Rome2 vs RSII - Where are we?

[Alavaria]

I recently had been checking out the new EBII mod and have similar feelings about the aesthetics. I think it's more clashing color schemes or something.

Yeah. Though as I understand it, the sort of uniformity imposed by the RTW engine isn't representative of what you'd see. The hoplites, rich cataphracts etc were pretty brightly and differently equipped. Didn't have a uniform, but more like those medieval nobility with their different colors and heraldry etc

(eg: cuirass decorations, emblems on shields for hoplites).

But the gameplay is worse. Battles don't feel the same.

[century x]

the battles feel slow but it is still a great mod...

[_Tartaros_]

second that, the EB-battle mechanics feel very unique and i was positive surprised. alot of units rout, but then band together and reemerge to the field of battle, same with my own units. i fought hard battle and wasn´t sure if i´m able to win this, sometime even lost an already won battle, because my units are to spread out and are surrounded by reemerged "routing" troops.

[tungri_centurio]

i think rome2 with DeI installed is beter than EBII at the moment.i enjoy it more than the slow motion battles from MTW2
it's even closing the gap with roma surrectum a little bit.

[Lt.Speirs]

Before I went back to RSII a week ago, i've been playing all kinds of games. Skyrim, Fallout, Rome2, Brothers in Arms, and even old school games like Worms Armageddon, Red Alert 2, Rollercoaster Tycoon 2 :') Anyway, I am GLAD, to be back at RS2. Now with 2.6, everything seems to be working perfectly. Before this patch there was always a tiny little something that could be a called a bug or flaw. But not this time. I am enjoying every second of my current Roman campaign! Anyway, rome 2 had a great diplomacy mechanic, and thats about it.... probably never going back to that game... Roma Surrectum.... you're awesome!

[century x]

Before I went back to RSII a week ago, i've been playing all kinds of games. Skyrim, Fallout, Rome2, Brothers in Arms, and even old school games like Worms Armageddon, Red Alert 2, Rollercoaster Tycoon 2 :') Anyway, I am GLAD, to be back at RS2. Now with 2.6, everything seems to be working perfectly. Before this patch there was always a tiny little something that could be a called a bug or flaw. But not this time. I am enjoying every second of my current Roman campaign! Anyway, rome 2 had a great diplomacy mechanic, and thats about it.... probably never going back to that game... Roma Surrectum.... you're awesome!

Roma Surrectum 2.6 = Official Sequel to Rome Total War

[Ovidius Empiricus]

Roma Surrectum 2.6 = Official Sequel to Rome Total War

That doesn't seem quite right. For me, nowadays, RSII just is Rome Total War. Vanilla RTW and BI are both like beta versions of a real game, which I paid for so many years ago, but now they don't register to me as valid options. It wouldn't even occur to me that I might play them, unless somebody suggested it. And if they did, I'm sure I would refuse.


EDIT: The one thing I kinda sorta miss every now and then is the "religion" mechanic from BI. It's not that I'm a fan of religions or even how they characterized them in the game; but I liked that there were ways for a province to be influenced by its neighbors, who/what was in the area, its relationship to the official faction religion and so forth. It was another interesting set of variables to think about. I guess RSII probably won't ever do anything with that, and I have no idea how easy it would be to make a submod that deals with it in some way (not necessarily religions but maybe other political/philosophical differences or even representing something else entirely).

[ur-Lord Tedric]

That's a thought - the BI Religion mechanic could possibly be used as a way to have superior generals effectively create a sort of 'popularity unrest' that could be a whole new way to simulate the civil war-like rebellions...........

[Ovidius Empiricus]

That's a thought - the BI Religion mechanic could possibly be used as a way to have superior generals effectively create a sort of 'popularity unrest' that could be a whole new way to simulate the civil war-like rebellions...........

Indeed, that would be an interesting way to use it.

