Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 91

Thread: [Submod] light_spear, infantry and cavalry javelineer, all cavalry speed EDU fixes

  1. #1
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
    Artifex

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    11,731

    Default [Submod] light_spear, infantry and cavalry javelineer, all cavalry speed EDU fixes

    I've rolled four sets of changes together here, so apologies if you only wanted one. I've left the old files in for backup purposes. For me these haven't been savegame compatible, so if you try a later one but didn't keep the old file, you can still get it from here.

    If you just want to fix infantry (secondary spear-users and javelineers), download Update 1. If you want to fix javelin cavalry as well, download Update 3. If you want to fix secondary spears, javelineers, javelin cavalry and make all cavalry faster, download Update 5. Update 6 is purely optional, it's a tweak to underarm lancer formation that should make them stick together better (and thus more impact-ful charges).

    For clarity, you can only use one file, and the changes are cumulative. If you want faster cavalry, you will also get the secondary spear and javelineer fix. If you want the javelineer fix, you will get the secondary spear fix too.

    As per the previous thread, all secondary spear-wielders have had their weapon changed to use the light_spear attribute.

    Affected units:

    Spoiler for Changelist
    Uisusparos Kingetoi
    Mercenary Uisusparos Kingetoi
    Berukomtouga Selgoi
    Gaisatoi
    Ambactoi
    Toutanakoi
    Uassedoi
    Dugunthiz Early
    Dugunthiz Late
    Gaizafulkan Frijato Early
    Gaizafulkan Frijato Late
    Jugunthiz
    Toutaginoi Bodyguard
    Kareus Late
    Toutaginoi Early
    Toutaginoi Late
    Gestikapoinann
    Retukenoi
    Celtiberian Gaesamica
    Principes Camillan
    Principes Polybian
    Hastati Sabelli
    Hanatim Libim
    Garamantes Infantry
    Sabaean Elite Urban Infantry
    Khamis
    Thureophoroi
    Misthophoroi Thureophoroi
    Ioudaioi Taxeis
    Illyrioi Hoplitai
    Gund i Palta
    Nizagan Eranshahr
    Katpatuka Astibara


    Furthermore, following on from much discussion about what is wrong with javelin infantry skirmishers, I've had a go at addressing the main issues with them. They've all changed to use the prec_javelin80 weapon, have had their range extended to 70m and use one of three formations, depending on their secondary weapon type. Additionally, I've tightened the formation for Euzonoi to make them more like light infantry.

    This is a somewhat quick and dirty fix for something that will probably have been fixed in the next patch, but in the meantime this makes skirmishers more useful than mere garrison bodies. In the case of the Baktrian Tribesmen, they've got the "wrong" secondary weapon animation (they use axes, rather than swords), but it's necessary for them to get the best javelin-throwing animation. Otherwise I'd have had to do something more extensive than just an EDU edit.

    Affected units:

    Spoiler for Changelist
    Katioi
    Jugunthiz
    Maldais
    Komatai
    Iovamann
    Celtiberian Gaesamica
    Leves
    Libyan Skirmishers
    Numidian Skirmishers
    Maures Infantry
    Akontistai
    Euzonoi
    Illyrioi Peltastai
    Kofyaren-i Para-uparisaina
    Gund i Palta


    To use, simply extract this Attachment 314470 (DO NOT DOWNLOAD THIS FILE) and install in M2TW\mods\EBII\data. Make sure you back up your original EDU first.


    UPDATE 1: It's not game-breaking by any means, but the Baktrian Tribesman was using the Euzonoi animation, which was a bit of a kludge; that's now been fixed in this updated Attachment 314486. If you want to make the fix yourself (and I think it should probably be savegame compatible for anyone who used the original file, because it's small), open with Notepad++, find the Kofyaren-i Para-uparisaina, look at the "soldier" line and change Euzonoi to eastern_axeman.

    Note that this is NOT savegame compatible. Not only do you need a new game for the changes to take effect, it will also prevent existing saves which used the old EDU from loading.


