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Thread: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

  1. #61

    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Here's an article about battle axe from Encyclopedia Iranica:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    BATTLE-AXES in Eastern Iran. Battle-axes made of bronze appeared in Eastern Iran during the Bronze Age. One such object comes from a burial at the Sapalli-tepa settlement in southern Uzbekistan. It has a shaft-hole, an elongated hammer butt, and its cutting edge largely widens towards the lower side. It is dated to the middle of the second millennium BCE (Askarov, p. 72, pl. XXVII/2). Battle-axes remained in use throughout antiquity and the Middle Ages (Litvinsky, 2001, pp. 418-24).
    The Avesta contains information about battle-axes called čakuš; the description of Mithra’s chariots in Yašt 10.131 mentions “well made double-edged iron axes” (Gershevitch, p. 139; cf. Jackson, p. 116; Herzfeld, II, p. 783). Yašt 1.18 also mentions battle-axes among other weapons. In both cases, the term čakuš is used, and its exact New Persian correspondence is čākoš, (‘hammer’ or ‘mallet’; see Jackson, p. 116; Malandra, p. 273). In Tajik, čakuš means ‘hammer’ or ‘mallet’; the verb čukidan means ‘to hammer’ or ‘to thresh’, and čukanda stands for ‘hand threshing tool.’ ; In the Old Persian, the terms isuvā (of unknown etymology, see Brandenstein and Mayrhofer, p. 127; Kent, p. 174), and, probably, vaçā (Malandra, p. 281) were used to describe battle-axes.
    Another reconstructable Old Persian term for the axes, namely *paraθu, goes back to the common Iranian *parasu (Abaev, p. 451; Bailey, pp. 13-14). For the battle-axe, Middle Persian used the term čakuš, as well as tabar and tabarzēn (Tafazzoli, pp. 188 and 192).
    To describe the pole-axes used by the Central Asian people, Greek authors used the term sagaris (Litvinskiǐ and P’yankov, p. 39). Copper pole-axes of the Massagetae (Herodotus, 9.215; Strabo, 9.8.6) and those of the Sakas (Herodotus, 7.64) are known. Quintus Curtius mentions double-blade pole-axes used by the Barkanians (Girkanians; see Curtius, 3.2.5).
    Archeological excavations at the sites of Central Asian nomads have produced metal battle-axes used by the Sakas and the Massagetae. A whole series of such battle-axes derives from the Sakas burials in the eastern Pamirs (Litvinskiǐ, 1972, pp. 121-25; Litvinskij, 1984, pp. 46-48, fig. 10). Their forms vary greatly (Plate 1), which makes it possible to distinguish several types. Two bi-metal pick-axes (with a bronze bush-ear and an iron blade) have been found in burial sites nearby the Aral Sea. The earliest objects of this type (dated to the 6th century BCE) include bi-metal axes and a double-edged axe which has a long, slightly curved faceted blade with a head on one side and a long narrow blade on the other. Other axes are dated to the 5th-3rd centuries BCE. These battle-axes have a wide range of similarities among the battle-axes from the Black Sea coast, the northern Caucasus, the Kama River region, Kazakhstan, southern Siberia, and northern China (Litvinskiǐ, 2001, pp. 420-24). Central Asian battle-axes closely resemble Achaemenid battle-axes known from iconographic materials and archeological finds.
    In eastern Iran, settled peoples continued using the battle-axes in warfare. Thus, iron battle-axes and an elongated silver pickaxe of an intricate shape with gilding have been found at the Old Nisa (Invernizzi, pp. 129-38, pl. H). Peculiar pickaxes, one made of bronze and several of iron, of the Indian ankuśa type, have been found at Ay Khanum (Francfort, pp. 56-69, pls. 21, 25, XXI, and XXXVI). Pickaxes and battle hammers are presented in Central Asian and Inner Asian (northern India included) iconography, as well as on coins of the late Hellenistic and post-Hellenistic times (for detailed lists with bibliographical references see Invernizzi, pp. 137-38). A warrior depicted on a plate from Orlat holds in his hand a double-edged pickaxe (Ilyasov and Rusanov, pls. IV/1 and XIII), but this is already early 3rd century CE.
    Iconography and archaeological finds testify that battle-axes were still in use in the 5th-8th centuries, both as a weapon in battle and as a symbol of power of a ruler or a military commander. A silver dish from the Kulagysh village contains the scene of on-foot combat which shows broken battle-axes with a rounded cutting edge and with the butt-end in the shape of a long blade (Orbeli and Trever, table 21). Similar objects can be found in the paintings of Pendjikent. An iron battle-axe with a rounded narrow blade and a small butt was found in the layer of the 6th-7th centuries at Aktepe of Yunusabad near Tashkent (Terenozhkin, pp. 123-24, fig. 25/7; Raspopova, pp. 77-78).
    Ceremonial maces existed too, they frequently appear in wall paintings. A real object of the type with the upper part executed like a male head has been found at the Azhartepa (Berdimuradov and Samibaev, p. 40, figs. 93-94).
    Battle-axes of various types continued to be manufactured and used in Eastern Iran up until the Late Middle Ages (Mukminvoa, p. 114).



