Sassanids Unit Preview WIP

[Gäiten]

Herein I disagree.

For example many Christians and even Jews fought for the Shahansha.

Or do you have sources for this claim?

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Gaiten the start date would be the middle of the fifth century AD. We are still undecided about the start date.

Cheers

Let me know what you decide on, I can post relevant maps.

[The Crooked Philosopher]

Herein I disagree.

For example many Christians and even Jews fought for the Shahansha.

Or do you have sources for this claim?

If you are trying to call Jewish zealot and Christian Armenian as fighter then sorry they are not the core of the Iransahr military.

[Gäiten]

You had said:

Which means Sassanid army (do not include foreigners) was 100% Zoroastrian.

In this I have disagreed with you.

Now you said:

If you are trying to call Jewish zealot and Christian Armenian as fighter then sorry they are not the core of the Iransahr military.

Now it is the core? Okay, but the core was the nobles and these were not belonging to the Zoroastrian belief.

[The Crooked Philosopher]

Oh really? Then why there's religion persecution?

If you need information please read Iraq after Muslim conquest by Michael G. Morony and you will know why especially on the ethnic

If the nobles are not Zoroastrians how do they coexist within the empire? Are they safe from persecution?

If there is no army, the sovereign remains without servants, the religion without adherents, the arms become useless, mercy obsolete, and the treasury unprofitable.

Like the quote i've written, if the army wasn't a Zoroastrian based army, will they support Shahanshah? The concept of Iransahr needs Zoroastrianism to support the throne both secular and spiritually support each other if people of bad religion enter the army then what going to happen Iransahr?

The only reason they allow such change is because the very pillar that supports Iransahr is no longer exists and they need replacement fast and that's why Iransahr fall from grace by allowing people that doesn't belong to the good religion to fill the empty ranks of the Spah.

By the way, what's your evidence Jews and Christians plus Arameans in Iransahr fought in battle? Evidence please!

[The Crooked Philosopher]

Wuzurgan and Washpuhragan??
Come on man, can you imagine a unit mixed up with Mihrans and Sasanians and Karens and Ispabhudhans and Kanarangiyan?
Most dysfunctional unit ever, amirite
Imagine Bahram Chobin fighting in the same unit as Hormozd. Not as commanders of their own smaller private armies, but as individual warriors in a unit.



For 16-20 units, I would recommend the following core units, in addition to any AORs eg: Sogdians, Hephthalites, Gandharans, Indians, etc.

Cavalry
- Pushtigban
- Aswaran-i-tanurig (maille+cuirass, lance+sword)
- Kamandar-i-tanurig (maille+cuirass, mounted archers, bow+sword)
- Aswaran-i-zrehposh (maille only, or with textile over it)
- Aswaran-i-dihgan (maille only, slightly worse stats than the zrehposh or different weapons)
- Aswaran-i-kamandar (mounted archers, light cavalry)
- Aswaran-i-nezag (mounted javelins, light cavalry)
- Pilban (elephants)

Infantry
- Shkoh paygan - levy peasants
- Payahdag nezagan - basic spearmen with javelins
- Kamandaran-i-payahdag - basic archers
- Kamandaran-i-zrehposh - armoured archers capable in melee
- Tanurig payahdag - armoured infantry with bow and sword
- Pahikafishn payahdagan - armoured assault infantry armed with two handed swords and two handed axes, no missile capability
- Kamandaran-i-shahig - royal archers, with good melee and missile capabilities.

AORs -

Gandhara / Kashmir should be heavy on capable, light and heavy infantry. There is a ton of evidence for Gandharan arms and armour so this should not be a challenge. This region should have capable mounted archers and heavy cavalry as well that have different appearances.

Sindh should provide some of the Indian style units equipped as per Ajanta, with more infantry and especially powerful foot archers, with more powerful elephantry as well. There should be capable charge cavalry and javelin cavalry but weak mounted archers.

Central Asia should provide mounted archers and heavy cavalry that is better than native Iranian units, but be poor on infantry. Again, follow the Gandharan style of arms and armour this early. I am not sure how far east the map goes but if it extends as far as Usrushana, Chach, Semirechye, and Khotan, these warriors can be equipped in a more Sogdian / Khotanese fashion

Armenia should provide capable cavalry and infantry.

Arabia should provide light cavalry, mailled cavalry, camel mounted warriors, and light infantry. Archers with longbows.

