Dragonball Z topic.

[Inhuman One]

Another thing that always seemed strange was the Senzu beans.

Whenever they where given lots of them, they seem to run out of them very fast while logically they would have more.

Also, why did they not give Goku a Sensu bean after he was nearly killed by Vegeta? He could have gone along to Namek then. That was just one of many stupid plot reasons for Goku to be not present and swoop in later to save the day after everyone else fails.

[Knight of Heaven]

Also, why did they not give Goku a Sensu bean after he was nearly killed by Vegeta?

They didnt had any. If i recall yajirobe said he needed time to grow them.

[Inhuman One]

They did not use that many though during the fight with the Saiyans. I believe he only gave Krillin one and had one himself.. and they didnt use one for years it seems.

You'd think that knowing a year ahead of time of this danger that they'd try to grow more or something.

[SLN445]

I doubt it would've been as interesting if Goku was on Namek from the beginning
Senzu beans are just a plot device to keep certain characters in the fight until they are no longer needed.

[Knight of Heaven]

I dont know senzu beans where part of the original Dragon ball as well.

They did not use that many though during the fight with the Saiyans.

watch it again
They didnt had any, Goku when is brought to life, he makes a stop in karin tower, who gives him only 2. Wich he then uses on Gohan, and on Krilin wich were basicaly passed out. If i recall correctly... it was something like that.
Later on Yajirobe gives goku a bag full of beans before the trip to namek, in wich Goku uses them alot during his training in the spaceship, when he arrives on namek he uses them again on krilin, Gohan, and Vegeta, and then he runs out of them.

[Inhuman One]

True, they used a few against the saiyans. But not many. Goku did kind of waste those sensu beans in his training but I gues its part of what made him stronger.

Then again, seemed Vegeta was only a zenkai away from being able to beat the ginyu force considering how easily he took out Jeice. I dont think he would have been much weaker than Goku at that point.

Speaking of Zenkai boosts, they seem to have completely dropped that after the frieza saga. I mean.. seems to me that Vegeta would have gotten a lot stronger after he got beaten up by eightteen and Cell. I'd have prefered that over the time chamber actually. And silly fusions and the rediculous saiyan 3 transformation.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I've been watching Dragon Ball since I was about 2 years old.
Best fight I think was the original battle between Goku and Vegeta. But I was seriously disturbed at how over powered Goku had become when even the likes of Tien or Piccolo didn't stand a chance against Nappa. Back in Dragon Ball Tien was one of the strongest heroes in the show comparable to Goku and Master Roshi. Piccolo was probably the strongest villain from the old series (the other strongest must have been Demon King Piccolo).

Also I recall in Dragon Ball Yamcha putting up more of a fight than Krillin and somehow Krillin surpassed him in strength which makes no sense. Perhaps it was because Krillin was given a power boost by Guru on the planet Namek and Yamcha was dead at the time so he didn't benefit.

[Derpy Hooves]

As soon as Goku grew up, the series started going downhill.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I really didn't have any issues with the series until the Cell saga or after the Cell saga. Felt like everything leading up to the Frieza saga was great but after that it lost cohesion from a story perspective. I really think it should have been connected as one story but instead became a bunch of random and loosely connected arcs.

[Inhuman One]

I'd have loved to see Yamcha do more fighting yes. And you hit the nail right on the head about the arcs not being that connected.

For the android saga, an army of weaker androids could have been made to support 19 and 20. This would have allowed ALL Z fighters a time to shine in battle. It would be a revival of the red ribbon army pretty much. 17 and 18 could be the back up plan once the army fails and 19 is destroyed, and Cell would of course pop up as well. Through this, it would tie in better with the old red ribbon saga. Perhaps one of the Red Ribbon commanders could have been kind of remade as an android too, with their personality.

As for the Buu saga.. There should not have been a Buu. For starters they could have had the full tournament with the Z fighters. I was more interested in that to be honest. Also a great throwback to the dragonball series.
The other villains here could be kept though, Babidi could be focused on reawakening the evil in people's hearts. In the finale of Goku vs Vegeta, the evil in Vegeta could be awakened by Babidi. Same for Piccolo. Possibly others could be put under that controll as well. Dabura could play a larger role too.

