700 immigrants drowned in mediterrenean

[Emperor Arcturus Mengsk]

Because it's your territorial waters, not ours? And yeah "thank you" for "saving" us, however, lucky we have Sweden next door which bascially means that we have a lot less trouble dealing with immigrants because of their need to be morally superior.



I really don't care what you do with them. It seems you have a lot of other more important things to solve first.

that's the thing though, we could let them all drown but we aren't so evil. the navy here does what it can when situations arise. after they are here though, they want to keep going north but we keep them here against their will. they want to come to you

[Dante Von Hespburg]

lol sorry

i'll forgive you bro.

Indeed, that's where the biggest source is for Greece. The level of help the Turks have provided has varied, but it's clear they're not too interested in prevent the migrants leaving their own country.

Ahh yeah i can imagine why, it's that whole 'now someone else's problem' that effects most states .

My proposal is to simply have a train station right at the border crossing that gives a free ticket, no questions asked, to Northern Europe. They'll live better, and so will we!

I personally like the UK idea of just throwing them back into France..again and again... though i guess with your's we have plenty of space in the highlands... for a reason of course in that it's blimmin desolate, but hey someones got to do it right?

The UK should be doing more in the Mediterranean, considering it has Gibraltar and Cyprus covering each end of it and various NATO bases it should be able to use. I think the problem is that countries don't wont their own ships rescuing them because that means that if they're in international waters, they're the responsibility of the ship's nation.

I'm actually surprised we aren't more active there. Perhaps the sting is still too much after the Suez crisis... I see we have a 'Gibraltar Squadron' on a permanent basis- but that's just in-case the Spainish decide to bash into boats again. No other real permanent assets beyond our contribution to the NATO task force based there, and that i gather is pretty small/ does other stuff. Again it's a case where an EU wide push is needed (since shoring up trafficking will benefit all of Europe)- international task forces or something.

France though...they have no excuse. There a med country, where are they

The usual childish northern european argument about events like this.

"I'm liberal, I love everyone! I am multicultural! I'm humane!!! but YOU do it, and don't you dare to send these lovely people OUR way because YOU have to take care of them!"

bad dum tish.

I haven't yet seen anyone make this argument in all fairness. Though again i do find it peculiar that Italy/France doesn't take more of a lead in what is clearly a serious issue. Traffiking should be stopped at source or as close to it as possible for all involved. Less exploitation of immigrants by traffickers/ less immigrants for Europe - it's win/win.

In regards to Illegal immigrants escaping from Libya and Syria, ideally they should be removed to a UN led initiative in the region until it settles down (I believe Jordan has been taking in immigrants) again at source it should be stopped- no need to flee- go here. As i've said to Stav this needs to be an international effort in all aspects.

[Emperor Arcturus Mengsk]

I haven't yet seen anyone make this argument in all fairness. Though again i do find it peculiar that Italy/France doesn't take more of a lead in what is clearly a serious issue. Traffiking should be stopped at source or as close to it as possible for all involved. Less exploitation of immigrants by traffickers/ less immigrants for Europe - it's win/win.

In regards to Illegal immigrants escaping from Libya and Syria, ideally they should be removed to a UN led initiative in the region until it settles down (I believe Jordan has been taking in immigrants) again at source it should be stopped- no need to flee- go here. As i've said to Stav this needs to be an international effort in all aspects.

For this particular thread you are right, but there has been tens of threads about these kind of situations, and I think it's only a matter of time someone who prides himself in armchair moral superiority is bound to hop in and say it

[Stavroforos]

For this particular thread you are right, but there has been tens of threads about these kind of situations, and I think it's only a matter of time someone who prides himself in armchair moral superiority is bound to hop in and say it

They're too busy in the Ukraine thread

[Holger Danske]

I think he was pretty clear. Pay Holgers money back so he can pay his bills and flame on the internet about humanitarian rights in the ukraine.

1) I'm not German, so no need for paying back, just don't ask for money. 2) Humanitarian rights in the Ukraine... I've seen you do much better.

[Stavroforos]

Well, it's not really your problem (especially not Denmark's), but it's that the current way things are done works for nobody expect for those making the policy in Bruxelles. We have to spend money we don't have patrolling our waters, rescuing, and then putting these people in facilities, and since we don't have any money these facilities suck or their life in Greece sucks once they leave the facilities since there's no way for them to improve their lot here. It hurts us and it hurts them, but we can't do any differently because the EU policy that is decided by the Northern state says that that is what we're supposed to do, while these Northern countries do little to help out securing the borders of their vaunted EU and they don't have to deal with the people at all. I'm not saying we should punish the North by giving them the migrants, but that the current solution is the worst possible one.

Just reposting my response to Holger so we can carry on the discussion.

[Visna]

Well, it's not really your problem (especially not Denmark's), but it's that the current way things are done works for nobody expect for those making the policy in Bruxelles. We have to spend money we don't have patrolling our waters, rescuing, and then putting these people in facilities, and since we don't have any money these facilities suck or their life in Greece sucks once they leave the facilities since there's no way for them to improve their lot here. It hurts us and it hurts them, but we can't do any differently because the EU policy that is decided by the Northern state says that that is what we're supposed to do, while these Northern countries do little to help out securing the borders of their vaunted EU and they don't have to deal with the people at all. I'm not saying we should punish the North by giving them the migrants, but that the current solution is the worst possible one.

