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Thread: Catalans rally for independence vote

  1. #1
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Catalans rally for independence vote

    Thousands of Catalans have joined protests against Spain's Constitutional Court after it suspended a proposed regional independence referendum.

    About 5,000 people took to the streets of the regional capital Barcelona to demand their right to vote on Tuesday.

    Earlier, the Catalan government said it was halting its publicity campaign for the referendum while it sought to overturn the court's ruling.

    The vote was suspended after a request from the Spanish central government.

    The court said it needed time to consider arguments about whether the 9 November vote breached the country's constitution.

    While the court studies the appeals, all campaigning must stop until it makes a ruling.

    The Catalan regional government said it would stop publicity but insisted it would try to overturn the suspension.

    Francesc Homs, a Catalan government spokesman, said they were "determined" the vote would go ahead.

    The Catalan National Assembly, an influential group lobbying for independence, was behind the protests in a rainy Barcelona on Tuesday night.

    "Not rain nor snow nor any court will stop us," Carme Forcadell, the group's leader, told reporters. "On November 9 we will vote and we will win."
    Source

    Perhaps it is also time for a decentralization construction in Spain?
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
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    G-Megas-Doux's Avatar Vicarius
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    For those armatures who wish to decide on the legality of the secession based on the Spanish Constitution here it is in English.

    http://www.congreso.es/portal/page/p...o_ingles_0.pdf

    Just some observations from the constitution

    In the Preliminary Part
    Section one states this, "National sovereignty belongs to the Spanish people, from whom all State powers emanate."
    Section two states this, "The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards; it recognises and guarantees the right to selfgovernment of the nationalities and regions of which it is composed and the solidarity among them all."
    Section twentynine part 1, "All Spaniards shall have the right to individual and collective petition, in writing, in the manner and subject to the consequences tobe laid down by law."

    Section Eightyseven
    "1. Legislative initiative belongs to the Government, the Congress and the Senate, in accordance with the Constitution and the Standing Orders of the Houses.
    2. The Assemblies of Self-governing Communities may request the Government to adopt a bill or may refer a non-governmental bill to the Bureau of Congress and delegate a maximum of three Assembly members to defend it.
    3. An organic act shall lay down the manner and the requirements of the popular initiative for submission of non-governmental bills. In any case, no less than 500.000 authenticated signatures shall be required. This initiative shall not be allowed on matters concerning organic acts, taxation, international affairs or the prerogative of pardon."

    Section Nintytwo
    1. Political decisions of special importance may be submitted to all citizens in a consultative referendum.
    2. The referendum shall be called by the King on the President of the Government’s proposal after previous authorization by the Congress.
    3. An organic act shall lay down the terms and procedures for the different kinds of referendum provided for in this Constitution."

    Part VIII
    Territorial Organization of the State
    Chapter 1 General Principles

    Section One hundred and thirtyseven
    "The State is organised territorially into municipalities, provinces and the Self-governing Communities that may be constituted. All these bodies shall enjoy self-government for the management of their respective interests."

    Chapter 2 Local Government
    Section one hundred and forty
    "The Constitution guarantees the autonomy of municipalities. These shall enjoy full legal entity. Their government and administration shall be vested in their Town Councils, consisting of Mayors and councillors. Councillors shall be elected by residents of the municipality by universal, equal, free, direct and secret suffrage, in the manner provided for by the law. The Mayors shall be elected by the councillors or by the residents. The law shall lay down the terms under which an open council of all residents may proceed."

    Section one hundred and forty one
    "1. The province is a local entity, with its own legal entity, arising from the grouping of municipalities, and a territorial division designed to carry out the activities of the State. Any alteration of provincial boundaries must be approved by the Cortes Generales in an organic act."

    Section one hundred and forty eight. It is way to large a section to copy, but what it covers are regarding what the self-governing communities may assume competences over. It does not say they may secede. Further,
    "2. After five years, the Self-governing Communities may, by amendment of their Statutes of Autonomy, progressively enlarge their powers within the framework laid down in section 149."
    Section one hundred and forty nine states many things but still does not authorise secession.
    "3. Matters not expressly assigned to the State by this Constitution may fall under the jurisdiction of the Self-governing Communities by virtue of their Statutes of Autonomy. Jurisdiction on matters not claimed by Statutes of Autonomy shall fall with the State, whose laws shall prevail, in case of conflict, over those of the Self-governing Communities regarding all matters in which exclusive jurisdiction has not been conferred upon the latter. State law shall in any case be suppletory of that of the Selfgoverning Communities."