    Here's the map of Gilan or Daylam (Antiquity):

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Last edited by The Crooked Philosopher; October 01, 2014 at 07:55 AM.

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Oh wait, I have some good maps of the Sassanid Empire. I will upload them so you can use them when I get home.

  3. #63

    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Here's the map:


  4. #64

    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    I wonder that the unit Sogdian Warrior, is it historically accurate or just a dismounted version of Sogdian Warrior?



    In my thought, it would be better the team give this unit a name: Artestar-i Sugh or Dismounted Sughdian Cavalry.



    Asavaran should have lance and sword not bow.

    Why? because i've played the older version of IBFD and they have become a tank (almost all of them) that fire from a long distance thus making foot archers and light cavalry useless. In my honest opinion it should be lancer not mounted archer.

    I've seen the Zhayedan in IBFD, so i suggest the team look for Gaiiten becuase he seems to have a good knowledge about them, the Zhayedan he introduce that they have at least three known regiment : Red, Yellow, Blue and a rare Gold Regiment.
    Last edited by The Crooked Philosopher; October 01, 2014 at 09:30 PM.

  5. #65

    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by The Crooked Philosopher View Post
    I wonder that the unit Sogdian Warrior, is it historically accurate or just a dismounted version of Sogdian Warrior?



    In my thought, it would be better the team give this unit a name: Artestar-i Sugh or Dismounted Sughdian Cavalry.



    Asavaran should have lance and sword not bow.

    Why? because i've played the older version of IBFD and they have become a tank (almost all of them) that fire from a long distance thus making foot archers and light cavalry useless. In my honest opinion it should be lancer not mounted archer.

    I've seen the Zhayedan in IBFD, so i suggest the team look for Gaiiten becuase he seems to have a good knowledge about them, the Zhayedan he introduce that they have at least three known regiment : Red, Yellow, Blue and a rare Gold Regiment.
    In my IB VGR mod I balanced that out. I'm not worried about the supertank with bow if correctly made statistically and in the frame work of the mods faction units expense.
    Artestar-i Sugh or Dismounted Sughdian Cavalry sound good to me, Thank You
    Last edited by Riothamus; October 02, 2014 at 04:38 AM.

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  6. #66
    rhalina's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Riothamus View Post
    In my IB VGR mod I balanced that out. I'm not worried about the supertank with bow if correctly made statistically and in the frame work of the mods faction units expense.
    I think the same, just to avoid complete armies (IA or player) using this


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  7. #67
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    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post14129281

    Images of Daylami warriors from various periods. Thought it would be useful to you guys. Was posted in the Vestigia Vetustasis this morning.

    Some decent maps:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._-_620_A.D.png

    http://iranpoliticsclub.net/maps/ima...0600%20Map.jpg

    http://www.humanjourney.us/images/Ro...anFrontier.jpg
    Last edited by Magister Militum Flavius Aetius; October 02, 2014 at 05:56 AM.

  8. #68

    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Wow, that really helps!

    If so we have what we need to create our own Daylami units:



    Since we have a confirmed answer about their shield, then what we need is units to represent their military prowess.

    As they are capable of fighting wiht spear or javelin, sword and axe, i suggest the team create three unit of the Daylami units:

    1. Tabargane Daylamig - Daylami warrior with Tabar and Zubin

    2. Nizagan-i Daylamig -Dayalami warrior with spear and Zubin.

    3. Samsirdaran-i Dayamig - Daylami warrior with sword and Zubin.
    Last edited by The Crooked Philosopher; October 02, 2014 at 07:17 AM.

