Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

[Reno Melitensis]

As if I gained any pleasure doing that.

I assumed this was a dead mod and a couple of months back it was.

Clearly now it is active once more.

Please not be funny, IBFD II was never a dead mod. We had and have other mods in development, so there are no dead mods here.

Cheers

[The Crooked Philosopher]

See "Arms and Armour from Iran" by Khorasani, page 417. Copyrighted so I can't post a scan. A similar one is in "Lexicon of Iranian arms and armour" whose blade is better preserved but I don't have the book so cannot give you a page number reference.

BTW, swords are sidearms for precisely the reasons I have described, not primary weapons.

I could understand why, since there's a strong archery tradition in Iransahr plus the game engine's advantage then why not give them dual armament for these units?

So, i think it would useless to have units like "Samsirdaran-i Shahvar" but what about an armored sword auxiliary with the ability to capture fortifications and holding the line against powerful opponent?

By the way, i have conducted a research on several older mod like SAI (Somnium Apostatae Iuliani), Flagellum Dei and i have discovered something or an error made by two of these team, from my research i conclude that there's no such unit as Gilani Infantry but there's Geloni (Alans) fighting as cavalry in the Siege of Amida and there's no record Gilani served in Sassanid army from the beginning until the end of the Iransahr.

So i have to admit my error to the team for previous posts i made which mentioned Gilani Hillmen.

Sorry.

[naddum]

Well, the swords I'm referring to are long and clearly two handed with long hilts. While I suppose one *could* scabbard them, the pommels would be extremely uncomfortable and would ride up quite high, so it would be quite impractical. It is a similar thing with soldiers equipped with polearms or two-handed axes, where such two-handed weapons become the primary with a smaller sword or dagger as the secondary. Of course you could always just drop them on the ground while you shot your bow ...

BTW can we stick with Middle Persian phonology please? "shamshir" is the modern Persian, "shamsher" is MP. Does the word "shahvar / shahwar" appear in McKenzie's Pahlavi dictionary?

I tend to prefer naming units after their function rather than their equipment when there is no documented terminology, so perhaps "payahdagan-i-tanurig" "payahdagan-i-shahig" "payahdagan-i-pahidukht" might be better for such a crack troop. That way, while the majority can be armed with these two-handed swords, we can equip some with two-handed axes as well for greater variety within the unit like the M2 engine allows. Tactically and strategically I do not believe there would be a significant enough difference between two-handed swords and two-handed axes to warrant them being separate units. Similarly for long poleaxes and short spears, which are often shown in mixed formation in Gandharan and Indian art.

[The Crooked Philosopher]

Well, the swords I'm referring to are long and clearly two handed with long hilts. While I suppose one *could* scabbard them, the pommels would be extremely uncomfortable and would ride up quite high, so it would be quite impractical. It is a similar thing with soldiers equipped with polearms or two-handed axes, where such two-handed weapons become the primary with a smaller sword or dagger as the secondary. Of course you could always just drop them on the ground while you shot your bow ...

BTW can we stick with Middle Persian phonology please? "shamshir" is the modern Persian, "shamsher" is MP. Does the word "shahvar / shahwar" appear in McKenzie's Pahlavi dictionary?

I tend to prefer naming units after their function rather than their equipment when there is no documented terminology, so perhaps "piyadagan-i-tanurig" "piyadagan-i-shahig" "piyadagan-i-pahidukht" might be better for such a crack troop. That way, while the majority can be armed with these two-handed swords, we can equip some with two-handed axes as well for greater variety within the unit like the M2 engine allows. Tactically and strategically I do not believe there would be a significant enough difference between two-handed swords and two-handed axes to warrant them being separate units. Similarly for long poleaxes and short spears, which are often shown in mixed formation in Gandharan and Indian art.

Gandhara but not Persian!

I wonder why would Persian use Gandharan weaponry or tactics and why two-handed weapon?

I found the word not from dictionary but EB website and they have a good translation there.

My translation:

Payadagan-i Zrehbaran

and there's something i need you to explain:

Why need Royal Infantry if you have competent non-nobility infantry to aid your cause and what's "piyadagan-i-pahidukht"? another word of your own design?

[naddum]

"Pahidukht" means assault / attack / charge, see McKenzie.

The correct MP would be "zrehposh," "zreh / zreg" is armour, "posh" means wearing.

There's a large amount of overlap between Gandharan and Iranian weaponry and equipment even though the two regions have very distinct styles. An upcoming article by Kubik in 2015 will deal with this greater detail. BTW, I was using Gandhara to illustrate a point, not to point at that region and say "look Sasanians did this!" The two two-handed swords that have been found are from sites in northern Iran near the Caspian coast. For Sasanian axes see Al-Sarraf, 2002, "Close combat weapons in the early Abbasid era: maces, axes, and swords"

[The Crooked Philosopher]

"Pahidukht" means assault / attack / charge, see McKenzie.

The correct MP would be "zregposh," "zreg" is armour, "posh" means wearing.

There's a large amount of overlap between Gandharan and Iranian weaponry and equipment even though the two regions have very distinct styles. An upcoming article by Kubik in 2015 will deal with this greater detail. BTW, I was using Gandhara to illustrate a point, not to point at that region and say "look Sasanians did this!" The two two-handed swords that have been found are from sites in northern Iran near the Caspian coast. For Sasanian axes see Al-Sarraf, 2002, "Close combat weapons in the early Abbasid era: maces, axes, and swords"

Unfortunately, there's no such word in any MP dictionary so i assume you made it up.

Habeas corpus, real evidence and links to those articles and evidence or else i will assume these is nothing but fabrication! and one more thing why don't you use proven research instead of research that is not available yet?