Gohan would be forced to reluctantly fight against Piccolo, when his own mentor tries to kill him. Sure he is stronger, but he wouldnt want to kill Piccolo. And he neglected his training.

The other Z fighters could fight against Yamu and Spopovich, and maybe more people like that. Gives them something to do too.

Finding out how to break the spell could be the trick, and this is where the Grand Kai and Kibito could come into play with some ritual.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I'd have loved to see Yamcha do more fighting yes. And you hit the nail right on the head about the arcs not being that connected.

For the android saga, an army of weaker androids could have been made to support 19 and 20. This would have allowed ALL Z fighters a time to shine in battle. It would be a revival of the red ribbon army pretty much. 17 and 18 could be the back up plan once the army fails and 19 is destroyed, and Cell would of course pop up as well. Through this, it would tie in better with the old red ribbon saga. Perhaps one of the Red Ribbon commanders could have been kind of remade as an android too, with their personality.

Well my reason for saying that the arcs should have been connected in Dragon Ball Z is because it seems to have lost the adventurous spirit of Dragon Ball. Dragon Ball was about martial arts and adventures across the world (which is one thing I enjoyed about Dragon Ball GT that they took that concept on a wider setting across the galaxy). Dragon Ball Z seems to have been specifically about fighting and I think some arcs could have connected to Dragon Ball and to it's own story so that it was more cohesive. For instance you mentioned the Red Ribbon Army which is a good reference in the Cell saga. In some of the movies they add more to the Piccolo saga by adding new villains like Garlic JR and all sorts of other stuff, that would have been good as an arc I think and it could be good for Piccolo as a character.

I liked the Frieza saga in that it seemed to have brought everything full circle concerning how Dragon Ball Z started and some of the things in Dragon Ball (like why the hell Goku turns into a giant monkey and his origin story basically). I would have many times preferred if the Broly movie was made into an actual part of the show to continue the story about the Saiyans and if Broly had a little more of a personality and character arc (and I liked that they kept this going in GT with the Baby saga, honestly thought this was one of the best ideas the franchise ever had and the best thing to come out of GT, as we all know the issues that GT had but to actually resurrect the historical nemesis of the Saiyans was brilliant). I think it would have been totally badass if an army of Saiyans popped out of space intent on creating the Saiyan master race and killing Vegeta whom they saw as a weak ruler for submitting to Frieza. Hell maybe Vegeta could accomplish his transformation into a Super Saiyan during this event rather than randomly and for no reason. Maybe he could actually save the day for once? As I recall him being rather weak during this film and all the ones after this until the Majin Buu saga (he was stomped like a little against 18 and 17). Maybe we could even write Turles in here and go more into the Saiyan's history and more about Bardock and King Vegeta maybe. At some point Cooler might also be introduced. I know it sounds like I'm trying to erase the movies but actually I liked them so much that I think they should have had more with their characters and built into the main story.

I like your idea about the Cell saga, they could have brought back some villains too like maybe Colonel Black or the mercenary Tao Pai Pai but with enhancements to make them much more powerful so that they could at least provide a decent fight for some of the non-Saiyan protagonists. Maybe even bring back some of the side characters from that arc in Dragon Ball like Eighter and that Indian chief guy. Also try to work in the android movie with those other androids (I think it was 13, 14 and 15).
I like that Krillin had more to do though but Yamcha just got screwed over early on (died against a Saibaman!!!) but so did Tien who was arguably the third strongest protagonist and he could barely even fight Nappa.

As for the Buu saga.. There should not have been a Buu. For starters they could have had the full tournament with the Z fighters. I was more interested in that to be honest. Also a great throwback to the dragonball series.
The other villains here could be kept though, Babidi could be focused on reawakening the evil in people's hearts. In the finale of Goku vs Vegeta, the evil in Vegeta could be awakened by Babidi. Same for Piccolo. Possibly others could be put under that controll as well. Dabura could play a larger role too.

