Rome2 vs RSII - Where are we?

**Metamucil Monk** · April 29, 2015, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by ScorpionKing

With rs2 it's all about numbers

Can't help but feel that you're doing something wrong.

**Risasi** · May 02, 2015, 01:07 PM

Well, I didn't test it as fully as I should but RSII is not going anywhere off of my computers. I really wanted to like Rome 2 as a vanilla game, but quickly lost interest. The battles are just ugh, and while I think I like campaign aspects better overall it's not greatly superior to RTW/M2TW engines, just different.

DeI definitely has potential though. My only criticism is that while the battles are as significant as Paladin makes them out to be...I just didn't fight that many. It's almost hard to get a real war going...but to be fair I only played about 40 turns in and then got busy with work again. Plus the crappy medium/high graphics were giving me a headache.
I think I'll give DeI another try next year, when I'll probably upgrade hardware. But for now I feel like RSII offers me more balance of battle / campaign for my play preferences. Which is usually me getting on a binge for a few weeks at a time when work / family schedule slows down.

**est Dudus** · May 02, 2015, 06:20 PM

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is all I can say. I understand people like "SUPER GRAPHICS", but come on, really?????? Just go play that horrid game and we will enjoy this game. RS2 has a few problems, sure, but it is still the best experience one can have for Total War. I wish we could get a 2.7 or 3.0........not going to happen, but one can dream. Anyone that really thinks Rome 2 is better then this is just insane. I gave that abomination another try last month....just awful.

I think my favorite comment from you is "the battles are much worse then vanilla", what planet are you from?????

Anyways....please update the mod....many loyal fans still here.

**Risasi** · May 02, 2015, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by Ant909

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is all I can say. I understand people like "SUPER GRAPHICS", but come on, really?????? Just go play that horrid game and we will enjoy this game. RS2 has a few problems, sure, but it is still the best experience one can have for Total War. I wish we could get a 2.7 or 3.0........not going to happen, but one can dream. Anyone that really thinks Rome 2 is better then this is just insane. I gave that abomination another try last month....just awful.

I think my favorite comment from you is "the battles are much worse then vanilla", what planet are you from?????

Anyways....please update the mod....many loyal fans still here.

I wouldn't get too worked up. I think that dude was just trolling. His one and only post was just to rag on RSII. And even if he was being sincere, well then opinions are like...

**dvk901** · May 02, 2015, 08:27 PM

There will in fact be new updates to RS2. I am working on a MAJOR graphical update of all settlements, and 'Wraith of eternal doom' is working on an even better update of the battlefield environment.
Hopefully, there will be many bug fixes as well. After that, (at least) I will be working on updates to individual campaigns, as well as whole new and different ones, or variations of existing ones. I'm still adamant about re-working loyalty traits to bring about rebellions in a better way than is currently done in RS2 (which is too predictable now). It'll take time, but RS2 will go on in spite of Rome2, Attila, Rome3, Rome4 or whatever.!!

**_Tartaros_** · May 03, 2015, 02:43 AM

great to hear this - i regularly play my RSII campaigns a bit and enjoy this already great mod

**Grimbold** · May 03, 2015, 08:14 AM

Oy oy Dvk, i know it's RS, but try not to focus too much on the roman dogs. Throw a bone to the rest of us as well

**dvk901** · May 03, 2015, 09:48 AM

Heh....I was unclear on that. I'm talking about a set of traits regarding loyalty that will apply to every faction...not just the Romans.

**Ye Olde Fahrt** · May 03, 2015, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by dvk901

It'll take time, but RS2 will go on in spite of Rome2, Attila, Rome3, Rome4 or whatever.!!

Great news, this!

**Paladin247** · May 04, 2015, 05:20 PM

Whenever I'm playing, going back several years, I always keep a record of the campaign on a kill sheet that I originally downloaded on the SPQR site. You can track your forces by legion, battle and casualties. Currently I'm going into the third month of my first Dei campaign having completed an R2 vanilla campaign and multiple RS2 campaigns before that, the last being here:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ight=civil+war

Since the three campaigns have run roughly a similar amount of GT, I decided to go back over the saved sheets to examine the contrasts. I was surprised by what I found and thought it interesting.