The game apparently only allows a total of three fully-functional religions, just so you know, so that does complicate things somewhat with so many different factions. You could I guess group factions together culturally -- Roman/Greeks, Barbs/Germans, Easterners/Nomads/Carthage. No idea how that might affect the balance in gameplay, and indeed making sure it's not ridiculously unfair for anybody would require some careful tweaking I think. Or another possibility: is it not too much of a stretch to suggest that something like populares and optimates are in all cultures at all times? Maybe all factions have those as their two possible courses, and how they develop or who is in charge could lead to more (or less) stability with neighboring factions (or settlements within a faction).

But I'm not sure I'd want to involve all characters with traits/ancillaries; in BI it was a little too heavy-handed with everybody getting everything. Maybe only a select few like faction leaders/heirs can influence it, and maybe also one or a small number of other faction-specific ancillaries can represent an office or position at any given time, so you'd have a way to move those people around where they're needed. ***

Another whacky thought: perhaps all playable factions get the same "religion" (i.e., something that makes locals happy: social mobility, political/moral/intellectual progress, technological development, whatever), while the two others essentially represent whatever is suppressing that. You'd have the option to build things that are "against" your "religion" of course, if you can handle the happiness penalties that will build up in the general region over time, but probably not everywhere and not without building other things that help to maintain a workable balance. Which is what we already have in a sense, just a more dynamic version of it than the standard "-X%" happiness/law penalties of some buildings: taxes, advanced mining, buildings from enemy/foreign cultures, etc. That way, you could make sure they (or you the player) really suffer for spamming certain buildings everywhere....

***EDIT: To go with your idea, the successful general could basically stand out from everybody else by getting a certain trait/ancillary, which can only exist one at a time for a given faction (or two/three/whatever, the point is just not being randomly available to everyone no matter what). You wouldn't need to worry about a whole bunch of different contenders potentially causing a rebellion all over the place (as with loyalty), because once somebody has it nobody else can. At least not until they're dead or you move them to a person/place which can handle it.

Since "religion" can pretty quickly get out of control with the 5% increments, maybe the trait/ancillary could also have a small decrease-unrest effect to calibrate it a little bit -- and to represent the fact that, well, someone must like the person if indeed they're popular, or something along those lines. But you can imagine a Roman general conquering the Levant, let's say, and they start governing Antioch. No big deal, you might say: they have this decrease-unrest trait to make sure they can take care of Antioch proper. But now all of the neighboring regions are suffering as well from the "religion" spreading out to them, and his traits as a governor there will not help them at all. He might maintain his iron grip on the city just from that, but he (and you as faction leader) lose control of the general region -- unless you do something else to counteract it and keep the religion from spreading/growing obviously.

[Risasi]

For me, nowadays, RSII just is Rome Total War...

That pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter.

I'm also glad to hear there have been some improvements to R2 via DeI. But I'm not holding my breath. It seems like there are hard coded flaws in the system.
If I were to give an analogy of Vanilla R2 vs RTW + mods, it's kind of like R2 is that hot chick you know, but she is as dense as a bag of rocks, and always wants you to buy her expensive stuff (like PC hardware to run her). She flakes out on you sometimes too, and does something completely embarrassing for you and her...and she doesn't even know it. The hot chick is just eye candy and seems kind of fake once you get to know her and about as deep as a kiddie pool.
Now RSII. She is something special, like the girl next door. She looks alright most of the time, but if you let her put on her makeup she can look pretty smoking...she also thinks your jokes are funny and knows how to cook your favorite foods. You get to know her and she's pretty cool. She is kind of quirky and might CTD if you push the wrong buttons, but she'll rub your head when you're sick and give you what you want. Because she cares! Now that's a keeper.


Also, I didn't mean to drift this thread when I mentioned EBII. My focus there was aesthetics and how dvk and tone achieved something special with this mod. Even though the graphics are "inferior" due to lower poly count and lack of spit and shine via technology improvements, the aesthetics trump this. I know that's personal opinion, and hard to explain sometimes. But I've fired up RSII with friends and they are shocked to find out it's an old game which will run on almost anything now. And that it's a mod to boot.
So I guess what I'm saying is that EBII has problems and it will be a few years before it's polished enough to compare. I don't think it's yet fair to compare the two game play wise. Potential is there though.