Gohan would be forced to reluctantly fight against Piccolo, when his own mentor tries to kill him. Sure he is stronger, but he wouldnt want to kill Piccolo. And he neglected his training.

The other Z fighters could fight against Yamu and Spopovich, and maybe more people like that. Gives them something to do too.

Finding out how to break the spell could be the trick, and this is where the Grand Kai and Kibito could come into play with some ritual.

I think those are all great ideas, much better than what we got in the Buu saga. Honestly I liked Majin Buu for what he was but he was such a crappy and weird character, Uub is probably a preferable character maybe that would have been the reason fro Babidi to come to Earth! to find Uub. I liked the Kais in this though but how much better would it have been if Dabura and Babidi had been the ones to destroy the heavenly kingdom of the Kais without Buu. That would be so much better for the epically cool Dabura and we could work around that with Piccolo who is also a Demon King or something (not sure how this works, maybe a Demon King hierarchy... although I thought Piccolo was from the planet Namek, not sure I get it now). What if the kais destroyed each other because Babidi forced them to? (mind blown)
I also enjoyed hero heaven (dead Goku was really interesting I think, would be cool if Babidi tried to find mind slaves here too) but the Buu saga had almost no point to it, much of it early on was filler and the tournament made it seem real again and then they copped out on us by cutting the tournament short.
Piccolo and everyone else were seriously screwed in this one. They did literally nothing for 90% of the Buu saga.

Now I haven't seen some of the newer stuff but I hear it's a much better pace than what GT brought. From GT I would only keep the Baby saga anyway, maybe the Shadow Dragon saga but I'm not sure on that count. I would have liked if they just made up an entirely new story arc that none of us could predict or think up (which is kind of what they're doing right now). Also Bardock is the legendary super saiyan? Could work that into the story maybe.

[Inhuman One]

Some more adventure would have been great yes, since then other characters could contribute with their skills since it wouldnt always be about strongest powerlevels. Maybe a true search for the dragonballs once more instead of them being found in a montage or it not being shown at all how they where found.

Speaking of which, they may have overdone it with deaths later on in the series.. I mean everyone has been dead and wished back. Entire earth with everyone on it, and those who survived that explosion had already died before.
It just was not needed for Buu to blow up the earth and kill everyone. I believe krillin died and was brought back four times!

If they are going to bring the dead back, it might have been more interesting to bring old villains and other deceased characters back to life, either through dragonballs or otherwise. And I don't mean to be brought back to be easily defeated. They should be stronger too. Could have been cool to see Radditz and Nappa return as Super Saiyans and hold a strong grudge against Vegeta.

Never was much of a fan of Broly myself. I feel the character lacked development. I'd have wished to see more of him in his subdued form. Having a real conversation with the others before going mental later on.
Cooler did have potential but then again, so did King Cold but they killed him off too soon. Generally the DBZ movies seem too short though, not even the lenght of a standard movie. Considering the series, a two hour movie or such might be better.
Turles was pretty cool, but his background seems a bit vague. Was he perhaps also send away as a child and grew up elsewhere while the planet was destroyed? I mean if it was common practice to send Saiyan children to planets to conquer them, surely there must be more like Goku around who actually did what Goku was supposed to do?

[Inhuman One]

Reviving this topic now that I found a way to watch dragonball. Never saw it before aside from a few youtube bits.

Currently I'm at the Fortune Teller Baba saga and I must say Goku is just annoying. His plot armor is rediculously thick, so far it actually seems worse than in DBZ. I found myself hoping villains would be more of a challenge to him, I was practicly rooting for the red ribbon army. His tail and powerpole are practicly the cheatcodes he uses to get through everything. The power difference with Krillin, Yamcha and Master Roshi is rediculous, he could seemingly take them all on at once by this point and it wouldnt be a challenge.
I was really looking forward to others joining in with Goku to fight the red ribbon army, but nope.. Goku had to defeat them all on his own. Boring. I do savour the rare moments that other characters get to have their moment but its rare.

Goku traveling on his own was quite boring, the parts where others are with him are instantly a lot more fun.

