Creative Assembly Business Practice Discussion Thread (Attila)

[texoman81]

I didn't. I said I wasn't going to continue the argument.

Until the end of 2015, when I predicted sales of Rome II will have surpassed 1.8 million units and you have predicted they won't be past 1.5 million.

yet you are continuing You won't accept any figures for the end of 2015 because that isn't a fiscal year. Well even if it is 1.8 instead of 1.5 at the end of next year all my bigger points hold up. I have readily admitted that any numbers any of us give for the future are estimates and some variation is to be expected. 1.8 is still a lot less than Empire will have sold at that point even though Rome II cost more to make and advertise. There isn't that much of a different between our expectations anyway. Post release sales are no where near pre-order rates so people were disappointed in the game they actually produced compared to what they promised. Pre-Orders were the highest for any total war game ever, but total sales will end up being one of the lowest, even though that included the pre-orders. The decisions CA and Sega made on Rome II are costing them money, even if sales reach your expectations instead of mine.

[Aenima]

of course many successful companies ask their customers what they want in many different ways. How can you say both that it is irrational and arrogant to submit suggestions to CA, then say that CA does monitor these suggestion and have implemented many of them. Wouldn't it be easier to start building the game based on what the community want instead of putting in nonsense then having to remove it later? They'd only be dammed regardless if you are assuming that they would ignore the suggestions. If they included the suggestions they would be praised and would make a lot more money.

I'm not denying that companies don't ask/don't listen to feedback, but I don't expect anyone to drop by from CA and say "so, guys, what do you want us to put in the game?" and expect them to follow through with it. I didn't say it was irrational/arrogant to ask CA for stuff - I said I was leaning towards the idea of it being unreasonable to expect them to come here, ask us what we want and then put it in-game. I didn't want Rome 2's unit cards to have their design, even before release. I doubt me telling them that would have made a difference. As for my "damned if they do, damned if they don't" they would definitely get criticised by people because they definitely wouldn't implement everything/most things that people would ask for. Look at all the different mods on this site, the differences in gameplay etc that they all have. If CA catered to one group (say, super long battles) then they'd alienate and annoy everyone else who asked for only moderately long / medium length / short / super short battles. And so on.

[texoman81]

I'm not denying that companies don't ask/don't listen to feedback, but I don't expect anyone to drop by from CA and say "so, guys, what do you want us to put in the game?" and expect them to follow through with it. I didn't say it was irrational/arrogant to ask CA for stuff - I said I was leaning towards the idea of it being unreasonable to expect them to come here, ask us what we want and then put it in-game. I didn't want Rome 2's unit cards to have their design, even before release. I doubt me telling them that would have made a difference. As for my "damned if they do, damned if they don't" they would definitely get criticised by people because they definitely wouldn't implement everything/most things that people would ask for. Look at all the different mods on this site, the differences in gameplay etc that they all have. If CA catered to one group (say, super long battles) then they'd alienate and annoy everyone else who asked for only moderately long / medium length / short / super short battles. And so on.

except they did ask us just that repetitively. If they aren't going to follow through with it why ask? Yes no matter what they do some will be unhappy, they should try to do what will make most of their customers happy and have less complaints. The best thing for CA is to make as much as possible optional or able to be changed by mods. They should look back to how they handled Medieval II. Very few people complained about anything with that game.

[Aenima]

except they did ask us just that repetitively.

So you think that Lionheart's wrong when he asks "Why is CA not asking questions for ideas in Atilla?"

Cool, discussion over then!

[La Migra]

When I first saw the trailer for Attila I told myself, Self! they got to be kidding, Barbarian Invasion Part 2, just another rehash game, C'mon CA, Let start thinking outside the Sega box. Where's The Guns of August earliest stages of World War I, China The Warring States Period (475-221 BC, The American Civil War to name a few, Dear Lord what's next "Nero Burning Rome!

[dalapto]

The Creative Assembly's Money-Making Game-Creating Instruction Manual:
1. Over-Hype with a New Game
2. Under-Playtest that New Game
3. ???????????????
4. Success
5. Refuse to fix your 'Success' completely
6. Repeat

Empire ----> Napoleon
Rome II ----> Attila
Will the cycle be broken? Will we have another epic and memorable game? Perhaps not until after Attila - if history is anything to go by.