The RS2 campaign (2.1a H/M) consumed about a year because half way thru, a civil war hit which took 80 of 120 provinces and just coming back from that to the end took six months of playing a couple hours/night most days. The campaign covered years 536-820 AUC, 285 game years @2TPY= 570GT. The legions fought in 1,198 battles losing 266,338 and killing 2,125,931 for a 7.98 kill ratio. Just Vth Macedonica fought in 89 battles; you can imagine how tough they were. Money was not a problem before or after the civil war, but was a nightmare during. At end with the map almost entirely red, the economy was easily supporting 27 legions, 8 aux cohorts and several large fleets.

By contrast, the vanilla R2 campaign only took four months to play out including a relatively easy to manage civil war. It covered 272BC-202AD or 474 game years @ 1TPY = 474GT. The legions fought 261 battles losing 163,035 and killing 367,712 for a kill ratio of 2.26. The economy was never really a problem and at end was supporting 19 legions and several large fleets. Most experienced legion, III Augusta with 19 battles

I'm now two months plus into my first Dei campaign which has run 272BC-146BC, 126 game years @4TPY= 504GT. The legions have fought 139 battles losing 68,049 while killing 242,756 for a 3.57 kill ratio. The economy is currently supporting ten legions and no fleets. Rome controls 80+ territories but has not satisfied victory conditions which require the total possession of certain provinces. We totally control some of those and partially others in conjunction with our long term allies Athens and Massilia. I guess we're going to have to go to war against one or both if I care about getting the victory placard which I probably don't. I imagine we'll just kill everybody except them and call it a day. I've found the economy in Dei to be a holy terror. After having played TW games and mods for many years, I was struggling to support five legions. For one thing, R2 has a corruption figure that saps income. Dei changed the name to Empire Maintenance and then seemingly dosed it with steroids. At one pt, EM was 125% which means it consumed 100% of what you are taxing and then 25% of the rest of your income from trade, slaves, etc. I finally concluded, "Hey, this is nuts; I'm doing something very wrong here." and posted a thread inquiry on the Dei site. Got some very good advice and implemented it. Some relief came immediately and ten game years later the economy is humming, easily supporting ten legions and could probably go a couple more if I needed them. But it's something you have to watch closely all the time because income, food, public order and building development are all deeply entwined. I find myself much more immersed in the Dei economy than in RS2 which I don't really mind, but depending on your gameplay style it could be a deal breaker.

The kill ratio change from 7.98 (RS2) to 2.26 (R2) to 3.57 (Dei) is noteworthy. The first thing I attribute it to is that many of my RS2 battles were fought defending bridgeheads along the empire's limes and bridge battles as we all know heavily favor the defender so outcomes of 200 lost to 3,000 killed are not abnormal. I have yet to fight my first bridge battle in R2 or Dei; they won't let you sit a legion on a river crossing. You can sit behind the crossing and I've had that result in a crossing defense once; all other times the battle site is moved far enough back so the enemy crosses before combat is joined at least that's been my experience. I'm also a big fan of hauling onagers everywhere. In R2 they're not as effective vs. infantry as in RS2, but in Dei they pretty much are. In two open field battles last night, the arty accounted for 25-30% of the enemy casualties which is about what I'd get in RS2 except for bridge defenses where it can be 50% because of the enemy creating a wonderful target by crowding the approach.

Civil wars are my least favorite aspect in these games. The monstrous RS2 one came as a ghastly surprise, but ultimately became an enjoyable challenge. Generally tho, historically accurate as they are, I think they're more tedious than anything else. The R2 civil war was not anywhere near as drastic as RS2's; in fact it was over pretty swiftly. I have yet to have one in the Dei campaign. I'm playing a reduced civil war Dei mod that doesn't eliminate them, but makes them less frequent and severe. It was written to counteract a problem where repeated civil wars were occurring with frequency. What I've found is that so long as I keep my faction leader's influence between 30-40, everybody gets along.