After having seen the red ribbon saga I really feel even stronger that they could have done a lot more in Z with the android saga. There where some interesting officers, but they didnt get much chance to shine. Silver, Black and Haski had potential.

[Kamos]

I always found the big thing about Dragon Ball were the tournaments. That's were everyone truly does get to shine at least every now and then.

[Derpy Hooves]

Reviving this topic now that I found a way to watch dragonball. Never saw it before aside from a few youtube bits.

Currently I'm at the Fortune Teller Baba saga and I must say Goku is just annoying. His plot armor is rediculously thick, so far it actually seems worse than in DBZ. I found myself hoping villains would be more of a challenge to him, I was practicly rooting for the red ribbon army. His tail and powerpole are practicly the cheatcodes he uses to get through everything. The power difference with Krillin, Yamcha and Master Roshi is rediculous, he could seemingly take them all on at once by this point and it wouldnt be a challenge.
I was really looking forward to others joining in with Goku to fight the red ribbon army, but nope.. Goku had to defeat them all on his own. Boring. I do savour the rare moments that other characters get to have their moment but its rare.

Goku traveling on his own was quite boring, the parts where others are with him are instantly a lot more fun.

After having seen the red ribbon saga I really feel even stronger that they could have done a lot more in Z with the android saga. There where some interesting officers, but they didnt get much chance to shine. Silver, Black and Haski had potential.

​Wait till you get to the King Piccolo saga.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I always found the big thing about Dragon Ball were the tournaments. That's were everyone truly does get to shine at least every now and then.

Yes. Definitely.

Reviving this topic now that I found a way to watch dragonball. Never saw it before aside from a few youtube bits.

Currently I'm at the Fortune Teller Baba saga and I must say Goku is just annoying. His plot armor is rediculously thick, so far it actually seems worse than in DBZ. I found myself hoping villains would be more of a challenge to him, I was practicly rooting for the red ribbon army. His tail and powerpole are practicly the cheatcodes he uses to get through everything. The power difference with Krillin, Yamcha and Master Roshi is rediculous, he could seemingly take them all on at once by this point and it wouldnt be a challenge.
I was really looking forward to others joining in with Goku to fight the red ribbon army, but nope.. Goku had to defeat them all on his own. Boring. I do savour the rare moments that other characters get to have their moment but its rare.

Goku traveling on his own was quite boring, the parts where others are with him are instantly a lot more fun.

After having seen the red ribbon saga I really feel even stronger that they could have done a lot more in Z with the android saga. There where some interesting officers, but they didnt get much chance to shine. Silver, Black and Haski had potential.

During the King Piccolo part things get more interesting. Yamcha does a bit more, Master Roshi gives us some backstory, Tien becomes important, King Piccolo does evil stuff and at the end Piccolo becomes a character. After King Piccolo Goku grows up, there's another tournament and he fights Piccolo from DBZ.

I recall Colonel Black and Colonel Silver, but I don't remember Hasky. I actually liked the Red Ribbon Army mercenary Tao Pai Pai, he might have been my favourite RR Army character. But Captain Blue was a and I really didn't like him.
Also just thinking back there was a protagonist called Launch who is like a weird bipolar lady. The heck ever happened to her? Last I recall she ran off with Tien or something but they never showed her in DBZ.

[Inhuman One]

Launch seems to be a great character, I heard Toriyama forgot about her or was affraid her changing would confuse people considering the super saiyan thing.

Tao did put up more of a fight, but then goku just easily gets a lot stronger in a few days after being beaten. General blue is a bit.. odd. Seemingly he can fight pretty well, held his own against goku and defeated krillin. I'd have prefered Silver to be of that power instead of Blue since Silver had some build up to it.

[Derpy Hooves]

Yes. Definitely.


During the King Piccolo part things get more interesting. Yamcha does a bit more, Master Roshi gives us some backstory, Tien becomes important, King Piccolo does evil stuff and at the end Piccolo becomes a character. After King Piccolo Goku grows up, there's another tournament and he fights Piccolo from DBZ.