  9. #69

    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP


    Deylam Sagaris Axemen
    The sagaris is an ancient waraxe used from the time of ancient Greece, the surrounding peoples have similar versions or copies of this very effective and brutal weapon. The Deylamites (Daylamites/Dimli/Dimili) were known for their skirmishers and their use of the war-axe.\n\nThe Deylamite Infantry is considered as one of the best infantry in the middle east, if not the best. Roman sources have spoken highly of the Deylamites`s skills and hardiness in close combat with sword and dagger. The Arab scholar Muqaddasi reported that Dailam was ‘neither too big, nor too beautiful’. The Arab historians wrote that the Dailamites were a strong and numerous race, renowned for its extraordinary courage and its great endurance, and whose representatives had a good looking, commanding appearance and handsome beards. An Arab source calls the Dailamites ashqar ‘a rosy colour’. The long and disordered hair of the Dailamites has at all times produced fresh metaphores of the poets who mentioned their black skull caps just as often.

    What is the evidence that show they use two handed sagaris? as far as i know sagaris was used by early Achaemenids not Sassanids and certainly not two handed axe! I would appreciate if anyone could gave me some answer.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    The Sagaris fell out of use in the Early Sarmatian Period (think 1st Century AD). Just saying.

  11. #71

    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by The Crooked Philosopher View Post
    Wow, that really helps!

    If so we have what we need to create our own Daylami units:



    Since we have a confirmed answer about their shield, then what we need is units to represent their military prowess.

    As they are capable of fighting wiht spear or javelin, sword and axe, i suggest the team create three unit of the Daylami units:

    1. Tabargane Daylamig - Daylami warrior with Tabar and Zubin

    2. Nizagan-i Daylamig -Dayalami warrior with spear and Zubin.

    3. Samsirdaran-i Dayamig - Daylami warrior with sword and Zubin.
    We will look see over this


    Quote Originally Posted by The Crooked Philosopher View Post

    Deylam Sagaris Axemen
    The sagaris is an ancient waraxe used from the time of ancient Greece, the surrounding peoples have similar versions or copies of this very effective and brutal weapon. The Deylamites (Daylamites/Dimli/Dimili) were known for their skirmishers and their use of the war-axe.\n\nThe Deylamite Infantry is considered as one of the best infantry in the middle east, if not the best. Roman sources have spoken highly of the Deylamites`s skills and hardiness in close combat with sword and dagger. The Arab scholar Muqaddasi reported that Dailam was ‘neither too big, nor too beautiful’. The Arab historians wrote that the Dailamites were a strong and numerous race, renowned for its extraordinary courage and its great endurance, and whose representatives had a good looking, commanding appearance and handsome beards. An Arab source calls the Dailamites ashqar ‘a rosy colour’. The long and disordered hair of the Dailamites has at all times produced fresh metaphores of the poets who mentioned their black skull caps just as often.

    What is the evidence that show they use two handed sagaris? as far as i know sagaris was used by early Achaemenids not Sassanids and certainly not two handed axe! I would appreciate if anyone could gave me some answer.
    We will change the unit it if not historically accurate... Thank You for the info above
    Last edited by Riothamus; October 06, 2014 at 11:39 AM.

    Under the esteemed patronage of Ramon Gonzales y Garcia IB and IB2 Mod

  12. #72

    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    What's the historical source for this particular unit? any evidence?

  13. #73
    naddum's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Two-handed axes were common in eastern Iran and Gandhara, but in western Iran a smaller one-handed axe was more common. BTW, I think the M2 engine allows individual soldiers in a unit to be armed and armoured differently so I would suggest merging the tabargan and shamshirdaran into a regular "Piyadagan-i-Delamig" and having a separate "Nezagan-i-Delamig" which has spears or pikes. Both of these should have javelins.

    I would also suggest using one of the many known helmets from Amlash / Cheragh Ali Tappeh rather than whatever is shown here, and giving them hauberks (+/- a cuirass on top) rather than a long scale coat.

    I'd also avoid using specific Sogdian units before the 6th Century - especially those equipped from Panjakent paintings. There are some Sogdian paintings from the 5th Century but they tend to show military gear in the Gandharan fashion rather than a later Sogdian fashion.

    What is the evidence for the overly decorated shields?

