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Thread: To Easy To Much Money

  1. #21
    Semisalis
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    Default Re: To Easy To Much Money

    Decreasing late game income is easy, when 1.0 is out and when dresden changes the imperium level effect, there wont be a high end income anymore. I just fear that you dont care for economic victory condition so it will be impossible to archieve. You might want to try hard battle diff if you max out your units at least then you can lose. and nice one renaming corruption!

  2. #22

    Default Re: To Easy To Much Money

    Yeah, if the economy gets changed drastically it would be nice to lower the conditions for economic victory. Unless of course it's still possible to earn 90,000 a turn...

  3. #23

    Default Re: To Easy To Much Money

    Quote Originally Posted by Butan View Post
    I would like a game where the economy follows a curved bell formula where there is a peak efficiency when relatively average in size/power, but being small (city state like) AND being large (world spanning empire) have a lot of monetary problems!
    Well,Civilization IV has economy and hapiness penalty for number of cities and remoteness with "palace" (capital faction).

    this can be a good issue to improve Rome 2.

  4. #24

    Default Re: To Easy To Much Money

    Quote Originally Posted by lurumagno View Post
    Well,Civilization IV has economy and hapiness penalty for number of cities and remoteness with "palace" (capital faction).

    this can be a good issue to improve Rome 2.
    Hi all,I edit with PFM in string "effect_bundles_to_effects_junctions" which control the imperium levels penalties the value "rom_building_gdp_mod_all" Like that;

    imperium_4 rom_building_gdp_mod_all this_faction -15 start_turn_completed
    imperium_5 rom_building_gdp_mod_all this_faction -20 start_turn_completed
    .....

    And it works.According to the level of empire there are economic penalties.

    So if you have a huge empire,it will be a economic challenge.


    Sorry for my bad english,see you!

  5. #25

    Default Re: To Easy To Much Money

    Quote Originally Posted by Butan View Post
    There was a most simple inflation system in some MED2 mods where above 10 000-20 000 ducats everything cost double-triple or you simply stopped gaining money, I do not remember precisely.

    Would that be that hard to script on a developing-wise aspect? Not saying we should do it if its easy, but I would like to know if its feasible.
    This is the opposite of reality, though. In reality the hoarding of wealth in the treasury of the Persian Empire kept inflation low historically, and there was a massive inflationary spike when Alexander and the Diadochi "liberated" all that wealth and started spending it.

  6. #26
    Krixux's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: To Easy To Much Money

    Quote Originally Posted by General Sherman View Post
    I like the late game economic booms, it means you can actually train full stacks of idealized armies. The problem isn't that you have too much money, the problem is you have no foes worthy of your might.
    A very interesting thought!!!

    Player is bored to tears.
    Earns tons of cash and is surrounded by , beggar , coward , mini countries.
    Perhaps indeed there is the problem , not the 50k/turn income !!!

    Let economy as is, and boost late remaining nations with high stats and elite only armies...
    Something from turn 150 AI may not recruit but elite.
    A kind of reform (aimed at the AI) that reduces recruitment and up-keep for AI elite and what their army composition should be...
    Then indeed it would be an interesting game !!!

    General Sherman Sir, You Rock !
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  7. #27

    Default Re: To Easy To Much Money

    I think that the current traits for the generals & dignitaries are too generous. Especially with the 4 tpy, dignitaries get experience fairly quickly , and bonuses are just too great ( as for the province governance or army upkeep).
    I would love to see DEI team reducing the traits benefits & making agents gaining them much slower. Also, a player normally maximize all the traits for the specific goal ( for the generals & agents), but AI agents don't do that. So then a player has extra advantage over AI. Making agents level up slower & reducing their effect will make that player advantage over AI smaller.

  8. #28
    Semisalis
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    Default Re: To Easy To Much Money

    There always is a problem with authentic / atmospheric (in fact: fair) aspect of a strategy game. The AI isnt intelligent enough to be good at income and food, adding a high bonus for AI is unavoidable if you want a challenging game experience. 1.0 gives elites a high recruitment cost and upkeep cost, AI just couldnt compete with the player (it is logical, humans built the AI, AI has no greater intelligence, sure computing is higher / faster but it has no real intelligence). You have to decide: fair + tactical vs. challenging - tactical actions on campaign map (destroying the food supply of the enemy faction to weaken their armies, unpossible with AI bonuses). I am for challenge, attrition war isnt fun, no bad feelings. Isnt there a way to script the AIs army composition for a certain turn, this way you can change the armies of the AI so they recruit high end armies when end game hits.

  9. #29

    Default Re: To Easy To Much Money

    Quote Originally Posted by Dresden View Post
    We are addressing some of this in 1.0, applying it to 0.96 would put many players into deep bankruptcy out of nowhere in their saves.

    The unit cost overhaul will probably make it a challenge as well. The main problem is that a good player will always be able to min/max and figure out how to properly build and maintain an economy.
    I may expand upon this and mention that it is not a problem at all if a good player will always be able to min/max and figure out how to properly build & maintain the economy. That's how it should be.