Deylam should obviously provide excellent infantry armed with javelins, spears, swords, axes.

Where's the Kurds?

[The Crooked Philosopher]

I believe the distinction between Vaspuragan and Vuzurgan shows well the feudal structure of Eransahr. For example, Karen Asavaran (-> Wuzurgan) and Kushansahr Asasavaran (-> Vaspuragan), both are separate distinctive units. Due the limited unit number Rio is up to give the Sassanian faction, it might simply be the name of rank the noble group had in society.
Vuzurgan units could only be recruited in regions wherein Vaspuragan could not be recruited (and vis versa).

Your unit distinction toward the equipment is very interesting, either.

BTW in which time era is IB2 going to play?

Feudal? do you think Iransahr was a feudal kingdom?

[The Crooked Philosopher]

No, what I mean is individual warriors within the unit can be equipped differently, albeit still with 2 arms.
Correct me if I'm way off with this, but I swear I have seen this sort of setup in games like Broken Crescent where some warriors in a unit would have axes, others sabres, other swords, etc

Broken Crescent? Bah! there ain't such settings but i've seen TGC mod have that settings.

Actually i have that game, don't try to fool me!

[The Crooked Philosopher]

In terms of the predecessors to the Islamic Ghulams slave warriors, theres no evidence of such in Sasanian Iran. The predecessors were likely from Sogdiana, namely the Chakirs.

As for the preview:


(I wasn't even being picky!)

As i said before, foot slave soldier not mounted slave warrior.

[Gäiten]

Oh really? Then why there's religion persecution?

If you need information please read Iraq after Muslim conquest by Michael G. Morony and you will know why especially on the ethnic

I know this book and herein is written that Jews fought in the Sassanian army (s. page 317).

Furthermore, in Tom Holland`s In the Shadow of the Sword is another source for this.
And Geo Widegren another (just have to find the correct book among the many he got published).

If the nobles are not Zoroastrians how do they coexist within the empire? Are they safe from persecution?

A typo, many nobles were followeers of Zoroaster, but Mithra and Anahid did had a great number of followers. And Christianity too.

If there is no army, the sovereign remains without servants, the religion without adherents, the arms become useless, mercy obsolete, and the treasury unprofitable.

Like the quote i've written, if the army wasn't a Zoroastrian based army, will they support Shahanshah? The concept of Iransahr needs Zoroastrianism to support the throne both secular and spiritually support each other if people of bad religion enter the army then what going to happen Iransahr?

The only reason they allow such change is because the very pillar that supports Iransahr is no longer exists and they need replacement fast and that's why Iransahr fall from grace by allowing people that doesn't belong to the good religion to fill the empty ranks of the Spah.

By the way, what's your evidence Jews and Christians plus Arameans in Iransahr fought in battle? Evidence please!

The concept of Eranshar was an ever evolving one. In the later empire, the core of Eransahr was Zoroastrian (here with region-specific forms) with very strong Christian (Nestorian Persian Church), Judaism and Buddhism. Times of persecutions were followed by tolerance.

Without this tolerance and acceptance the idea of Iran would have never survived the fall of the Sassanians and the turmoil and upheavals of the following centuries

[Reno Melitensis]

As far as I know, the Sassanids did persecute the christian living within their borders to irritate the ERE, but where more tolerant to schisms and sects as the Nestorians where. And the Lakhmids Arabs Nestorian Christians where their allies and could have fought for them.

Cheers

[The Crooked Philosopher]

As far as I know, the Sassanids did persecute the christian living within their borders to irritate the ERE, but where more tolerant to schisms and sects as the Nestorians where. And the Lakhmids Arabs Nestorian Christians where their allies and could have fought for them.

Cheers

Oh really? Persecuting Jews and Manicheans count as irritating the Romans?

Then in later times they too persecute the Nestorians too.

In my thought Iransahr was an abomination than a real regional superpower!

[The Crooked Philosopher]

I know this book and herein is written that Jews fought in the Sassanian army (s. page 317).

Furthermore, in Tom Holland`s In the Shadow of the Sword is another source for this.
And Geo Widegren another (just have to find the correct book among the many he got published).






A typo, many nobles were followers of Zoroaster, but Mithra and Anahid did had a great number of followers. And Christianity too.



The concept of Eranshar was an ever evolving one. In the later empire, the core of Eransahr was Zoroastrian (here with region-specific forms) with very strong Christian (Nestorian Persian Church), Judaism and Buddhism. Times of persecutions were followed by tolerance.

