Are Americans Too Stupid For Democracy?

[Hazzard]

But it is misleading to show them as better when they oick and choose.
In the UK it's mostly the Muslim schools that are problematic and we're supposed to have Ofsted to find the problems.

[kesa82]

But it is misleading to show them as better when they oick and choose.

I suppose I gave that impression.
But I don't disagree with that. I don't think private / religious schools are better.
Just as I don't think privilege entirely or even primarily comes down to money.
If I recall correctly , Bill Clinton was the son of a single mother. So rags to riches ? I doubt it .
A mother who works with you instead of against you is worth a million dollars.
Whole battalions of PH. D's who talk a good game but in the end only fill their own rice bowls are worth exactly nothing.
That is , I think the schools have little to do with it.
Plenty of doctors and lawyers come out of the public schools.
I've kept tabs on my graduating class over the past 25 years. The funny thing is that by and large I could have predicted when I was 13 how people's lives would have turned out with about 80% accuracy. I'm not psychic though , and needless to say that at 13 I wouldn't have been reffering to any elaborate social science.

I'm on shakey ground where the European context is concerned. I don't really know the context.
The United States is based on individuality , so necessarily a lot comes down to the individual and the individuals relation to other specific individuals.
The system itself was informed by people who by their actions displayed scant regard for the system , like the British Colonel George Washington and the Rome- subsidized Martin Luther.
Given that , I can't imagine why anyone takes the forms seriously.

[Vonwolfi]

There is a difference between stupidity, and willful ignorance and/or amorality. There is also a difference between stupidity, and naivete, lethargy, and fear of unbalancing the status quo.

Americans arent stupid, they are simply more comfortable than they are willing to face the long term, or the ills that they enable.

Atleast that's my perception.

[Symphony]

No more so than any other democracy.

Next question?

[conon394]

I suppose I gave that impression.
But I don't disagree with that. I don't think private / religious schools are better.
Just as I don't think privilege entirely or even primarily comes down to money.
If I recall correctly , Bill Clinton was the son of a single mother. So rags to riches ? I doubt it .
A mother who works with you instead of against you is worth a million dollars.
Whole battalions of PH. D's who talk a good game but in the end only fill their own rice bowls are worth exactly nothing.
That is , I think the schools have little to do with it.
Plenty of doctors and lawyers come out of the public schools.
I've kept tabs on my graduating class over the past 25 years. The funny thing is that by and large I could have predicted when I was 13 how people's lives would have turned out with about 80% accuracy. I'm not psychic though , and needless to say that at 13 I wouldn't have been reffering to any elaborate social science.

I'm on shakey ground where the European context is concerned. I don't really know the context.
The United States is based on individuality , so necessarily a lot comes down to the individual and the individuals relation to other specific individuals.
The system itself was informed by people who by their actions displayed scant regard for the system , like the British Colonel George Washington and the Rome- subsidized Martin Luther.
Given that , I can't imagine why anyone takes the forms seriously.

Maybe with better editing I understand what hell you are talking about

Whole battalions of PH. D's who talk a good game but in the end only fill their own rice bowls are worth exactly nothing.

So you know what no PhD's? You spend maybe a third of your life to learn how to be a recognized expert in a field of science or humanities and your not allowed to have a bowl of rice? What exactly is your criticism here? You made sort of the same remark earlier. A PhD in the non science field is walking the walk as theirs is fairly low paying career for all its work unless they manage a good and popular book at the right time.

In the hard sciences well yes wages are better, or can be better but most that I've known went through the ringer because they loved, liked or wanted to do what they do and are good at it - what is your beef here.

The system itself was informed by people who by their actions displayed scant regard for the system , like the British Colonel George Washington and the Rome- subsidized Martin Luther.

So the system can never be questioned or altered or simply abandoned? Good thing you were not giving advice to Abe Lincoln

As to the secular , George Washington had the King's commission , and John Adams was admitted to the bar under the Crown . Great patriots in other words.

