Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

[The Crooked Philosopher]

Total War: Attila review on Sassanid:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Would you like to comment on these units?

[Diocle]

Is it there any need to comment the units we are seeing on Attila TW? They are simply HORRID!

[naddum]

In terms of the predecessors to the Islamic Ghulams slave warriors, theres no evidence of such in Sasanian Iran. The predecessors were likely from Sogdiana, namely the Chakirs.

As for the preview:


(I wasn't even being picky!)

[Gäiten]

I should mention that the Strategikon does detail Sassanid Warfare quite vividly...

No it does not. It just scratch the Late Sassanian warfare.

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Interesting threads with interesting arguments. Wonder I have found it so late.

[Reno Melitensis]

No it does not. It just scratch the Late Sassanian warfare.

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Interesting threads with interesting arguments. Wonder I have found it so late.

It is never too late.
When I saw that officer helmet I scratched my head in astonishment. The only similar helmet to that one I ever saw belonged to Thor on the Marvel comic books. So in a few words Attila is going to be a total comic by historical standards. Its a shame.


Cheers

[Gäiten]

There is even discussion of the Sassanians used helmets with horns.

[Riothamus]

There is even discussion of the Sassanians used helmets with horns.

Nice to see you nthis way Gäiten

[Gäiten]

You are welcome, Rio

If I may ask, how many units would you like to have for the Sassanians in IB2?

[naddum]

Winged and horned helmets would be rare, reserved only for Kings and Princes and the like. The Marzbans and Spahbeds had their own specific diadems to be worn around helmets which is detailed in Gyelesen's "Great-Commander (wuzurg-framadār) and court counselor (dar-andarzbed) in the Sasanian Empire (224-651): The sigillogrpahic evidence"

No way would I give regular soldiers, regular commanders, and even bodyguard soldiers such status items.

[cire992]

In terms of the predecessors to the Islamic Ghulams slave warriors, theres no evidence of such in Sasanian Iran. The predecessors were likely from Sogdiana, namely the Chakirs.

As for the preview:


(I wasn't even being picky!)

All things not to say if you meet one of those guys in a dark alley. Seriously though, even if that unit looked perfect, would it really make Atilla more fun to play? Its problems are way beyond the aesthetic, I think. Rome 1 got away with a lot worse than this, but it got a pass because it was so addictively fun. I don't look at Rome II and Atilla as being games people will be nostalgic over ten years from now. Even after all the roster overhauls and realism mods, it's just a pig in make-up. IBFD meanwhile, will be icing on a cake.

[Riothamus]

You are welcome, Rio

If I may ask, how many units would you like to have for the Sassanians in IB2?

I would like to keep it in the range of 16 to 20 units. This includes highly specialized units. The Sassanians will have the highest ratio of cavalry to infantry. Anything more is over kill.. Your thoughts on this Gäiten? Reno, Midnight. and Rhalina will need to be included for this final decision

[naddum]

16 - 20 including or excluding regional specific units? Or would they be AOR?

[Gäiten]

Hmm, I recomend you the following:

Cavalry:
Pushtigban - body guard unit (super heavy lancers)
Zhayyedan (immortals) - main line of house of Sassan "comitatus" - clibinarii lancers
Vaspuragan - princely Asavaran - clibinarii lancers
Wuzurgan - Asavaran of the Grand Clans - - clibinarii lancers
Azadan - minor Iranian nobles - cataphract horse archers
Dehkans - Iranian yeomen - medium horse archers

Infantry
Payghan - simple levied peasant, of very low battle value
medium spearmen, better quality, maybe padded armor
heavy spearmen, mail armor
slingers
javelinmen (must not be only Kurdish)
footarchers - medium foot archers, , maybe padded armor
royal footarchers - elite archers, mail armor
Daylami Infantry - regional infantry, rather medium
Kushan infantry - regional infantry, rather medium
Armenian infantry- regional infantry, rather heavy
Sughdian warrior - regional infantry, rather heavy

[naddum]

Wuzurgan and Washpuhragan??
Come on man, can you imagine a unit mixed up with Mihrans and Sasanians and Karens and Ispabhudhans and Kanarangiyan?
Most dysfunctional unit ever, amirite
Imagine Bahram Chobin fighting in the same unit as Hormozd. Not as commanders of their own smaller private armies, but as individual warriors in a unit.