    UPDATE 2: This is a more extensive change than the previous update, I've increased the range of javelin cavalry from 45m to 60m, which should hopefully fix the issue of them behaving as the infantry skirmishers did - most of them not throwing their missiles.

    Spoiler for Changelist
    Akus Eporedoi
    Mercenary Akus Eporedoi
    Esseda
    Seguorina
    Komnetsamoi
    Londo Epatoi
    Ridanz
    Late Ridanz
    Mezenai
    Equites Scutari
    Equites Caetrati
    Celtiberian Bodyguard
    Celtiberian Lancer
    Ekualakoi
    Celtiberian Skirmisher Cavalry
    Equites Sabelli
    Numidian Nobles
    Numidian Cavalry
    Maures Cavalry
    Garamantes Cavalry
    Hippakontistai
    Illyrioi Hippeis
    Harauvatish Asabara
    Asiatikoi Hippakontistai
    Nizakahar Ayrudzi
    Indian Light Cavalry


    To use, simply extract this Attachment 314862 (DO NOT DOWNLOAD THIS FILE) to the usual location. This wasn't savegame compatible for me, so could someone let me know if this is working as intended?


    UPDATE 3: I've changed the weapon used by javelin cavalry to the more accurate cav_heavy_javelin40, which is six times more damaging. I'm assuming the smaller numbers in cavalry units, plus the shorter range should balance out this increased effectiveness. I also caught two units I'd missed last time around, who still had an old weapon

    Spoiler for Changelist
    Akus Eporedoi
    Mercenary Akus Eporedoi
    Esseda
    Seguorina
    Komnetsamoi
    Londo Epatoi
    Ridanz
    Late Ridanz
    Mezenai
    Equites Scutari
    Equites Caetrati
    Celtiberian Bodyguard
    Celtiberian Lancer
    Ekualakoi
    Celtiberian Skirmisher Cavalry
    Equites Sabelli
    Garamantes Chariot
    Numidian Nobles
    Numidian Cavalry
    Maures Cavalry
    Garamantes Cavalry
    Hippakontistai
    Harmata Drepanephora
    Illyrioi Hippeis
    Harauvatish Asabara
    Asiatikoi Hippakontistai
    Armoured Indian Elephant
    Nizakahar Ayrudzi
    Indian Light Cavalry


    As always, download this Attachment 314914. Assume it's not savegame compatible, but if it is, you're in luck.


    UPDATE 4: Another cumulative change, but a pretty significant one. This time I've increased all cavalry speeds. Heavy cavalry by 30% and Light, Missile and Skirmish cavalry by 60%. I'd be keen to hear back from people how it affects the dynamics of battle, and especially the utility of light cavalry for chasing down routers and otherwise making a nuisance of themselves.

    Affected units:

    Spoiler for Changelist
    Light, Missile or Skirmish (Speed x1.6)
    Akus Eporedoi
    Mercenary Akus Eporedoi
    Esseda
    Seguorina
    Komnetsamoi
    Londo Epatoi
    Ridanz
    Late Ridanz
    Marhoreidonez Aşaloi
    Aswiniai
    Aswiniai Late
    Getikoi Hippotoxotai
    Mezenai
    Equites Caetrati
    Caetranann Epones
    Celtiberian Lancer
    Celtiberian Skirmisher Cavalry
    Equites Sabelli
    Numidian Nobles
    Numidian Cavalry
    Maures Cavalry
    Garamantes Cavalry
    Nabatean Lancers
    Nabatean Horse Archers
    Hippeis
    Misthophoroi Hippeis
    Xystophoroi
    Hippakontistai
    Baktrioi Hippotoxotai
    Illyrioi Hippeis
    Katpatuka Asabara
    Harauvatish Asabara
    Asiatikoi Hippakontistai
    Asabaran-i Madaen
    Asiatikoi Hippeis
    Aspet Hetselazor
    Nizakahar Ayrudzi
    Indian Light Cavalry
    Indian Lancers
    Aursa Baexdzhyntae
    Sauromatae Fat Aexsdzhytae
    Daha Baexdzhyntae
    Shivatir-i Pahlavanig
    Duna Asya
    Assa Barai