And they likely would have stayed that way had the system accommodated at least some of the valid demands of its colonial subjects - but it did not. Adams took the bar under the existing system - how could he not? He certainly spent rather a lot effort on asking for reform and dialogue - he simply did not get anything except STFU. Even after the bullets started a valid reform program from Parliament would have easily ended the rebellion.

[Ecthelion]

I'll let Mr. Asimov weigh in on this one:

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”

[conon394]

But he was a elitist prat

So he was vastly experienced and had knowledge of everything expertise in everything?

What democracy is just your bias and apparent real knowledge or actual knowledge in some things and ignorance in many others does not have right trump the same of mine (same list) all the time.

[Hazzard]

I think the knowledge vs ignorance quote is best applied to America's War on Terror.
America gets 9\11.
Americans believe foreign intervention is the best way to prevent further attacks.
Experts find evidence that proves otherwise.
American people still believe in foreign intervention.

[Ecthelion]

I think the knowledge vs ignorance quote is best applied to America's War on Terror.
America gets 9\11.
Americans believe foreign intervention is the best way to prevent further attacks.
Experts find evidence that proves otherwise.
American people still believe in foreign intervention.

A bit odd to apply a quotation to a specific event with no real precedence long after the person who said it died... But I do see your point.

As for Issac being a bit elitist. Well yes, he was, but it's hard not to be when you're that smart and well educated.

What he's saying here is spot on true though.
Democracy, or specifically, universal suffrage, gives everyone the false impression that their entirely unqualified, naive political opinions are material to the nation. If the people were really smart enough to run their own nation purely by referendum, then we wouldn't need a government, we'd need a team of clerks.

The fact that the government needs to make decisions often against popular opinion is proof that the masses (largely regardless of country) are incapable of "true" democracy in the Classical Athenian sense.

I'll give you the classic example:

Roosevelt and the Second World War

FDR knew that the US had to intervene in Europe if the Germans were to be defeated, and more importantly, if Europe was to be saved from the USSR. But this level of high international politics is beyond the comprehension of the common, isolationist minded American at the time.

Thus Washington engineered a series of embargoes and provocations to get Japan (which it knew had a habit of starting wars first, and declaring them later) to attack the US. When Japanese Imperial Naval communiqué intercepts confirmed that an attack was imminent on Pearl Harbor, Washington deliberately did not inform the US Navy, realizing that the greater the shock of the attack, the greater the political capital to spend to bring the war to Nazi Germany in force.

In other words, the American public was manipulated to enter the war against its own prewar opinions. And because of it, Europe and East Asia were saved from the Axis and the USSR. Democracy had to be circumvented for the good of the free world.

[Ludicus]

Washington engineered a series of embargoes and provocations to get Japan... to attack the US

Yes...

When Japanese Imperial Naval communiqué intercepts confirmed that an attack was imminent on Pearl Harbor, Washington deliberately did not inform the US Navy,

Or not. Hmm... it's hard to believe.Is there any reliable source?

[Ecthelion]

Or not. Hmm... it's hard to believe.Is there any reliable source?

It's an extremely complicated issue. One important enough to warrant 10 official inquiries on the part of the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_H...spiracy_theory

You can read up on it and come to your own conclusions. My personal interpretation is that someone important in Washington, quite possibly FDR himself, was aware of an impending attack on American naval assets in the Pacific by the Japanese. Pearl Harbor is the obvious target. So not making any substantial preparations either diplomatically or militarily for such an attack strains credulity unless we assume that the administration wanted the attack to take place in the first place.

Ultimately, the attack worked to the great advantage of the US as there was never any question in anyone's mind, including that of the Japanese naval command, that the US would crush Japan. A few thousand sailors and half the peacetime Pacific Fleet was a small price to pay to save Europe from the Nazis and Soviets.

You should also keep in mind that every single major and even minor American military action since the Spanish-American War has been mired in controversy with respect to what triggered the war. From the sinking of the Maine (which was known at the time to have been an accident, not a Spanish attack) to Gulf of Tonkin, to the 2003 invasion of Iraq under the false pretense of "WMDs", the US has been manipulating public opinion for war using false evidence and or false flag attacks.