Without this tolerance and acceptance the idea of Iran would have never survived the fall of the Sassanians and the turmoil and upheavals of the following centuries

I would hesitate to call them soldier, but town patrol sounds logical to me. If they could join the Spah then there's no order anymore.

Oh really? but after that the Christians suffer persecution from time to time, am i right?

Yes, Iransahr evolves but still the very nature do not for example loathing other religion and regarding them as bad religion, using trickery and treachery to grab other people's land (allies and enemies), do harm to non-Iranians counted as defending Iransahr. If this is tolerance than Rome was the most tolerant empire in the known world!

[Reno Melitensis]

The Crooked Philosopher there is no need to answer questions and prove your views by being so arrogant as to suggest that your views are the ones only correct. Respect is the key to earn the respect of those that are disscussing with you here.

And yes the Sassanids petsecuted christians within their borders. The Nestorians where a sect and not regocnized by the Roman church. For this reason the Sassanids from time to time qept the Lakhmids as their vassals, until they accused them of betrayal. But it seems tha the Jews where never petsecuted by the Sassanids.

Cheers

[The Crooked Philosopher]

Yes they do, but unfortunately they themselves pretend to acknowledge the Nestorians but in fact trying to destroy them with trickery.

Oh, if you believe christians were the ones were being persecuted .

The Manicheans too suffer persecution, the Denkard speaks of divine punishment for being an apostate.

[The Crooked Philosopher]

Enough say, as all of us know the House of Sassan claims that they are the true heir of the Achaemenids (of course Roman rhetoric) but their insidious intention to conquer Asia Minor, Mesopotamia, Egypt, Armenia, Arabia and the Red Sea was undeniable.

In my eyes the Sassanid Dynasty share same traits as the Romans did. Both ruthless and arrogant.

Another question, how do you view the Sassanid? A respectable superpower? or a super rogue state?

[The Crooked Philosopher]

My conclusion about Naddum's unit roster was a person who have a dream about Iransahr that doesn't exist in reality.

The cavalry roster was acceptable except why called them Tanurigh? But the infantry roster was a totally unrealistic, especially great sword and Tabardariyya style infantry because he have ignore the very fabric of the Iranian society where no commoner could wield a cavalry sword or any weapons for nobles which means if they could wield these swords and weapons then it is the end of days where slaves become masters and master becomes slaves, in another word: blasphemy.

Sassanid regime did field armored infantry to confront the Romans, but not hybrid archer infantry as he believes.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/28587...-h/28587-h.htm page 368 paragraph 8 to 12.

However, his suggestion for the vassals and allies are totally right.

Historically, Iransahr's naval base did not exists at the shores of Iransahr but the coast of Mazunsahr (modern day Oman) and other coastal Arab states from Kuwait, UAE and finally Oman:

Sassanid warship in the Persian gulf should be traditional Arabic Dhow, probably modified merchant ship, while in the Mediterranean Roman warship should be available to the Iranians but with more restrictions on building such warships.

[Gäiten]

Your ideas are?

[Bashar Pavel Atreides]

My roster was quite simple, they include the core but not foreign levies like the Armenians, Gandhara, Sughdian, Arabs and etc:

Cavalry

Guard Cavalry or Pustigban (Royal for the King of Kings, regional for ,lesser kings, generals, family member)
"Immortals" or Zayedan
Grivpanvar/Clibanarii (cavalry with lance and mace)
Azadan Lancer (cavalry with lance and sword)
Azadan Cavalry (caavalry with bow and lance)
Dihqan cavalry (cavalry with bow and lance)
Indian corps

Infantry

Spearmen (basic infantry with spear and shield)
Armored spearmen (spear wielding infantry with mail shirt and helmet)
Sword auxiliary (medium infantry with short sword, shield, mail shirt and mail hood)
Iranian archer (infantry with bow and arrows with a buckler and sword)
Iranian hillmen (mountaineer with javelins and battle axes)
Slingers
Daylami Tribesmen (medium infantry with spear, zubin and shield)
Daylami Warrior (medium infantry with battle axes, zubin, shield and mail shirt)
Household Daylami (medium infantry with sword, zubin, mail shirt and shield)

[Bashar Pavel Atreides]

I forget something:

Royal Archers (archer with mail shirt, helmet, sword and shield)