For 16-20 units, I would recommend the following core units, in addition to any AORs eg: Sogdians, Hephthalites, Gandharans, Indians, etc.

Cavalry
- Pushtigban
- Aswaran-i-tanurig (maille+cuirass, lance+sword)
- Kamandar-i-tanurig (maille+cuirass, mounted archers, bow+sword)
- Aswaran-i-zrehposh (maille only, or with textile over it)
- Aswaran-i-dihgan (maille only, slightly worse stats than the zrehposh or different weapons)
- Aswaran-i-kamandar (mounted archers, light cavalry)
- Aswaran-i-nezag (mounted javelins, light cavalry)
- Pilban (elephants)

Infantry
- Shkoh paygan - levy peasants
- Payahdag nezagan - basic spearmen with javelins
- Kamandaran-i-payahdag - basic archers
- Kamandaran-i-zrehposh - armoured archers capable in melee
- Tanurig payahdag - armoured infantry with bow and sword
- Pahikafishn payahdagan - armoured assault infantry armed with two handed swords and two handed axes, no missile capability
- Kamandaran-i-shahig - royal archers, with good melee and missile capabilities.

AORs -

Gandhara / Kashmir should be heavy on capable, light and heavy infantry. There is a ton of evidence for Gandharan arms and armour so this should not be a challenge. This region should have capable mounted archers and heavy cavalry as well that have different appearances.

Sindh should provide some of the Indian style units equipped as per Ajanta, with more infantry and especially powerful foot archers, with more powerful elephantry as well. There should be capable charge cavalry and javelin cavalry but weak mounted archers.

Central Asia should provide mounted archers and heavy cavalry that is better than native Iranian units, but be poor on infantry. Again, follow the Gandharan style of arms and armour this early. I am not sure how far east the map goes but if it extends as far as Usrushana, Chach, Semirechye, and Khotan, these warriors can be equipped in a more Sogdian / Khotanese fashion

Armenia should provide capable cavalry and infantry.

Arabia should provide light cavalry, mailled cavalry, camel mounted warriors, and light infantry. Archers with longbows.

Deylam should obviously provide excellent infantry armed with javelins, spears, swords, axes.

[Gäiten]

I believe the distinction between Vaspuragan and Vuzurgan shows well the feudal structure of Eransahr. For example, Karen Asavaran (-> Wuzurgan) and Kushansahr Asasavaran (-> Vaspuragan), both are separate distinctive units. Due the limited unit number Rio is up to give the Sassanian faction, it might simply be the name of rank the noble group had in society.
Vuzurgan units could only be recruited in regions wherein Vaspuragan could not be recruited (and vis versa).

Your unit distinction toward the equipment is very interesting, either.

BTW in which time era is IB2 going to play?

[naddum]

IB1 tried that layout - with a different cavalry unit for each of the noble houses. To be honest it didn't really work IMHO - too many units were too similar with little more than aesthetic differences.

The Kushano-Sasanian units IMHO should be AOR.

[Reno Melitensis]

Gaiten the start date would be the middle of the fifth century AD. We are still undecided about the start date.

Cheers

[Gäiten]

Never forget the feudal retinues were only one aspect of the army, there were foederati, tribal levies recruited inside of the Eransahr, mercenaries. These all made the fascinating mix the Sassanian Spah was.

[The Crooked Philosopher]

Wuzurgan and Washpuhragan??
Come on man, can you imagine a unit mixed up with Mihrans and Sasanians and Karens and Ispabhudhans and Kanarangiyan?
Most dysfunctional unit ever, amirite
Imagine Bahram Chobin fighting in the same unit as Hormozd. Not as commanders of their own smaller private armies, but as individual warriors in a unit.