    Heavy (Speed x1.3)
    Gallic General Bodyguard
    Donno Eporedoi
    Marcacoi
    Boii General Bodyguard
    Boii Donno Eporedoi
    Equites Scutari
    Caetrati
    Vobrim Epones
    Vobrim Epones (Recruit)
    Celtiberian Bodyguard
    Ekualakoi
    Camillan Equites
    Equites Consulares
    Parasim Libi-Ponnim
    HaParasim HaB'hurim
    Somrei HaMepaqed
    Numidian General Bodyguard
    Nabatean Royal Guard
    Hetairoi
    Hellenistic General Bodyguard
    Hellenistic General Bodyguard TEMP
    Early Baktrian Bodyguard
    Baktrioi Hippeis
    Eastern Early Bodyguard
    Khuveshavagan
    Ragon Sauromatae Uaezdaettae
    Sauromatae Uaezdaettae
    Pahlavan-i Zrehbaran
    Spahbade Pahlavanig
    Ysaninu Aysna
    Ysaninu Aysna - Recruitable



    Download this Attachment 314960 (DO NOT DOWNLOAD THIS FILE). As usual assume it isn't savegame compatible. Too fast, use Update 5 instead.


    UPDATE 5: An update to cavalry speeds (and moved Edessa and Baktrioi Hippotoxotai to the heavy list). Heavy cavalry are faster by 25% and Light, Missile and Skirmish cavalry by 35%. Having tested it, I'm pretty happy with these now.

    Affected units:

    Spoiler for Changelist
    Light, Missile or Skirmish (Speed x1.35)
    Akus Eporedoi
    Mercenary Akus Eporedoi
    Seguorina
    Komnetsamoi
    Londo Epatoi
    Ridanz
    Late Ridanz
    Marhoreidonez Aşaloi
    Aswiniai
    Aswiniai Late
    Getikoi Hippotoxotai
    Mezenai
    Equites Caetrati
    Caetranann Epones
    Celtiberian Lancer
    Celtiberian Skirmisher Cavalry
    Equites Sabelli
    Numidian Nobles
    Numidian Cavalry
    Maures Cavalry
    Garamantes Cavalry
    Nabatean Lancers
    Nabatean Horse Archers
    Hippeis
    Misthophoroi Hippeis
    Xystophoroi
    Hippakontistai
    Illyrioi Hippeis
    Katpatuka Asabara
    Harauvatish Asabara
    Asiatikoi Hippakontistai
    Asabaran-i Madaen
    Asiatikoi Hippeis
    Aspet Hetselazor
    Nizakahar Ayrudzi
    Indian Light Cavalry
    Indian Lancers
    Aursa Baexdzhyntae
    Sauromatae Fat Aexsdzhytae
    Daha Baexdzhyntae
    Shivatir-i Pahlavanig
    Duna Asya
    Assa Barai


    Heavy (Speed x1.25)
    Esseda
    Gallic General Bodyguard
    Donno Eporedoi
    Marcacoi
    Boii General Bodyguard
    Boii Donno Eporedoi
    Equites Scutari
    Caetrati
    Vobrim Epones
    Vobrim Epones (Recruit)
    Celtiberian Bodyguard
    Ekualakoi
    Camillan Equites
    Equites Consulares
    Parasim Libi-Ponnim
    HaParasim HaB'hurim
    Somrei HaMepaqed
    Numidian General Bodyguard
    Nabatean Royal Guard
    Hetairoi
    Hellenistic General Bodyguard
    Hellenistic General Bodyguard TEMP
    Early Baktrian Bodyguard
    Baktrioi Hippeis
    Baktrioi Hippotoxotai
    Eastern Early Bodyguard
    Khuveshavagan
    Ragon Sauromatae Uaezdaettae
    Sauromatae Uaezdaettae
    Pahlavan-i Zrehbaran
    Spahbade Pahlavanig
    Ysaninu Aysna
    Ysaninu Aysna - Recruitable



    Download this Attachment 315060. Not savegame compatible.