From what I've observed it appears that R2 has made some improvements in diplomacy. That really is my only complaint with RSII, and honestly that's caused by the hard coded limits in RTW. So when I play RSII, in a sense it's just strategy and tactics which have been distilled down into the purest form. It's weakness is it's strength. And I think that's why RTW and it's mods still appeal to so many now, even after a decade.

When I get a hankering for more political B.S. and a slower game, I fire up Stainless Steel on M2TW.

[dvk901]

That pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter.

I'm also glad to hear there have been some improvements to R2 via DeI. But I'm not holding my breath. It seems like there are hard coded flaws in the system.
If I were to give an analogy of Vanilla R2 vs RTW + mods, it's kind of like R2 is that hot chick you know, but she is as dense as a bag of rocks, and always wants you to buy her expensive stuff (like PC hardware to run her). She flakes out on you sometimes too, and does something completely embarrassing for you and her...and she doesn't even know it. The hot chick is just eye candy and seems kind of fake once you get to know her and about as deep as a kiddie pool.
Now RSII. She is something special, like the girl next door. She looks alright most of the time, but if you let her put on her makeup she can look pretty smoking...she also thinks your jokes are funny and knows how to cook your favorite foods. You get to know her and she's pretty cool. She is kind of quirky and might CTD if you push the wrong buttons, but she'll rub your head when you're sick and give you what you want. Because she cares! Now that's a keeper.


Also, I didn't mean to drift this thread when I mentioned EBII. My focus there was aesthetics and how dvk and tone achieved something special with this mod. Even though the graphics are "inferior" due to lower poly count and lack of spit and shine via technology improvements, the aesthetics trump this. I know that's personal opinion, and hard to explain sometimes. But I've fired up RSII with friends and they are shocked to find out it's an old game which will run on almost anything now. And that it's a mod to boot.
So I guess what I'm saying is that EBII has problems and it will be a few years before it's polished enough to compare. I don't think it's yet fair to compare the two game play wise. Potential is there though.

From what I've observed it appears that R2 has made some improvements in diplomacy. That really is my only complaint with RSII, and honestly that's caused by the hard coded limits in RTW. So when I play RSII, in a sense it's just strategy and tactics which have been distilled down into the purest form. It's weakness is it's strength. And I think that's why RTW and it's mods still appeal to so many now, even after a decade.

When I get a hankering for more political B.S. and a slower game, I fire up Stainless Steel on M2TW.

THAT is probably the nicest thing I've ever heard said about RS2 in a 'poetic' sense. When I read it, it really expressed how I have always felt about it, and why I still stick with it...even though the glamor days may be gone.

[tone]

Glad to hear that there are still some out there enjoying the mod. Those glory days of RS2 development and hundreds of people on the RTW subforum are over, but it's encouraging after all the work we put in (and still are in dvk's case) to know that it's giving people some pleasure.
Love the girlfriend analogy!

[here4thehax]

The girlfriend analogy was on point
and like someone above said, RTW vanilla is not even an option anymore.
RSII is RTW. In fact, I had a craving for the whole religion system and the days of the split Roman Empires so I kickstarted BI and
my nostalgia immediately disappeared. I can't not have the RSII features in my RTW anymore. It's a fundamental, a must. Not having it is like playing R2 on release

[General Maximus]

For me, RS2 isn't RTW, because then for me EB is also RTW, and Invasio Barbarorum is also RTW BI.

Though RS2 is THOUSANDS of miles ahead of Rome II. That game is a cash cow intended for 12-year olds. Campaign map is boring as hell, diplomacy has lots of missing features (like no region exchange), awkward engine restrictions like no change of capitals, UGLY campaign map with square and boxy coastlines, broken naval battles, mostly non-working AI and shamelessly bad sieges.