    Section one hundred and fifty three
    "Control over the bodies of the Self-governing Communities shall be exercised by:
    a) The Constitutional Court, in matters pertaining to the constitutionality of their regulatory provisions having the force of law.
    b) The Government, after the handing down by the Council of State of its opinion, regarding the exercise of delegated functions referred to in section 150, subsection 2.
    c) Jurisdictional bodies of administrative litigation with regard to autonomic administration and its regulations.
    d) The Auditing Court, with regard to financial and budgetary matters."
    Now here is an interesting part for
    section one hundred and fifty five
    1. If a Self-governing Community does not fulfil the obligations imposed upon it by the Constitution or other laws, or acts in a way that is seriously prejudicial to the general interest of Spain, the Government, after having lodged a complaint with the President of the Self-governing Community and failed to receive satisfaction therefore, may, following approval granted by the overall majority of the Senate, take all measures necessary to compel the Community to meet said obligations, or to protect the abovementioned general interest.
    2. With a view to implementing the measures provided for in the foregoing paragraph,the Government may issue instructions to all the authorities of the Self-governing Communities."

    Bellow are my thoughts
    Ultimately the highlighted areas show that secession is against the Constitution of Spain. That referrendums are only in the perview of the courts and not the self governing regions and that the government has the authority to overrule the regional self-government.
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    Aikanár's Avatar no vaseline
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    Default Re: Catalans rally for independence vote

    Moved from the VV.


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    Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Catalans rally for independence vote

    Another failed attempt at secession, which seems to not be allowed under Spanish Constitutional law, so hopefully it will come to naught.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Catalans rally for independence vote

    I just want to express my solidarity with the Catalan people. I support them in this struggle for a referendum. The Catalan people should have the right to decide if they want Independence or not.
    Last edited by Boicote; October 01, 2014 at 07:21 AM.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Catalans rally for independence vote

    Just learn from Scotland. You can't just sweep it under the rug when there's a clear democratic mandate for a referendum, unless you want the separatists to have a rallying cry, so hold it and get it over before there's too much bad will towards Spain.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Catalans rally for independence vote

    I don't see why they want independence, the only reason I've seen so far is that they did well before the recession and now that the recession has caused the country to need them to pay they want out. I'd be happy to learn why it's more complex than that, seems too simple to me.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Catalans rally for independence vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzard View Post
    I don't see why they want independence, the only reason I've seen so far is that they did well before the recession and now that the recession has caused the country to need them to pay they want out. I'd be happy to learn why it's more complex than that, seems too simple to me.
    The Catalan desire for independence is fairly straight forward compared to Scotland. It is a region which is comparably wealthy. It has a distinct culture and an active language which in the countryside is predominant. Historically, Barcelona was the Republican capitol during the Civil War, resisting Franco and the Monarchy until final months of the conflict.

    Of course Juan Carlos rejected dictatorship and transitioned Spain into democracy in the late seventies. But Catalonia's relationship with the Central Government has never been fully repaired. When Juan Carlos abdicated, Republican and Catalan independence flags where naturally flown together.





    So Catalan independence has three main veins, cultural differences, political differences, and economic differences.

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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Catalans rally for independence vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    So Catalan independence has three main veins, cultural differences, political differences, and economic differences.
    That's quite fascinating, but what are the hard concrete numbers in regards to polling on this issue within Catalonia? What existing percentage of Catalans favor independence according to verifiable polls? Polls that would have to be done independently, of course, to assure that there are no biases or discrepancies in the methods of polling, and over a period of time to show changes in opinion or the impact of demographic trends. If it is anything approaching half the population, then do these figures plummet and rise dramatically over time, rendering predictions about a referendum unpredictable?

    According to the poll numbers, Scotland looked very close to voting "yes" on independence, until former Prime Minister Gordon Brown gave those remarkable speeches passionately arguing for Scots to vote "no" in the referendum. However, months before the referendum in September the polls showed a clear advantage for the "no" side. Public opinion really is subject to change and can change with the wind, so to speak. I'm sure there are many proud Catalans as there are proud Scots who desire independence, but the numbers matter. Or rather, in Catalonia's case, the central Spanish government's willingness to entertain the idea in the first place is what matters.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Catalans rally for independence vote

    A lot of little nations are acting like spoiled children lately.

  11. #11
    Treize's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Catalans rally for independence vote

    Catalonia has all the autonomy they could possible desire.
    Miss me yet?