Campaign length in real playing time is also interesting. The RS2 campaign took a very enjoyable year to complete. R2 took four months. Dei is probably going to be about that. Why are they shorter given that the map comprises about the same amount of European real estate? Remember in pre-release when the CA folks were saying that battles were going to be fewer, but more significant? Well, that's what they achieved. As I noted in a post above, you can't blitz because the legion gets stuck in the settlement until PO recovers. So in a lot of GT nothing is happening. You build a few things, check food, $$, PO and hit end GT; time elapsed-under a minute. Plus in the ten game years or so when I was nursing the economy off life support, I turtled, ceased expansion and fought no battles; that's forty GT that probably took an hour or no more than two to play. So even tho the three campaigns consumed a comparable amount of GT, those battle packed RS2 GT can take a while to play thru. At least that's what seems to account for it to me.

This post is in no way meant as an endorsement as to why you should prefer R2/Dei over RS2. I'm firmly in agreement with the wise posters herein who have written that gamers should play that which they prefer. Along that vein, I thought using some tangible numbers might draw useful comparisons of certain aspects of each.

Edit: Completed my Dei campaign cited above last night. Map completely Roman red. Never got the victory placard because one of the conditions is to have fleets totaling 60 ships. Never needed them. Occasionally I built fleets as needed, but they're too expensive to just keep hanging around and I can't be bothered doing it just to satisfy the requirement. Campaign ran five months in duration, 272BC-100BC or 172 game years @4TPY=688GT. Legions fought 277 battles losing 121,998 and killing 504,803 for a 4.13 kill ratio. Finished with a treasury of more than seven million denarii with income of ~70K/yr. The best part, wait for it............no, as in never had one, civil wars. So keeping faction leader influence between 30-40 worked throughout.
The Dei campaign took a month or so longer than vanilla. I think because it's more complex and somewhat more difficult.
In RS2, I got to flesh out the army with the full complement of 28 legions. Well, at one time or another because VI & XXth become pretty useless as the war moves east as it inevitably does and I decommissioned them both thereafter, but found good use for the other 26. Not so in Dei; never commissioned more than 15 and actually I didn't need XIIth Fulminata when I recruited them as a contingency and they never fought in a battle. So that's something I definitely prefer in RS2; you get to see all the legions and you need them. Why not in Dei? In vanilla I got to 19 legions using the same map as Dei. Both campaigns were on M/M. Looking at the RS2 vs Dei map, there are a lot more entities to conquer on the RS2 map which probably accounts for the vastly increased number of battles fought 1,198 (RS2) vs 277 (Dei)=4.32 times as many. All those battles, even given that a lot were in the civil war, demand a lot of troops.

**dvk901** · May 05, 2015, 08:14 AM

Very nice comparisons. Thank you.

**ferike_2007** · May 07, 2015, 08:44 AM

Let's make another comparation:

- RTW was released in 2004, the expansion packs were released in 2005(BI) and 2006(Alex) - roughly 10 years ago, and was patched several times (four times iirc, including 1.6 for BI). Still a playable game (especially for addicted players like me), quite unfinished however (CA never fixed a lot of problems players and fans discovered over 10 more years of playing-modding(!). Dozens of mods were released by fans, some of these are really masterpieces and became well-known and renowned among the gamers community and still are played by a lot of people.

- R2TW was released in sept 2013, roughly 2 years ago, already has a lot of expansion packs and patches in order be a more or less playable game. Also a lot of mods were already released and played by a significant number of players; a few of these mods are already famed and I'm sure there will be much more. More mods, more patches, more expansion packs.

So, I'm pretty curious how many fans, mods and Rome2-addicted players will be here in 8 or 10 years from now, while an enthusiast community still waiting for the upcoming RS3!

Time... ONLY the TIME will give for us the proper answer all of us looking for in this Rome2 vs RSII/III polemic.