Are there any reliable numbers on how many of them intend to stay in Greece and how many view Greece as just a necessary stop on the way?

[Stavroforos]

Are there any reliable numbers on how many of them intend to stay in Greece and how many view Greece as just a necessary stop on the way?

I'll look it up, but the popular consensus and the one that's brought forward by the media is that they think of Greece as the gateway to Europe, not the final destination.

[Thorn777]

1) I'm not German, so no need for paying back, just don't ask for money. 2) Humanitarian rights in the Ukraine... I've seen you do much better.

You admittedly dont care about basic asylum procedures that are based on humanitarian rights, to for instance make sure you dont send people back to where they are politically proscecuted.

Then when it matters to you. But I admit I dont really know if it was about Ukrainian humanitarian issues. I dont really read much of your posts. I think they where more about Putins secret plan to conquer more lands bit by bit with his largest territoral country in the world with very few people living there and having 1/3 of global natural ressources, that would surely warrant such suspiscions on his this typical eastern devioussnes. Not powergames between two global powers where rules are broken all the time, specially by one side...

[Condottiere 40K]

Need to fill the moat with more dragons.

[hellheaven1987]

I'll look it up, but the popular consensus and the one that's brought forward by the media is that they think of Greece as the gateway to Europe, not the final destination.

Ya, I thought we have gone through this many times in Mudpit during all those Greece crisis threads, and it is amazing how quick people forget it; perhaps they would remember again when Greek police push more migrants into sea.

Iberia and Italy are two more spots that share the same migrant issue as Greece.

[Stavroforos]

Ya, I thought we have gone through this many times in Mudpit during all those Greece crisis threads, and it is amazing how quick people forget it; perhaps they would remember again when Greek police push more migrants into sea.

Iberia and Italy are two more spots that share the same migrant issue as Greece.

I'm not sure I can recall such a thing happening.

[Knight of Heaven]

The usual childish northern european argument about events like this.

"I'm liberal, I love everyone! I am multicultural! I'm humane!!! but YOU do it, and don't you dare to send these lovely people OUR way because YOU have to take care of them!"

bad dum tish.

Why should it even be our job in the first place?

Oh yeah, I remember now, it's because we have money and functional societies... Shame on us.

Because it's your territorial waters, not ours? And yeah "thank you" for "saving" us, however, lucky we have Sweden next door which bascially means that we have a lot less trouble dealing with immigrants because of their need to be morally superior.
I really don't care what you do with them. It seems you have a lot of other more important things to solve first.

Im so happy! European solidarity is so beautiful and grander, The european dream is obviously meant to be.
I cant wait.

[Costin_Razvan]

Set up EU controlled and policed refugee camps in Northern Africa, by military force if necessary and shove all those people there.

Then embark on program of education so that those that might be useful to the EU can join us, the rest can live out their lives in those camps. EU doesn't owe these people anything. If anything the European navies should be deployed to sink all these vessels.

[Knight of Heaven]

Set up EU controlled and policed refugee camps in Northern Africa, by military force if necessary and shove all those people there.

Then embark on program of education so that those that might be useful to the EU can join us, the rest can live out their lives in those camps. EU doesn't owe these people anything. If anything the European navies should be deployed to sink all these vessels.

because european naives are in the busyness of sinking civilians right?!

So your solution create concentration camps ( in other countries ), and/or sink boats full of civilians...

Bravo.

[Stavroforos]

Set up EU controlled and policed refugee camps in Northern Africa, by military force if necessary and shove all those people there.

Then embark on program of education so that those that might be useful to the EU can join us, the rest can live out their lives in those camps. EU doesn't owe these people anything. If anything the European navies should be deployed to sink all these vessels.

This is a joke post, whether you intended it be or not. Like, it's a horrid suggestion on so many levels.

[AqD]

Should we rescue illegal immigrants about to drown or not though? It's a yes or no question.

It's neither, since some people have different opinions. I say we just make a call and ask people who want to save them to come and save them, by themselves of course.

[Caligula's_Horse]

Set up EU controlled and policed refugee camps in Northern Africa, by military force if necessary and shove all those people there.

Then embark on program of education so that those that might be useful to the EU can join us, the rest can live out their lives in those camps. EU doesn't owe these people anything. If anything the European navies should be deployed to sink all these vessels.

You know, its really not all that hard to turn away civilian vessels without sinking them.

Ordering the ships to the bottom of the sea is like posting an armed guard with orders to shoot to kill where a simple fence would have been sufficient.

[Phier]

Oceans are big, and they would be going out of their way to not be seen in the first place. Most people underestimate the power and danger of a long distance water crossing until they have been there. Basically, stuff happens.

[Stavroforos]

Oceans are big, and they would be going out of their way to not be seen in the first place. Most people underestimate the power and danger of a long distance water crossing until they have been there. Basically, stuff happens.

Actually Phier, they go out of their way to get spotted and picked up because that guarantees that they will be processed somewhere in the EU.