  12. #12

    Default Re: Catalans rally for independence vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Tureuki View Post
    A lot of little nations are acting like spoiled children lately.
    Within living memory Catalonia was held under the boot of a fascist dictatorship. People in Catalonia had fathers and mothers who had fought and died in a brutal war to resist Franco and the Monarchists.

    Juan Carlos did a lot to soften hearts, and Spain has made great democratic strides. But it is insulting to call Catalans who do not desire to continue being part of the Spanish Monarchy childish. I find it entirely reasonable.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Catalans rally for independence vote

    The problem with a Catalonia referendum is that it would probably succeed, though their football league will become rather boring.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Catalans rally for independence vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Treize View Post
    Catalonia has all the autonomy they could possible desire.
    I am under the impression that Catalonia wants 100% of regional tax be kept in Catalonia, and Madrid still needs to continue all the benefits they give to Catalonia - in other words, Catalonia is demanding to be like Benghazi.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  15. #15

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    Don't be fooled is all about money. Catalonia has more autonomy than in its whole history. People have been brain washed since children about the idea of the oppressor central state that steal its money, when in % Catalonia is better treated than other spanish territories. Catalonian people are only informed about the good and romantic points of independence but not a bit about the bad consequences of It. Bad for the rest of Spain and Catalonia itself. It is another trick of the bad politicians in Spain that want to change the attention of the real problems to be solved.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Catalans rally for independence vote

    So Scotland but more extreme?

  17. #17
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Catalans rally for independence vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazzard View Post
    So Scotland but more extreme?
    Oh well, I am under the impression that Scotland also wants 100% revenue be kept in Scotland while London continues all the benefits to Scotland, so Catalonia probably is not too extreme.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  18. #18

    Default Re: Catalans rally for independence vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    The Catalan desire for independence is fairly straight forward compared to Scotland. It is a region which is comparably wealthy. It has a distinct culture and an active language which in the countryside is predominant. Historically, Barcelona was the Republican capitol during the Civil War, resisting Franco and the Monarchy until final months of the conflict.

    Of course Juan Carlos rejected dictatorship and transitioned Spain into democracy in the late seventies. But Catalonia's relationship with the Central Government has never been fully repaired. When Juan Carlos abdicated, Republican and Catalan independence flags where naturally flown together.





    So Catalan independence has three main veins, cultural differences, political differences, and economic differences.



    First of all I am in favor of the right of self-determination of peoples. But it bothers me that you casually forget that Madrid was the last bastion in resisting Franco.


    Barcelona never was the republic capitol, maybe cultural or economic most important city. Capitol was in Madrid since 1561 and while the Madrid siege by Franco, politicians and goverment run the hell out and escape to Valencia but Madrid Still would hold until the end. When Madrid was taken, the war ended.

    We all know that our "Transition" was a fake. Same fascists rule the country today but we are many republicans in all regions or nations of Spain, not just in Catalonia.
    The independence of Catalonia is not driven just by a republican sentiment. It is only catalan nationalism. You have quite legitimate reasons, such as culture, language and what you want, you do not justify yourself omitting missing data and untruthfully.


    Interestingly, the Catalan oligarchy has not been interested in independence in no time, but now you have to divert the attention of austerity, cuts and corruption.


    Nationalism is the best tool to divide at impera. The independence movement is directed from the elites, supported by the Catalan government and media. Not run by the people and that's what saddens me a little.


    Most of the Catalan Left knows this, but prefer to jump on the bandwagon, taking the opportunity and once they are independent settle with the Catalan oligarchy.


    That I just reaffirm that people are overwhelmingly in favor of independence, but this whole process has been orchestrated from above, just by economic interests of an oligarchy who their only homeland is money.




    internationalist solidarity greetings from Castile.



    Last edited by gaNGso; October 02, 2014 at 03:09 AM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Catalans rally for independence vote

    Looks like the French had the right idea to impose one language. You have to be extremely self-confident to permit regions to keep their respective languages.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Catalans rally for independence vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Condottiere 40K View Post
    Looks like the French had the right idea to impose one language. You have to be extremely self-confident to permit regions to keep their respective languages.
    You're right . But the union of the nations that make up Spain today was made by marriages between royal houses not by conquest.

    Some monarchs as Alfonso X pushed for the Castilian as the official language .

    but for example with the marriage of the Catholic Monarchs , Isabel and Fernando , the Kingdom of Castile and Kingdom of Aragon ( which included Catalonia ) joined but each maintained its own laws and autonomy.

    The nations were only possessions of the king of turn.

    Franco also tried to homogenize the country, but brute force is not convincing .

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