[vaneeliuse]

After RTW2, I'll not buy another CA TW game until they design a new engine. Lazy game making and profit driven release schedules are ruining a once great series. Thank you SEGA.

[Ghostlizards25]

1. CA READ YOUR FORUMS NO ONE WANTS ROTAL WAR ATILLA BECAUSE IT IS THE MOST STUPID IDEA EVER IN ALL THE FORUMS NO ONE WANTED ROTAL WAR ATILLA.
2. Make the game cheaper than rome 2
3. Add India
4. Warring states DLC would be nice
5. Viking age DLC would be cool too
6. Add china, the huns raided china and india
7. Add more units (CA also needs more research on units)
I really don't care foe family trees but I want india and more units

[LestaT]

1. CA READ YOUR FORUMS NO ONE WANTS ROTAL WAR ATILLA BECAUSE IT IS THE MOST STUPID IDEA EVER IN ALL THE FORUMS NO ONE WANTED ROTAL WAR ATILLA.
2. Make the game cheaper than rome 2
3. Add India
4. Warring states DLC would be nice
5. Viking age DLC would be cool too
6. Add china, the huns raided china and india
7. Add more units (CA also needs more research on units)
I really don't care foe family trees but I want india and more units

1. Some people want.
2. It will be.
3. Not needed.
4. That will be a new game on 64 bit engine which come out in 2017 and name Total War : Emperors
6. That's for Medieval II which will come in 2025
7. Wait for unit pack DLCs.

[Abdülmecid I]

2. It will be.

Any source for that?

3. Not needed.

In your opinion. For me, the Gupta Empire would add an exotic flavour to the game. At least eastern Iran should have been added, to simulate the fighting between the Persians and the Hepthalites.

[Karnil Vark Khaitan]

In your opinion. For me, the Gupta Empire would add an exotic flavour to the game. At least eastern Iran should have been added, to simulate the fighting between the Persians and the Hepthalites.

We also need to realise then to compromise and not fall to feature-creeping.

[texoman81]

I dont think you plan day one free lc, you include them if you dont have time to include them on the disk. And many digital downloads are apperantly from discs.

CA does plan them. They usually give one free faction along with the 3 they charge for. Its the same before or after release. Instead of just including one more faction in the original game they want to pretend they are giving us something "free" to make us more willing to buy DLC. It is almost 3 months before release and they just announced 10 playable faction and have decided to make the next one "free" DLC instead of just including it in the base game as they clearly have time to do. Also these faction are all definitely in the game its just a question of making them playable. You really believe that they are going to have time to include traits for and missions for 10 factions but there will be one more that isn't quite finished just like it happened last time? They will continue to break the game into bits and pieces. Some they will sell us one at a time, others they will give us for free to make them seem generous. Some people will then overlook other things they do in gratitude for the "free" content and be more willing to give them more money.

[Achilles Lacedaemon]

CA does plan them. They usually give one free faction along with the 3 they charge for. Its the same before or after release. Instead of just including one more faction in the original game they want to pretend they are giving us something "free" to make us more willing to buy DLC. It is almost 3 months before release and they just announced 10 playable faction and have decided to make the next one "free" DLC instead of just including it in the base game as they clearly have time to do. Also these faction are all definitely in the game its just a question of making them playable. You really believe that they are going to have time to include traits for and missions for 10 factions but there will be one more that isn't quite finished just like it happened last time? They will continue to break the game into bits and pieces. Some they will sell us one at a time, others they will give us for free to make them seem generous. Some people will then overlook other things they do in gratitude for the "free" content and be more willing to give them more money.

Haha, yep.

Its funny how people get blindly conformed by such things, some even defending said practices with nails and teeth.

Its funny because when the Black Sea Colonies DLC was announced, toguether with Massalia for free, everyone was like " Yay thank you CA for making Massalia playable, I was waiting so long for this. ", basically ignoring the situation, and also ignoring that those 4 factions were already unlocked by the modding community, with their own made unique units, traits, victory conditions, descriptions, and all the stuff.

since they certainly knew they could play as those factions with even better enhancement since almost the release of Rome II, and what CA did was nothing explendid, in fact it didnt " released " ANY faction, it just locked 3 of them. This is not like they are selling parts of the game to us, but rather taking what the community already does own, cutting it off and then charging for it. Its a whole new level.

[Mhaedros]

Haha, yep.

Its funny how people get blindly conformed by such things, some even defending said practices with nails and teeth.