    A problem only arises if people start swimming in money without managing their economies, e.g. by just building random stuff and by increasing main-buildings levels. I think the high main building wealthes are what take away the "choice" between military, food, and economy region. I'd like to see stronger penalties (which are however hard to handle by the AI), or less wealth per main building, but more wealth for buildings you actually chose on your own (industries, livestocks, cultural wealth). The economic main building lines from lvl 3 could even give penalties to recruitment slot number, or less garrisons, higher percentual wealth multipliers, and less fixed base wealth.

  10. #30

    Default Re: To Easy To Much Money

    Quote Originally Posted by rusnmat View Post
    I think that the current traits for the generals & dignitaries are too generous. Especially with the 4 tpy, dignitaries get experience fairly quickly , and bonuses are just too great ( as for the province governance or army upkeep).
    I would love to see DEI team reducing the traits benefits & making agents gaining them much slower. Also, a player normally maximize all the traits for the specific goal ( for the generals & agents), but AI agents don't do that. So then a player has extra advantage over AI. Making agents level up slower & reducing their effect will make that player advantage over AI smaller.
    This is true too, their tax gain skills are quite high. It would be cool to see instead the choice by "industrialist, commercialist and agriculturalist", and remove the flat sum of +15% tax that every governor has after 10 rounds. I bet everybody goes to these skills first, mostly.

  11. #31

    Default Re: To Easy To Much Money

    Why not just increase army caps now that the civil war mechanism has been changed? It didn't make sense before because the civil war caused a 1:1 spawn of stacks. But now that's been resolved, there wouldn't be any harm in increasing army/fleet caps by 25-50%. That would soak up extra money.

  12. #32
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: To Easy To Much Money

    Army Limit was done to prevent AI stack spam from small factions.
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  13. #33

    Default Re: To Easy To Much Money

    The real problem is that the game bogs down into a grind later in the game. The economic boom just exacerbates the natural tendency of TW games to devolve into a grind.

    "Soaking up" extra money with more armies is a step in the wrong direction. In the mid to end game the game already devolves into a situation where individual battles become almost inconsequential because the AI and the player are both stacking so many armies up.

    The holy grail of TW modding is for whoever figures out how to make the game more focused on a few large, consequential battles rather than a million semi-pointless skirmishes.

    Troop numbers and army numbers are already too high IMO. The game starts with full stack vs full stack and by mid-game you're already seeing medium sized factions with 4+ full stacks being thrown at you.

    I think the game would be improved if costs were such that single province factions can only afford an army of 5-10 units. You'd have to tone down garrisons as well of course. A full stack vs a full stack should feel like a large, important battle...not a border skirmish.

  14. #34

    Default Re: To Easy To Much Money

    We are overhauling unit costs in 1.0 so that elite units will cost quite a bit more and actually hurt to lose in that respect. I would like to make it so that the economy ends up capping the units/armies rather than an artificial unit cap but it will definitely require balancing work.

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  15. #35
    Horatio Hornblower's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: To Easy To Much Money

    In my opinion a hard economy is really frustrating. I mean, this is a game. Yes, we want realism on it but it is still a game.
    I play just to have fun and fight wars and battles. This is the main pursue. This is a "Total War" game not "Universalis" or what...
    You make money to recruit men and fight real battles. And I mean 3d battles!
    Course, I like the economic side, it is challenging, but this one should not prevail on military one.
    I think that DeI is pretty balanced about.

  16. #36

    Default Re: To Easy To Much Money

    Quote Originally Posted by Dresden View Post
    We are overhauling unit costs in 1.0 so that elite units will cost quite a bit more and actually hurt to lose in that respect. I would like to make it so that the economy ends up capping the units/armies rather than an artificial unit cap but it will definitely require balancing work.
    Yeah, but the problem is presumably always going to be the AI.

    I wonder if it would make more sense to go down the road of having money to be used for building/recruiting to be seperated from money used for upkeep. I.e. implement a "wage cap" for lack of a better term that's separate from your empire's income. It could be based on regions owned + technology + buildings (i.e. higher level barracks/training grounds could raise your wage cap, along with research in various trees). You could give the player a way to vary the wage cap while not allowing the same flexibility to the AI, in order to stop it from shooting itself in the foot.

    I'm just speculating here, I doubt any of this is really all that moddable. It's probably up to CA to come up with a system that works better than the current "throw it all into one treasury" system.

    You could even go further I guess and remove the money bit from recruiting entirely. Have it be based entirely on time, population cap, your wage cap, training facilities, etc. Have money be only used for civic upgrades and mercenaries.
    Last edited by yukishiro1; October 14, 2014 at 10:31 PM.

  17. #37

    Default Re: To Easy To Much Money

    How about increasing the unit upkeep as it gains more experience, therefore fresh recruits would therefore cost less to upkeep but lack the "punch" in battle as chevron units.

    Or has is this already built into the game?

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