**Paladin247** · May 07, 2015, 10:12 PM

Ferike, you are certainly correct; time will tell. For myself, I've probably played RTW and its mods so much because I'm more interested in the Romans than any other of the TW excursions. After I played vanilla RTW to conclusion with each of the three factions, I went in search of mods and played campaigns in RTR, EB and SPQR and then of course finally the gold standard, RS2.
With MTW/Kingdoms, I played three MTW campaigns then one Kingdoms then one in Broken Crescent and back to Rome.
With NTW, I played two campaigns and one in the Zulu War mod and back to Rome.
With STW, one and done.
I just prefer the Roman era. I've read a lot about the legions, both history and fiction and I immensely enjoy watching them do their thing. if you look at the hosted mods for these, it's interesting.
RTW=34
MTW/King=60 which surprised me.
NTW=11
STW=7
Certainly not scientific at all, but it would appear that the sandals and swords games are hugely more popular which may contribute to their endurance.

**est Dudus** · May 08, 2015, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by ferike_2007

Let's make another comparation:

- RTW was released in 2004, the expansion packs were released in 2005(BI) and 2006(Alex) - roughly 10 years ago, and was patched several times (four times iirc, including 1.6 for BI). Still a playable game (especially for addicted players like me), quite unfinished however (CA never fixed a lot of problems players and fans discovered over 10 more years of playing-modding(!). Dozens of mods were released by fans, some of these are really masterpieces and became well-known and renowned among the gamers community and still are played by a lot of people.

- R2TW was released in sept 2013, roughly 2 years ago, already has a lot of expansion packs and patches in order be a more or less playable game. Also a lot of mods were already released and played by a significant number of players; a few of these mods are already famed and I'm sure there will be much more. More mods, more patches, more expansion packs.

So, I'm pretty curious how many fans, mods and Rome2-addicted players will be here in 8 or 10 years from now, while an enthusiast community still waiting for the upcoming RS3!

Time... ONLY the TIME will give for us the proper answer all of us looking for in this Rome2 vs RSII/III polemic.

0.0.......The core game is just crap. Plus, the ability to mod is very limited. I gave Rome 2 every chance...I really wanted to enjoy it, really. It is just a bad game and CA is really done with it now. I have played ALLLLLL the mods, helps a little but really it is no where near enough. People will still play it because of the graphics. But if you ask me, I think this mod looks more realistic. I feel I have a real army marching into battle instead of a robotic mess that is Rome 2. Just my op.

Plus, Rome 2---even with the DEI mod is simply the easiest Total war game you can play. That is also a reason people will play it. They designed it for the ' Weekend player".

**Quintillius** · May 18, 2015, 06:50 AM

Roma Surrectum II is much better than Rome II. It's a fact. I firstly thought naval blockades would be fun to see in a battle, until I realised that one could defeat a wole city garrison with only ship crew... Then some random fleet with no soldiers pops-up, it blockades my port and next turn... city lost. Awful, guys. Really disgusting and disappointing. This one, together with some other nasty things like 'political features' made me quit campaign.

However I shouldn't forget to mention the gameplay of Rome II is actually entertaining... when applying some mods. Astonishing graphics, world map and more. But from the release of Empire Total War... all immersion is killed in favour of simplicity and arcadic style games. I was actually surprised to see that Atilla Total War brings back some vital features. Like building cards and family tree. I begged for a long time to see the building cards back =). I also like how you can't look through soldier bodies any more. Just like in Medieval II. It feels better and adds up realism to see physics working. And.... the traditional main menu movie is back. With these shadows marching!

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Love to see the new building settlements! Only thing I want is to see are new walls and gates. I was a bit bored to siege these default settlements over and over again. A retexture would simple do an amazing job. But as we know you, and your team, you'll surprise us.

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Any release date confirmed for RSIII? I'd like to know what's the deadline, because I planned to add new portraits and UI textures for other cultures.

**ferike_2007** · May 18, 2015, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by Quintillius

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Any release date confirmed for RSIII? I'd like to know what's the deadline, because I planned to add new portraits and UI textures for other cultures.

I'm feeling like a child at Christmas: gifts, gifts and gifts again.

Great news Q.