Its funny because when the Black Sea Colonies DLC was announced, toguether with Massalia for free, everyone was like " Yay thank you CA for making Massalia playable, I was waiting so long for this. ", basically ignoring the situation, and also ignoring that those 4 factions were already unlocked by the modding community, with their own made unique units, traits, victory conditions, descriptions, and all the stuff.

since they certainly knew they could play as those factions with even better enhancement since almost the release of Rome II, and what CA did was nothing explendid, in fact it didnt " released " ANY faction, it just locked 3 of them. This is not like they are selling parts of the game to us, but rather taking what the community already does own, cutting it off and then charging for it. Its a whole new level.

The community doesn't "own" anything, and if CA wants to sell faction DLC that's entirely up to CA. If you play with mods that already have unlocked the factions, then great, and if someone wants to buy the DLC then it's entirely up to them.

Sure, it might not be the best way to go about it, but is it really that different from, say, some of the unit packs for Crusader Kings 2? The pack isn't essential to the game, nobody is forced to buy it, and if someone doesn't want to buy it you can use mods to get it anyway. And if someone choses to support a game developer that sadly is under the paw of Sega, and who knows what bloody Sega will do with it if the Total War franchise isn't successful enough for their liking, is it really the end of the world?

/Sorry for rant, I guess it was a bit off topic, should probably belong in a business practise thread or something.

[texoman81]

The community doesn't "own" anything, and if CA wants to sell faction DLC that's entirely up to CA. If you play with mods that already have unlocked the factions, then great, and if someone wants to buy the DLC then it's entirely up to them.

Sure, it might not be the best way to go about it, but is it really that different from, say, some of the unit packs for Crusader Kings 2? The pack isn't essential to the game, nobody is forced to buy it, and if someone doesn't want to buy it you can use mods to get it anyway. And if someone choses to support a game developer that sadly is under the paw of Sega, and who knows what bloody Sega will do with it if the Total War franchise isn't successful enough for their liking, is it really the end of the world?

/Sorry for rant, I guess it was a bit off topic, should probably belong in a business practise thread or something.

If i don't "own" anything why have i given Sega hundreds of dollars over the years? No one has said CA doesn't have the legal right to sell their games the way they want, we are just saying we don't like it and aren't going to keep paying for DLC that is not worth it. Its not our choice to keep playing the factions with mods like we were before, CA is retroactively locking factions once they include them in DLC. If we could continue to use mods to get the factions we wouldn't be complaining. They are trying to force us to buy. The factions were include in the game, its the simple matter of a single value being changed to "playable". Its funny that someone who is content staff is making the argument that CA can do whatever they want and we can't complain and even if Sega stops making TW games all together it doesn't matter. In that case why have TWC?

[Achilles Lacedaemon]

The community doesn't "own" anything, and if CA wants to sell faction DLC that's entirely up to CA. If you play with mods that already have unlocked the factions, then great, and if someone wants to buy the DLC then it's entirely up to them.

Sure, it might not be the best way to go about it, but is it really that different from, say, some of the unit packs for Crusader Kings 2? The pack isn't essential to the game, nobody is forced to buy it, and if someone doesn't want to buy it you can use mods to get it anyway. And if someone choses to support a game developer that sadly is under the paw of Sega, and who knows what bloody Sega will do with it if the Total War franchise isn't successful enough for their liking, is it really the end of the world?

/Sorry for rant, I guess it was a bit off topic, should probably belong in a business practise thread or something.

I wont keep replying since I dont want to destroy this thread, so the only thing I'm replying to, that maybe you might not be aware of, is: " Once CA releases those DLC, mods concerning them must be deleted ". This is not charity, neither a choice to support the devs. And if you want an exactly good example of what's happening, then take Darthmod Empire, with its own features of faction unlocking and expanded rosters, or many other mods for ETW such as Imperial Destroyer Project by Lordsith, and lets say CA decided to make all factions in ETW as DLC. Following that those mods would have to perish, since most of the changes they make are concerning the already existing factions, like making them playable and adding stuff to them, save for AI changes and etc.. Of couse, once a faction is locked as DLC, new mods can be made for them, but it is dishonest to charge for something that is already free. If I did play Rome II with the mod Divide Et Impera as one of those last 3 factions, before they were dlc, I would now have to pay for the DLC so that I could play with them again ( since I cant anymore ) the same way I did before ( that is if said mod still supports them ).