I recall Colonel Black and Colonel Silver, but I don't remember Hasky. I actually liked the Red Ribbon Army mercenary Tao Pai Pai, he might have been my favourite RR Army character. But Captain Blue was a and I really didn't like him.
Also just thinking back there was a protagonist called Launch who is like a weird bipolar lady. The heck ever happened to her? Last I recall she ran off with Tien or something but they never showed her in DBZ.

​Toriyama literally forgot about Launch when writing DBZ

Launch seems to be a great character, I heard Toriyama forgot about her or was affraid her changing would confuse people considering the super saiyan thing.

Tao did put up more of a fight, but then goku just easily gets a lot stronger in a few days after being beaten. General blue is a bit.. odd. Seemingly he can fight pretty well, held his own against goku and defeated krillin. I'd have prefered Silver to be of that power instead of Blue since Silver had some build up to it.

Goku getting stronger is what happens all the time in DBZ. Every villain fight is rehashed in that way.

[Inhuman One]

It is yes, Goku is the most boring character of the series pretty much. He works better as comic relief than as the hero.

Even the one time that it was Gohan who defeated the villain and not him, it was with Goku's encouragement beyond the grave.

The only villain that actually made Goku interesting was Radditz. Goku could not beat him, and he was truly in despair because he wanted to save his kidnapped son, but was too weak to do it. And theres also the conflicted emotions going on about fighting his own brother. At all other occasions he just swoops in and saves the day. Others get to fight but cant win. He constantly defeats villains that basicly others would deserve to defeat.

Gohan, Krillin, Piccolo and Tien where doing all the hard work in the saiyan saga, but Goku swoops in to beat Nappa. Granted, technically he never defeated Vegeta and the others did play their part there, but it does seem he'd have beaten Vegeta without that much effort without the oozaru transformation.

On Namek again. Krillin, Gohan and Vegeta do all the hard work, but Goku just swoops in to beat the ginyu force and frieza. Heck in between hes even wounded so that the others get to do the hard work against frieza first before goku joins in and saves the day.

In the android saga he's again not around while others do the hard work fighting the bad guys. At least Gohan gets credited to defeat a villain just once though.

Buu saga.. is really messed up. At least Goku is a little more present here. But he just pulls some new transformation out of his butt, and of course beats Buu in the end while again, many others did the hard work first.

It just feels that Goku earned little, but just gets everything thrown in his lap. Just because he tries hard, he succeeds. When others do the same, they dont succeed.

[Derpy Hooves]

It is yes, Goku is the most boring character of the series pretty much. He works better as comic relief than as the hero.

Even the one time that it was Gohan who defeated the villain and not him, it was with Goku's encouragement beyond the grave.

The only villain that actually made Goku interesting was Radditz. Goku could not beat him, and he was truly in despair because he wanted to save his kidnapped son, but was too weak to do it. And theres also the conflicted emotions going on about fighting his own brother. At all other occasions he just swoops in and saves the day. Others get to fight but cant win. He constantly defeats villains that basicly others would deserve to defeat.

Gohan, Krillin, Piccolo and Tien where doing all the hard work in the saiyan saga, but Goku swoops in to beat Nappa. Granted, technically he never defeated Vegeta and the others did play their part there, but it does seem he'd have beaten Vegeta without that much effort without the oozaru transformation.

On Namek again. Krillin, Gohan and Vegeta do all the hard work, but Goku just swoops in to beat the ginyu force and frieza. Heck in between hes even wounded so that the others get to do the hard work against frieza first before goku joins in and saves the day.

In the android saga he's again not around while others do the hard work fighting the bad guys. At least Gohan gets credited to defeat a villain just once though.

Buu saga.. is really messed up. At least Goku is a little more present here. But he just pulls some new transformation out of his butt, and of course beats Buu in the end while again, many others did the hard work first.

It just feels that Goku earned little, but just gets everything thrown in his lap. Just because he tries hard, he succeeds. When others do the same, they dont succeed.

​Whereas in DB, Goku earns all the praise because he basically takes care of everything by himself. Fortuneteller Baba arc is great though and heartwarming, you'll see why