.it/italia/lazio/R...to-mcr152.html

As you see, it is a statue in Rome, in "Roman Civilization's Museum". It is very detailed to show some licenses of the artist. Everything is shown in details. But there are some things which are a bit different from our ideas of how marian legionaries looked. Shield first of all, even if it could be made flat for other reasons, is TO FLAT to represent the typical curved scutum. Even the perimeter is different with a big border nailed to she shield...was that border in iron? in leather? I dont know but i think that it is unlikely to have been in iron, since a so big usage of iron would be a waste when same protective result could be achieved with much less iron, but who knows? Helm is different from typical helm of late republic legionaries, especially in the front "thing" over the forehead, but it is very similar to the other pics you linked, so I trust it a bit. And the cheek guards of helms look much smaller and less protective than usual. Last but not least...why dont we talk of long spear? an artistic license? on my opinion it means that at least some soldiers, after Triarii were formally abandoned, were still equipped with the long spears of Trarii. It would be interesting to see some late republic soldier with long spear.

Like I said, even if the art piece is authentic I have my reasons for how I designed all the things that are in the mod.
Let's please just leave it there

Great work as usual Kaziel!

Those shields are superb! Fantastic work!

shields are fine Kaziel,
andrew881thebest - stop wasting Kalziel's time on these little observations which are totally insignificant and I suggest you start to learn to mod (just like I did!!) if you want certain items or unit to look your own way! enough said

Thanks for the compliments and support guys

---

Finished LRS#3 and here are some pictures of all three next to each other.











Gonna quickly re-do the vet and first cohort shields now.

[Manu La Canette]

Just perfect! Totally worth the hard work, result is outstanding. Can't wait to repress some Gauls with those guys!

Gonna quickly re-do the vet and first cohort shields now.

Does that mean we are close to a release?

[Kaziel]

Just perfect! Totally worth the hard work, result is outstanding. Can't wait to repress some Gauls with those guys!



Does that mean we are close to a release?

Unfortunately, no where near

This is what I have planned:

• Finish up the Scuta (Vets, 1st Cohort & Praetorians)
• Redo Oval shields, large Round shields and the smaller Parma.
• Fix helmet (Coolus & Montefortino) cheekplates, add strings etc.
• Fix or create new mesh for the Centurion crest and Montefortino horsehair.
• Fix up the mesh that I use for Lorica Hamata and Squamata.
• Fix up the mesh for Tunics.
• Fix up the mesh for Focalia.
• Fix or create new mesh for Pteruges.

That's all I can think of at the moment (I hope there isn't more!), oh yes! Generals... but I'll release
the Late Republic pack before working on the Auxiliaries and Generals

[M@x1mus]

Awesome can't wait! Keep up you excellent work Kaz!!

[Ardionso]

You give us dream ! And what you plan to do seems so magnificent, i'm like a child waiting for updates

[diego007]

This is so awesome that I won't bother playing rome until all your mods are released, it maybe long but I can take it, for the sake of perfection. The way you design those images and screenshots is enough to show your dedication. I have no doubt someday someone will use these pictures as a historical source haha

[andrew881thebest]

Like I said, even if the art piece is authentic I have my reasons for how I designed all the things that are in the mod.
Let's please just leave it there







Thanks for the compliments and support guys

---

Finished LRS#3 and here are some pictures of all three next to each other.











Gonna quickly re-do the vet and first cohort shields now.

very good job, as I already said before, I deeply appreciate your mod and my intention was simply to give my small humble advice based on sources I have found and linked. I was a bit surprised only when you said you did not believe the source I linked was a real ancient statue.