    UPDATE 6: I've tightened the formation of underarm lancers, which should improve their cohesion and thus the impact of their charge.

    Affected units:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Celtiberian Lancer
    HaParasim HaB'hurim
    Somrei HaMepaqed
    Nabatean Lancers
    Nabatean Royal Guard
    Xystophoroi
    Hetairoi
    Hellenistic General Bodyguard
    Hellenistic General Bodyguard TEMP
    Early Baktrian Bodyguard
    Baktrioi Hippeis
    Asabaran-i Madaen
    Asiatikoi Hippeis
    Eastern Early Bodyguard
    Khuveshavagan
    Ragon Sauromatae Uaezdaettae
    Sauromatae Uaezdaettae (Recruitable)
    Pahlavan-i Zrehbaran


    As usual, download this Attachment 315165. Probably not savegame compatible.
    Last edited by QuintusSertorius; October 21, 2014 at 05:43 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: [Submod] light_spear and javelineer EDU fixes

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    I've rolled two sets of changes together here, so apologies if you only wanted one. As per the previous thread, all secondary spear-wielders have had their weapon changed to use the light_spear attribute.

    Affected units:

    Spoiler for Changelist
    Uisusparos Kingetoi
    Mercenary Uisusparos Kingetoi
    Berukomtouga Selgoi
    Gaisatoi
    Ambactoi
    Toutanakoi
    Uassedoi
    Dugunthiz Early
    Dugunthiz Late
    Gaizafulkan Frijato Early
    Gaizafulkan Frijato Late
    Jugunthiz
    Toutaginoi Bodyguard
    Kareus Late
    Toutaginoi Early
    Toutaginoi Late
    Gestikapoinann
    Retukenoi
    Celtiberian Gaesamica
    Principes Camillan
    Principes Polybian
    Hastati Sabelli
    Hanatim Libim
    Garamantes Infantry
    Sabaean Elite Urban Infantry
    Khamis
    Thureophoroi
    Misthophoroi Thureophoroi
    Ioudaioi Taxeis
    Illyrioi Hoplitai
    Gund i Palta
    Nizagan Eranshahr
    Katpatuka Astibara


    Furthermore, following on from much discussion about what is wrong with javelin infantry skirmishers, I've had a go at addressing the main issues with them. They've all changed to use the prec_javelin80 weapon, have had their range extended to 70m and use one of three formations, depending on their secondary weapon type. Additionally, I've tightened the formation for Euzonoi to make them more like light infantry.

    Affected units:

    Spoiler for Changelist
    Katioi
    Jugunthiz
    Maldais
    Komatai
    Iovamann
    Celtiberian Gaesamica
    Leves
    Libyan Skirmishers
    Numidian Skirmishers
    Maures Infantry
    Akontistai
    Euzonoi
    Illyrioi Peltastai
    Kofyaren-i Para-uparisaina
    Gund i Palta


    To use, simply extract this Attachment 314470 and install in M2TW\mods\EBII\data. Make sure you back up your original EDU first.

    Note that this is NOT savegame compatible. Not only do you need a new game for the changes to take effect, it will also prevent existing saves which used the old EDU from loading.
    good stuff QS i will give it a whirl.

  3. #3
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
    Artifex

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    11,731

    Default Re: [Submod] light_spear and javelineer EDU fixes

    Quote Originally Posted by mr mojo risin View Post
    good stuff QS i will give it a whirl.
    Thanks. I haven't had a chance to test it myself, so at the least it would be reassuring to know it doesn't cause CTDs.

  4. #4

    Default Re: [Submod] light_spear and javelineer EDU fixes

    it seems to be great

  5. #5

    Default Re: [Submod] light_spear and javelineer EDU fixes

    This is working nicely. Well done!