It would be different if, lets say, Athens were not included in the game ( like if it was just a terrytory belonging to Macedon ) and CA decided to create them as a faction and charge for them, THAT would be fair and understandable, even if at that point there were mods that already did created Athens as a faction.

What is happening, on the other hand, could be described by the same example as if Athens was already in the game from the beggining, just not playable, and the community developed mods that would immerse this faction and turn it playable, but then right after that the Developers decide to charge for something that the mods already managed to create in a even more simplified way, and lock/limit the existing mods, nulling them.

[Mhaedros]

No one has said CA doesn't have the legal right to sell their games the way they want, we are just saying we don't like it and aren't going to keep paying for DLC that is not worth it. Its not our choice to keep playing the factions with mods like we were before, CA is retroactively locking factions once they include them in DLC. If we could continue to use mods to get the factions we wouldn't be complaining. They are trying to force us to buy. The factions were include in the game, its the simple matter of a single value being changed to "playable". Its funny that someone who is staff content is making the argument that CA can do whatever they want and we can't complain and even if Sega stops making TW games all together it doesn't matter. In that case why have TWC?

It is yours as it is my freedom to debate all of these issues, otherwise I wouldn't have replied in the first place. Surely the point of forums is discussion? If the sold factions are locked at the same time they are sold, that's obviously an issue, I didn't realise this was the case, but then the only thing to do about it is to, as you say yourself, not buy the DLC.

Whether I am part of Content or not is irrelevant to my personal opinions, and as it happens, I do believe CA has the right to do whatever they want. It would be ideal if they balanced everything they did with how the consumer base reacts to it (which they do, though not in the amounts many would like them to), but if they chose not to then it's their choice to do so, and ultimately their loss as they lose customers.

[texoman81]

It is yours as it is my freedom to debate all of these issues, otherwise I wouldn't have replied in the first place. Surely the point of forums is discussion? If the sold factions are locked at the same time they are sold, that's obviously an issue, I didn't realise this was the case, but then the only thing to do about it is to, as you say yourself, not buy the DLC.

Whether I am part of Content or not is irrelevant to my personal opinions, and as it happens, I do believe CA has the right to do whatever they want. It would be ideal if they balanced everything they did with how the consumer base reacts to it (which they do, though not in the amounts many would like them to), but if they chose not to then it's their choice to do so, and ultimately their loss as they lose customers.

If we thought they didn't have the right to do it, we would be filing lawsuits not giving our opinions on forums. Their rights are not in question. You aren't debating our points you are just stating obvious things that are barely related. Our options are to not to buy it and tell CA why on these forums. Doing so has led to improvement to R2, but more is needed. There is no if to it, whenever CA releases DLC that makes a faction playable, mods can no longer make those factions playable without the DLC as they were able to before the DLC was released. People have been complaining about this since R2 was released. As more and more DLC is released, less and less factions are available through mods and the more it costs if you simply want to be able to play with all factions like you could at launch. I believe it currently costs $73 dollars (on top of the initial $60) to be able to play with all factions. It was not like this in previous TW games. The DLC doesn't add enough of value to make them worth purchasing, so CA is basically trying to extort us into buying.

[DavidtheDuke]

If we thought they didn't have the right to do it, we would be filing lawsuits not giving our opinions on forums. Their rights are not in question. You aren't debating our points you are just stating obvious things that are barely related. Our options are to not to buy it and tell CA why on these forums. Doing so has led to improvement to R2, but more is needed. There is no if to it, whenever CA releases DLC that makes a faction playable, mods can no longer make those factions playable without the DLC as they were able to before the DLC was released. People have been complaining about this since R2 was released. As more and more DLC is released, less and less factions are available through mods and the more it costs if you simply want to be able to play with all factions like you could at launch. I believe it currently costs $73 dollars (on top of the initial $60) to be able to play with all factions. It was not like this in previous TW games. The DLC doesn't add enough of value to make them worth purchasing, so CA is basically trying to extort us into buying.

I don't think many people would mind if they actually just increased the price of the game and/or made things early access, or explicitly admitted they wanted more money for the DLC content. I think alot of people just don't like the -eating grin they have while they being duplicitous.

[JackDionne]

I was just over to the CA forum and noticed again, how fast the moderators close threads when negativity is perceived. I don't think they are doing themselves any favors, just pissing people off even more.