Plus extremely bland and lazy music that just makes me quit the game and play RS2/EB, generally boring gameplay and generally bland feel of the game doesn't help. Engine restrictions created a lot of problems for this game.

Battles of Rome II are playable with mods, but suffer heavily from laziness on CA's part (no loose formation for everyone, semi-broken missile system, etc.) and the usage of a engine named Warscape (it was meant for gunpowder warfare, not melee) just makes the battles sometimes hilariously unplayable. Blobs don't help either.

Only thing Rome II has is graphics, which doesn't actually matter for me. I still play Shogun 1 so frequently, does CA think I'd be lured by fancy looks so easily?

Rome II, overall, cannot compete with RS2 or EB. These mods are far better than it.

[Hanti]

i think rome2 with DeI installed is beter than EBII at the moment.i enjoy it more than the slow motion battles from MTW2
it's even closing the gap with roma surrectum a little bit.

For me, RS2 isn't RTW, because then for me EB is also RTW, and Invasio Barbarorum is also RTW BI.

Though RS2 is THOUSANDS of miles ahead of Rome II. That game is a cash cow intended for 12-year olds. Campaign map is boring as hell, diplomacy has lots of missing features (like no region exchange), awkward engine restrictions like no change of capitals, UGLY campaign map with square and boxy coastlines, broken naval battles, mostly non-working AI and shamelessly bad sieges.
(...)

Rome II, overall, cannot compete with RS2 or EB. These mods are far better than it.

Essentially R2 is like vanilla RTW. It should not be compared to RS2. But R2 with DeI is like RTW with RS.
DeI is mod based upon RS2 features (Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery as they say).
I like best Augustus campaign with DeI mod and Marian legions submod. I like the map and the pace of the battles mod introduced.
Of course some functions are missing (family tree, tons of buildings in cities). But R2+DeI is playable at least.

I would not play R2 without mods anyway as I don't play RTW without mods. Yet if I must play vanilla game, I would choose R2.
But mods still rule and RS is one of the best.

[century x]

Glad to hear that there are still some out there enjoying the mod. Those glory days of RS2 development and hundreds of people on the RTW subforum are over, but it's encouraging after all the work we put in (and still are in dvk's case) to know that it's giving people some pleasure.
Love the girlfriend analogy!

Some of the vets are still around. I being one of them ... I see others from time to time...

[Mihajlo]

There is no other game that I played (and still playing) more then RTW/MTW2. If there was no mods, I wouldnt played it more then 20-30 hours and that is it. After 2-3 campaigns it gets soooo repetitive so no point to play anymore. Now, with gems like RS or EB or IB, heh now we are talking! Since in last 3 years I dont have much time for gaming, the only games Im playing (well just finished witcher2) is mods for rome and medieval.

This said, CA/Sega thinking they can just trow fancy buggy graphic to me and represent as award wining strategy. Graphic means so little in strategy games, what means is solid AI, excellent battles and compact features for that time period (diplomacy, family tree, sieges). <<---- kinda all the stuff missing/broken in R2!

There is a reason why empire/napoleon games have only players who are really interested in that time period and not having other good games in this format they keep coming to those (a part from AoE3 I would say).

Anyhow, keep doing the good work and thank you for 1000+ hours of fun with this rare game in gaming world.

Salute!

[20ninescene]

Maybe you should try Divide et Impera (a mod), which makes battles slower, more tactical and more realistic.

[Mihajlo]

Maybe I tried it and I finished with R2. Game has 0 quality for my strategy game standards and playability. Graphics means so little comparing with all that is wrong starting with warscape and go over every single one element of combat, strategy, AI, etc.

[Risasi]

Maybe I tried it and I finished with R2. Game has 0 quality for my strategy game standards and playability. Graphics means so little comparing with all that is wrong starting with warscape and go over every single one element of combat, strategy, AI, etc.

I do think warscape is a good fit for the gunpowder era. Obviously they chose it because of Empire.
But yeah, trying to shoehorn shield walls and lancers into it just doesn't work quite right. Long live the RTW/M2TW engine!