For 16-20 units, I would recommend the following core units, in addition to any AORs eg: Sogdians, Hephthalites, Gandharans, Indians, etc.

Cavalry
- Pushtigban
- Aswaran-i-tanurig (maille+cuirass, lance+sword)
- Kamandar-i-tanurig (maille+cuirass, mounted archers, bow+sword)
- Aswaran-i-zrehposh (maille only, or with textile over it)
- Aswaran-i-dihgan (maille only, slightly worse stats than the zrehposh or different weapons)
- Aswaran-i-kamandar (mounted archers, light cavalry)
- Aswaran-i-nezag (mounted javelins, light cavalry)
- Pilban (elephants)

Infantry
- Shkoh paygan - levy peasants
- Payahdag nezagan - basic spearmen with javelins
- Kamandaran-i-payahdag - basic archers
- Kamandaran-i-zrehposh - armoured archers capable in melee
- Tanurig payahdag - armoured infantry with bow and sword
- Pahikafishn payahdagan - armoured assault infantry armed with two handed swords and two handed axes, no missile capability
- Kamandaran-i-shahig - royal archers, with good melee and missile capabilities.

AORs -

Gandhara / Kashmir should be heavy on capable, light and heavy infantry. There is a ton of evidence for Gandharan arms and armour so this should not be a challenge. This region should have capable mounted archers and heavy cavalry as well that have different appearances.

Sindh should provide some of the Indian style units equipped as per Ajanta, with more infantry and especially powerful foot archers, with more powerful elephant as well. There should be capable charge cavalry and javelin cavalry but weak mounted archers.

Central Asia should provide mounted archers and heavy cavalry that is better than native Iranian units, but be poor on infantry. Again, follow the Gandharan style of arms and armour this early. I am not sure how far east the map goes but if it extends as far as Usrushana, Chach, Semirechye, and Khotan, these warriors can be equipped in a more Sogdian / Khotanese fashion

Armenia should provide capable cavalry and infantry.

Arabia should provide light cavalry, mailed cavalry, camel mounted warriors, and light infantry. Archers with longbows.

Deylam should obviously provide excellent infantry armed with javelins, spears, swords, axes.

Your infantry have too many missile options, but what i've found is that such missile function wasn't available in the Roman historical record nor the Arab record.

For example: Payahdag nezagan capable of hurling javelin and fought with spear sounds too Roman than Persian did.

Example 2: Tanurig payahdag, a hybrid unit capable of archery and swordsmanship. Your translation sounds very, very English than Middle Persian plus a hybrid like this shouldn't appear in the roster because it's a waste of resources to raise a hybrid army who are unable to capture fortified position by force while having issue on missile support. By the way, if i have armored archers and royal archers why do i need these armoed infantry(archer?)?

And again the so called two-handed sword or axe shock infantry, where's the solid evidence anyway? show us some article about these weapons or would you kindly draw us a rough sketch about these weapons so that we can evaluate it's function. Plus i think i would like to see a report about these "Wonder Weapon's" service record.

Plus Pilban should called Pilbanan.

Arab vassal's mailed cavalrymen was in fact Iranian cavalry not Arabs! Only a few of them are Arabs but they the King or General's retinue.

Actually javelin armed cavalry could defeat Elephants and they should have more punch than mounted archer.

In the end, you wish to make Iransahr a nation of archers and IMO its the worst thing to do.

And the peasant levies, actually they are unnecessary at all!

[The Crooked Philosopher]

From my research, Sassanid army do not recruit people who are not Zoroastrians to fill the ranks, which means in ordinary times only Iranian can join the army whether he is a peasant or a noble because Iranian believe an army should made up by people who share a common culture especially religion. Which means Sassanid army (do not include foreigners) was 100% Zoroastrian.