  6. #6
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
    Artifex

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    11,731

    Default Re: [Submod] light_spear and javelineer EDU fixes

    Quote Originally Posted by mr mojo risin View Post
    it seems to be great
    Quote Originally Posted by Tesho View Post
    This is working nicely. Well done!
    Excellent, I'm glad to hear it. I can't claim the all credit; the thinking on the skirmishers was done by WAD81 and torongill, I just did the grunt-work updating the EDU.

  7. #7

    Default Re: [Submod] light_spear and javelineer EDU fixes

    Very well made, sir! Finally we have a workable EDU...
    Now, would you be ready to start with some new ideas/issues?
    For example:
    -better armour values?
    -improved spear attack values? (some units superior units have 2, some levies 8...)
    -improved formations for cavalry, for better charging
    -cavalry skirmishers?

    I suggest last two...
    Also, let's move all the discussion here, as your thread deserves much credit for sure.

  8. #8
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
    Artifex

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    11,731

    Default Re: [Submod] light_spear and javelineer EDU fixes

    Quote Originally Posted by WAD81 View Post
    Very well made, sir! Finally we have a workable EDU...
    Now, would you be ready to start with some new ideas/issues?
    For example:
    -better armour values?
    -improved spear attack values? (some units superior units have 2, some levies 8...)
    -improved formations for cavalry, for better charging
    -cavalry skirmishers?

    I suggest last two...
    Also, let's move all the discussion here, as your thread deserves much credit for sure.
    I'm loathe to touch the stats in any meaningful way, I'd rather leave that to Ibrahim with the official patches. As you said, getting workable units is more important, this means secondary spear users behave properly and javelineers actually act like skirmishers.

    Cavalry is the only other area that stands out, if they can be improved with just some formation changes I could get on board with that. What I don't want to get into is major reworking of the stats.

    My thoughts on this keep coming back to EB1; the battle balancing there worked, how do we get back to there?
    Last edited by QuintusSertorius; September 25, 2014 at 03:41 AM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: [Submod] light_spear and javelineer EDU fixes

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    My thoughts on this keep coming back to EB1; the battle balancing there worked, how do we get back to there?
    Nice work on this mod. As to how we get the balance *just right*, the answer is "slowly but surely". Ibrahim continues to work this, and we appreciate the insights. As you know, we just have to be cautious. There's a lot of posting going on that involves, shall we say, incomplete testing. It's very easy to make a "fix" in one area that breaks more stuff elsewhere.
    EBII Council

  10. #10
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
    Artifex

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    11,731

    Default Re: [Submod] light_spear and javelineer EDU fixes

    Quote Originally Posted by Kull View Post
    Nice work on this mod. As to how we get the balance *just right*, the answer is "slowly but surely". Ibrahim continues to work this, and we appreciate the insights. As you know, we just have to be cautious. There's a lot of posting going on that involves, shall we say, incomplete testing. It's very easy to make a "fix" in one area that breaks more stuff elsewhere.
    I can completely appreciate the difficulty, just the minor tweaking I did was a major exercise in its own right, especially keeping a changelog of what I'd done. As you say, balancing is extremely tricky, not least because even small changes can have completely unintended consequences. That's why I decided not to do anything but add light_spear for those secondary spearmen in the end, particularly given that those who already had it didn't have any bonuses besides mount effects. And also why I didn't adjust any of the javelineer stats besides their soldier animation, weapon type and range.

    Ibrahim said over on The Org that he's got a different model in mind for later releases, which makes me hesitant to do too much to change things beyond basic functionality. Besides, the balancing in EB1 took quite a long time to reach, so judging these early releases against something with years of feedback and change is a little unfair.

  11. #11
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
    Artifex

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    11,731

    Default Re: [Submod] light_spear and javelineer EDU fixes

    I think I need to turn my attention to javelin cavalry. I just used Hippakontistai in a battle and they refused to throw their missiles. They were almost annihilated in a skirmishers duel by a unit of Libyan Skirmishers, who had no such reticence.