[naddum]

Correction, it should be "pahikafishn" or "henih"
See: MacKenzie, A concise Pahlavi dictionary, and Moshtagh-Khorasani, A lexicon of Iranian arms and armour, and Tafazoli, A lexicon of terms of weapons and armour in middle Iranian.
The articles and books I am citing are copyrighted. You can probably ask a library to get one on interlibraray loan.

[The Crooked Philosopher]

Yes, there are evidence that Sassanid have two-handed sword but the problem is:

1. Raw material and cost - in order to mass produce such weapon, huge quantity of iron was needed but unfortunately iron was scarce in Iran thus making shock troops with two-handed sword impractical.

2. Roman historical record - Should these unit present in the battlefield, the Romans will noticed their pressence, unfortunately they didn't appear in any Roman historical account.

In my opinion, two-handed sword and two-handed battle axe can only served as ceremonial weapons not a practical weapons against enemies such as the Romans.

[naddum]

TCP, you may wish to read Al-Sarrafs article I mentioned earlier. Khorasani has a good chapter on Sasanian swords and discussed the two handed swords. You should als familiarise yourself with the swords themselves in Khorasani's books and the metal analysis of the British Museum swords. There are finds of large axe heads only suitable for to handed or pole axes from Darel. IIRC Ammanus refers to a Roman soldier being cleaved in two during a siege (working from memory here!), something which would only be possible with a big two handed weapon. There was a flourishing trade of steel with India and Central Asia and Shapur I himself imported vast quantities of Roman iron as well. The two Sasanian swords in the British Museum have imported Indian and Marv steel, in fact, Marv was one of the major centres of steel metallurgy (see Simpsons publications on the Marv excavations) Iran was not *that* iron poor - certainly not poor enough to influence the development of heavily armoured cavalry, for example.

what is your reference to two-handed weapons being purely ceremonial?

[The Crooked Philosopher]

So what's your evidence that they deploy two-handed swordsmen in the battlefield especially against the Romans?

Tell me.

[The Crooked Philosopher]

Sassanid Persia was able to raise an army of armored cavalry thanks to the foundry of Iransahr but unfortunately there aren't too much steel left for two handed sword!

Did Ammianus mentioned that? i'd better look for the evidence!

If that is true, show me the paragraph that Ammianus mentioned Roman soldier cleaved by a Dismounted Iranian Cavalry!

[naddum]

TCP, please read the reference I have already listed. Also:

Sassanid Persia was able to raise an army of armored cavalry thanks to the foundry of Iransahr but unfortunately there aren't too much steel left for two handed sword!

the heck are you talking about????

I will try find the reference. BTW, I never mentioned "dismounted cavalry." In the meantime, I have listed numerous books and journals you would do well to have a read of before posting.
In the future can I ask that you provide citations for your statements as well please.

A further reference that may be of use: Glossaire des Inscriptions Pehlevis et Parthes, by Gignoux.

[The Crooked Philosopher]

Only i've seen your so called evidence.

[The Crooked Philosopher]

TCP, please read the reference I have already listed. Also:



the heck are you talking about????

I will try find the reference. BTW, I never mentioned "dismounted cavalry." In the meantime, I have listed numerous books and journals you would do well to have a read of before posting.
In the future can I ask that you provide citations for your statements as well please.

A further reference that may be of use: Glossaire des Inscriptions Pehlevis et Parthes, by Gignoux.

Unfortunately, for me you've just trying to hide your inability to explain why two-handed sword should include to the Sassanid arsenal.

You didn't mentioned "dismounted cavalry" eh? Then who have these wealth to wield these weapons?

So, you mean two-handed sword was a weapon for infantrymen, eh? That's sounds a little bit too good for infantrymen served only to support cavalry in assaulting walls and fortresses, and from my knowledge you've just trying to cover up the flaws of your previous posts.

Don't try to cover up your illogical passion to make IBFD a Shahnama! If you can't really show some evidence up then i'll consider you're just a misled and confused person who have nothing but Shahnama fantasies!

[The Crooked Philosopher]

You seems to have prejudice towards me, while Aetius said that Sassanid Persia was iron poor and was unable to mass produce siege weapon and you say NOTHING about it. When i said Iran have little iron for two-handed sword and you've snapped and for me this is double standard.

[naddum]

Phil, please read the references I listed above before throwing your rants and accusations.
i don't need to explain two handed swords as they have been found. Do you even know what they looked like?
There is another paper by Tafazoli that discusses infantry vs cavalry status and pay which you should read.

[Riothamus]

Stay on topic please naddum and The Crooked Professor. My head is spinning from the wealth of knowledge the both of you have brought to our forums. Please try and work together on the details. No one benefits otherewise

[The Crooked Philosopher]

Phil, please read the references I listed above before throwing your rants and accusations.
i don't need to explain two handed swords as they have been found. Do you even know what they looked like?
There is another paper by Tafazoli that discusses infantry vs cavalry status and pay which you should read.

Then show me the article! Why can't you show me the article?

Why don't you show us the picture? I wonder it looks like a Claymore or Zweihander?

Then it must have a manual that teach users how to wield it, but why there's no such manual survived? If you said you've seen a two-handed sword then show me the picture and let me see its true or not!

[The Crooked Philosopher]

Stay on topic please naddum and The Crooked Professor. My head is spinning from the wealth of knowledge the both of you have brought to our forums. Please try and work together on the details. No one benefits otherewise

Yes.

But don't you want to know where those knowledge come from? If he could post some articles here ....

[naddum]

Photos and articles are copyrighted so unfortunately I cannot post here.

BTW, on the link between Gandhara and Sasanians you can also read WÓJCIKOWSKI, 2014, GRAFFITO FROM DURA EUROPOS AND HYBRID ARMOR IN PARTHIAN-SASANIAN IRAN. This one is readable on academia.edu so you may be able to find it there.