    BTW, thanks for posting some of my reenactment group's images earlier on in the thread - always nice to see that content being circulated! :-D

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    On the subject of shield decorations, do you thing the majority of sassanid troops carried plain wooden shields on them with no decoration at all.

    Cheers

  15. #75

    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    I don't think most Sassanid infantry have that kind of shield since wood was scarce, they may use spara shield made by wicker and raw hide.

  16. #76

    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by naddum View Post
    Two-handed axes were common in eastern Iran and Gandhara, but in western Iran a smaller one-handed axe was more common. BTW, I think the M2 engine allows individual soldiers in a unit to be armed and armoured differently so I would suggest merging the tabargan and shamshirdaran into a regular "Piyadagan-i-Delamig" and having a separate "Nezagan-i-Delamig" which has spears or pikes. Both of these should have javelins.

    I would also suggest using one of the many known helmets from Amlash / Cheragh Ali Tappeh rather than whatever is shown here, and giving them hauberks (+/- a cuirass on top) rather than a long scale coat.

    I'd also avoid using specific Sogdian units before the 6th Century - especially those equipped from Panjakent paintings. There are some Sogdian paintings from the 5th Century but they tend to show military gear in the Gandharan fashion rather than a later Sogdian fashion.

    What is the evidence for the overly decorated shields?

    BTW, thanks for posting some of my reenactment group's images earlier on in the thread - always nice to see that content being circulated! :-D
    Welcome comrade, good to see you here.

  17. #77
    naddum's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Most of the shields in Sogdian art are a plain colour (blue, green, red) with brass bosses. Some have simple floral decorations with eight or six petals but rarely is there something more complex. There is an argument for occasional use of sun shields with complex repousse bosses for the richer guys. In contrast, I believe the spara shields were relatively rare as they only appear once in finds (Dura) and once in artwork (Gandhara). Most Gandharan shields are of the North Indian variety with lobes and parrying sections. Circular and bell shaped shields are also common. Deylamis should have an elliptical shield.

    I think a Roman writer once remarked on Sasanian cavalry having wicker shields and wicker helmets. I interpret these guys as light cavalry wearing qalansuwas (later Arab historians report the qalansuwa was a hat with a wicker frame) armed with bows, swords, and Dura style shields.

    Sasanian archers should have a row of mantlets in front of them to protect them from incoming fire - this could be made of bundles of material or wicker, as depicted on the siege scene at Panjakent.
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  18. #78
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    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by The Crooked Philosopher View Post
    Why? because i've played the older version of IBFD and they have become a tank (almost all of them) that fire from a long distance thus making foot archers and light cavalry useless. In my honest opinion it should be lancer not mounted archer.
    IMHO all Sasanian cavalry should be armed with a bow in addition to a melee weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Crooked Philosopher View Post
    I've seen the Zhayedan in IBFD, so i suggest the team look for Gaiiten becuase he seems to have a good knowledge about them, the Zhayedan he introduce that they have at least three known regiment : Red, Yellow, Blue and a rare Gold Regiment.
    I want to see a source for this.
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  19. #79
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    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    The 6th century Ashburnham Pentatuech shows Romans with "Square" shields which could easily be sassanid type shields.

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

    Quote Originally Posted by naddum View Post
    Most of the shields in Sogdian art are a plain colour (blue, green, red) with brass bosses. Some have simple floral decorations with eight or six petals but rarely is there something more complex. There is an argument for occasional use of sun shields with complex repousse bosses for the richer guys. In contrast, I believe the spara shields were relatively rare as they only appear once in finds (Dura) and once in artwork (Gandhara). Most Gandharan shields are of the North Indian variety with lobes and parrying sections. Circular and bell shaped shields are also common. Deylamis should have an elliptical shield.

    I think a Roman writer once remarked on Sasanian cavalry having wicker shields and wicker helmets. I interpret these guys as light cavalry wearing qalansuwas (later Arab historians report the qalansuwa was a hat with a wicker frame) armed with bows, swords, and Dura style shields.

    Sasanian archers should have a row of mantlets in front of them to protect them from incoming fire - this could be made of bundles of material or wicker, as depicted on the siege scene at Panjakent.
    I have taken note of your post. Thanks. + rep. But plain shields where round, oval or rectangular. ?.

    Cheers
    Last edited by Reno Melitensis; October 26, 2014 at 01:36 PM.

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