    Javelin cavalry all currently have a range of 45m or 55m - I wonder if I should equalise them with infantry skirmishers to 70m, or make them intentionally a little shorter with 60m?

  12. #12

    Default Re: [Submod] light_spear and javelineer EDU fixes

    Have you done anything about the British tribesmen throwing rocks? If so, you're a God.
    I'm trying to state my case to the team about the issue, but it would nice I had a unofficial fix until I say what I have to say.

    I could give them javelins, or deny them any secondary weapons, but I feel unworthy to mod this

  13. #13
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
    Artifex

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    11,731

    Default Re: [Submod] light_spear and javelineer EDU fixes

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    Have you done anything about the British tribesmen throwing rocks? If so, you're a God.
    I'm trying to state my case to the team about the issue, but it would nice I had a unofficial fix until I say what I have to say.

    I could give them javelins, or deny them any secondary weapons, but I feel unworthy to mod this
    I've not touched them, I'm afraid. To be honest, I don't understand the linkage between EDU and skins, so I've no idea if you need to do something in order to give them javelins, rather than rocks.

  14. #14

    Default Re: [Submod] light_spear infantry and cavalry javelineer EDU fixes

    Okay.
    I'll just have to convince the team to remove the rocks, or replace them with javelins.
    That unit wasn't thought out well. Throwing rocks by hand at someone is an act of battlefield improvisation, not a tactic. If the folk the unit represents carried throwing weapons, it would probably been slings or javelins... Slinger units are well represented in that faction, so javelins it is... Everyone can pick up a rock, anywhere. Doesn't mean that units should be equipped by rocks.

    Game wise, it puts them at a disadvantage. Low range, little damage. Very few of them actually throw and they get charged by the enemy before they do. Test the tribesmen against a similar sized and equipped unit, you'll get what I'm saying.
    Last edited by Rad; September 29, 2014 at 03:19 PM.

  15. #15
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
    Artifex

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    11,731

    Default Re: [Submod] light_spear, infantry and cavalry javelineer EDU fixes

    Early reports say javelin cavalry now throw their weapons, but they do little. So I think their weapon needs to change, I'll look into it.

    Also wondering about altering the speed of cavalry (to make them slightly faster).

  16. #16

    Default Re: [Submod] light_spear, infantry and cavalry javelineer EDU fixes

    I can confirm that they throw very little, nothing compared to the foot skirmisher volleys... still better than before though.

  17. #17
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
    Artifex

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    11,731

    Default Re: [Submod] light_spear, infantry and cavalry javelineer EDU fixes

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    I can confirm that they throw very little, nothing compared to the foot skirmisher volleys... still better than before though.
    Hmmm, so either the range wasn't high enough to improve their propensity to cast, or it's the weapon too (which I already suspect).

  18. #18

    Default Re: [Submod] light_spear, infantry and cavalry javelineer EDU fixes

    I can't say, not familiar how it works. Just please don't break the rules of reality for gameplay reasons... The Olympic games were only held in Greece at the time
    This might help, though. I don't remember seeing any problems with Vanilla Med 2 Javelin cavalry...

  19. #19
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
    Artifex

    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    11,731

    Default Re: [Submod] light_spear, infantry and cavalry javelineer EDU fixes

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    I can't say, not familiar how it works. Just please don't break the rules of reality for gameplay reasons... The Olympic games were only held in Greece at the time
    This might help, though. I don't remember seeing any problems with Vanilla Med 2 Javelin cavalry...
    The ranges we're talking about don't really break reality. Infantry skirmishers have a 70m range; the modern Olympic (male) record is just over 90m (though with a light javelin designed primarily for flight distance). I've currently set cavalry to 60m, up from 45/55m, so these aren't excessive. It might be that 60m isn't enough and 65m would be better. Either way, I had to change the weapon as well as range with infantry javelineers, sounds like the same is true of cavalry.

  20. #20

    Default Re: [Submod] light_spear, infantry and cavalry javelineer EDU fixes

    Played with Update 2... cavalry javelins work nicely now. Haven't finished testing, though.

Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •