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Thread: The Second Triumvirate

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    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default The Second Triumvirate

    Hi there

    Since the EE is coming out, its sparked my interest during this particular period of Roman history.

    I have a few requests and questions.

    Firstly, who was the good person among all of the four Roman leaders?

    Secondly, is there any good sources on Marc Antony/Cleopatra/Lepdius and Octavious? I'd like to know books, online sources, anything worth of good solid info

    Thirdly, the EE seems to represent the factions inaccurately, I don't believe each Roman faction in the game would have all different colours. Most likely they would have been the same units as Ceaser's troops were!

    Fourthly, can anyone find me a map of Rome during the 2nd Triumvirate? A city plan perhaps? I'd most appreciate that.

    Fifthly, before I start doing much, I want to know the backgrounds,since I am writing a novel, which view point would it be most likely to go too? Octavian, Marc Antony, or would I have to study Ceaser first?

    Sixthly, was Cleopatra the most powerful queen and did she have an good military?

    Seventh, what type of Society did Rome have at this time?

    Eighth, this was based on the Roman Republic isn't it? Did this event give birth to the Roman Empire? Any good books on Republic Rome? Life/society/Marius reforms?





















































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    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: The Second Triumvirate

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall of France View Post
    Firstly, who was the good person among all of the four Roman leaders?
    I'm not sure what you really mean by "good", do you mean morally?
    And why four persons? There were only three in the triumvirate? But you probably mean Sextus Pompey.
    Well I think we can all agree that militarily Antony was the most gifted, politically Octavian seems to be the guy, Sextus was a minor naval power that operated from his base in Sicily and even freed the slaves for service in his fleet making it possible for him to build a large fleet and menace Italy and Africa. As for Lepidus well... I guess he provided legitimacy with his ties to powerful families being a relatively powerful man himself I guess, he acted similarly for Julius Caesar.

    Morality is a hard one, but in my opinion Octavian was the least moral and the only reason he won was due to a huge propaganda campaign against him and the bribing of key officers. Truth is Actium was only nominally a victory fro Octavian but except for a portion of Antony's fleet much of it escaped. Antony had already resolved to burn his transport ships and continue the war on land. Whilst Antony was relocating his base in Athens, away from Actium, his own army deserted in massive droves and so Antony and Cleopatra were forced to flee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall of France View Post
    Secondly, is there any good sources on Marc Antony/Cleopatra/Lepdius and Octavious? I'd like to know books, online sources, anything worth of good solid info
    Not too sure abut Lepidus, he's like the third wheel no on cares about. You'll find tonnes on Octavian/Augustus I myself have not read any of these books.
    You'll find relatively fewer on Cleopatra and Antony. Maybe try Adrian Goldsworthy Antony and Cleopatra? I myself have not read it though. I have read these:
    http://www.amazon.ca/Mark-Antony-Lif...ds=Mark+antony

    http://www.amazon.ca/Mark-Antony-Ele...ds=Mark+antony

    I guess you might give my narrative of Mark Antony's early career a try, it has little to do with the events discussed now but provides some back ground, I actually used the above sources if that makes it somehow better
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...rcus-Anthonius


    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall of France View Post
    Thirdly, the EE seems to represent the factions inaccurately, I don't believe each Roman faction in the game would have all different colours. Most likely they would have been the same units as Ceaser's troops were!
    I agree with you, it was in fact one state ruled by one set off laws. Although the original legions of Caesar were split between Octavian and Antony so there were actually two Legio X at the time. Antony supplemented these half veteran legions with raw recruits from Greece and Syria as well as the availability of superior cavalry from Anatolia, Syria, Armenia and Parthia and many client kingdoms that had their own armies. Aside from this Antony was able to recruit mercenaries from among the Dacians and Thracians and even had access to recruitment from Gaul and Spain and even Africa. Antony had like 3 legions stationed in Gaul as part of the defense of the region from the Germans and to suppress rebels when the war between him and Octavian began. Africa was never really a secure province as it was full of Antony's supporters and whoever else happened to be in charge there at the time and the result was constant mob violence and bribery, so Antony was able to extract troops and even have some power in Africa even though it was first ruled by Lepidus and then Octavian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall of France View Post
    Fourthly, can anyone find me a map of Rome during the 2nd Triumvirate? A city plan perhaps? I'd most appreciate that.
    No not really, at least I can't think of any. Although the idea that Octavian controlled Italy is false, the cities in Italy were actually divided between all 3 Roman Triumvirs and so each one extracted taxes from each of their cities there. But the problem being that since Octavian controlled the province just above Italy he was much closer and could spread his influence into those cities. The other issue was that Octavian was the only Triumvir in Rome. In fact Octavian tried to gobble up all of the cities in Italy when the Parthians invaded Syria. Rather than ignoring this Antony sent his own legate in Italy, Publius Ventidius Bassus, and himself went westwards to reclaim Italy and he was actually successful. But even then Antony was needed in the Eastern provinces and so Octavian could constantly attack cities loyal to the other two members and punish them for not being loyal to himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall of France View Post
    Fifthly, before I start doing much, I want to know the backgrounds,since I am writing a novel, which view point would it be most likely to go too? Octavian, Marc Antony, or would I have to study Ceaser first?
    If you want to know backgrounds then you need to study Julius Caesar's Civil War at least to understand what happened. But this doesn't really cover Antony or Octavian much then.
    I tried to write up a narrative of Antony's career over here http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...rcus-Anthonius and so it does provide some background (as far as free resources go anyway) to what Antony was doing during the original Triumvirate of Crassus, Caesar and Pompey. It was intended as a massive project detailing the entire career of Antony but I had to take a break since the subject starts getting bigger and bigger at the point where I stopped.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall of France View Post
    Sixthly, was Cleopatra the most powerful queen and did she have an good military?
    Cleopatra was powerful in the sense that she was likely the richest monarch in the world at that time. Moreover she had secured the protection of the original Triumvirs and during the Civil War Caesar himself and then much later Marcus Antonius. Her military was fairly weak in comparison and relied mostly on mercenaries from all over (Gauls, Greeks, Pontics, Syrians and even Romans). She did however have a large fleet with some very large ships which was a project started by Antony and Cleopatra, the donations of Alexandria where in Antony gave large swathes of the eastern provinces to his own children were started as a defense mechanism in the east in the form of various larger client states for Rome. The main idea being to give the required resources to the Egyptians so that they could fund the creation of a massive navy to patrol the Mediterranean (and more likely to invade Italy if that should be required again). But also for a long lasting Roman presence in the east funded by Egypt if need be (so better infrastructure and an attempt to integrate eastern society with that of the Romans which involved the settling of many Romans eastwards). Egypt funded most of Antony's... well everything from armies, to fleets, temples and cities. Although keep in mind that by this point Mark Antony was himself an exceedingly rich man as he profited from Caesar's patronage, testament and even certain deals with other rich Romans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall of France View Post
    Seventh, what type of Society did Rome have at this time?
    Not sure what this means. I'll just say that the majority of plebs were fed up with the Patricians that appeared to be in control of the Republic, took more slaves and then left the plebs without work. When Caesar showed up and started showering them in money most of them stopped caring about the republic, to the point that when the Second Triumvirate showed up the majority of people stopped caring about the fact that a dictatorship had just been made legally, I mean if it stops the constant wars why not.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: The Second Triumvirate

    Second Triumvirate was technically just a mini-civil war fought between Roman professional military class to determine who was the sole master of military force.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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    Default Re: The Second Triumvirate

    Ironically (and I realize I am using the word incorrectly just like 90% of the population), the guy who had the smallest regions for settlement, less money to pay them and worst military skill ended up winning. As Bill O'reilly would say "you can't explain that".

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

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    Default Re: The Second Triumvirate

    Augustus had the virtue of his great-uncle but not his vice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: The Second Triumvirate

    The vice of clean fights

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

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    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: The Second Triumvirate

    Thanks for the useful Lord Oda Nobunaga. I bow in respect.

    Also, do you mind moving your posts to this thread here? Its got more replies but I'll want to add your posts as well.
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=#post14108065
    Question, is Marc Antony's troops colour accurate?





















































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    Default Re: The Second Triumvirate

    There's a great novel by Alfred DugganThree's Company (just googled it and there's a crappy erotic novel with the same name lol). It takes the POV of Lepidus, the "slight unmeritable man" who turns out to be a traditionalist of the establishment , just trying to stay afloat in this world of hotheaded murderers (Mark Antony) and creepy power geeks (Octavian).

    Duggan is a hell of an author, with several novels based on injecting cynical realism into historical romances. His Conscience of the King is easily the best novel of Dark Ages Britain I've read (and I've read plenty, from T H White to Nicola Griffith).

    Good luck writing about the breakdown of the second triumvirate, its well ploughed ground.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

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    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: The Second Triumvirate

    That actually sounds so cool that I might actually consider reading it.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

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    G-Megas-Doux's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: The Second Triumvirate

    When we look at the second Triumvirate there are no good guys only traitors who were less successful than each other. Lepidus betrayed the Senate who had sent him to arrest Anthony and Octavian. Anthony and Octavian were operating under illegal commissions. When it comes down to it Lepidus was so insignificant Octavian even let him live after removing Africa from his control. Sextus Pompey was a pirate who had his authority from the side who lost the war against Caeser who was actually in the first Triumvirate with Pompey Magnus who was also not the good guy. It is arguable that there were not any good guys in Roman Politics ever. I am including the Graccus family who would have had to pay bad just to really be a danger to the establishment in the first place.



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    Default Re: The Second Triumvirate

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Megas-Doux View Post
    When we look at the second Triumvirate there are no good guys only traitors who were less successful than each other. Lepidus betrayed the Senate who had sent him to arrest Anthony and Octavian. Anthony and Octavian were operating under illegal commissions. When it comes down to it Lepidus was so insignificant Octavian even let him live after removing Africa from his control. Sextus Pompey was a pirate who had his authority from the side who lost the war against Caeser who was actually in the first Triumvirate with Pompey Magnus who was also not the good guy. It is arguable that there were not any good guys in Roman Politics ever. I am including the Graccus family who would have had to pay bad just to really be a danger to the establishment in the first place.
    To be fair at this point it was clear that Senate already could not control professional military class, especially when they were not paying the salary. Although of course Senate still wanted to try to control the professional military using any possible mean, the chance of success was slim. Overall, it only shows that Senate's policy to control professional military after the death of Sulla was complete failure, although it does bring the question why a similar civil war did not happen after the death of Sulla; it perhaps had to do with Sulla's long reign (hence fairly stable) and Pompey's ability (hence no able competitor until Caesar).
    Last edited by hellheaven1987; September 21, 2014 at 06:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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    Default Re: The Second Triumvirate

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    To be fair at this point it was clear that Senate already could not control professional military class, especially when they were not paying the salary. Although of course Senate still wanted to try to control the professional military using any possible mean, the chance of success was slim. Overall, it only shows that Senate's policy to control professional military after the death of Sulla was complete failure, although it does bring the question why a similar civil war did not happen after the death of Sulla; it perhaps had to do with Sulla's long reign (hence fairly stable) and Pompey's ability (hence no able competitor until Caesar).
    Sulla only ruled two years by himself after his own decade and half long civil war with Marius. That in fact was the prototype of the later problems. Much of the Aristocracy had been lessened by this war. The next generation had yet to grow up and in fact there was much corruption in that whole century. Also let us not forget the Italian wars for citizenship and then the Spartacus uprising.



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    Default Re: The Second Triumvirate

    Methinks Sulla and Marius get too much credit. After all, others played major roles in opposing Sulla. Men such as Gnaeus Papirius Carbo, Lucius Cornelius Cinna, Gaius Norbanus Balbus, Gaius Marius the Younger also played a major role on the side of the Populares.

    Sulla also had Quintus Metellus Pius, Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus, Lucius Lucullus as well as Crassus and Dolabella. Arguably though it was Sulla and Metellus Pius that played the largest role for the Optimates and the other guys were sort of there.

    I would argue, and especially judging by these names, that this war in question was the reaction of these Patrician Optimate factions which were startled by the growing power of the Populares in the Senate, the personal power of those involved and indirectly that of the Plebs.

    If we look to the side of Marius these are actually all some big names which seem to eclipse the ones on Sulla's side. And so quite laughably we ought to say that the Optimates sold their souls to the dictatorship of Sulla and subsequently his Pleb successor Gnaeus Pompey. Even though Lucullus, Pompey and Crassus all benefited from this greatly it seems like Pompey was forced to change his politics from that of Sulla because those very Patricians realized that they invited a tiger into their dens to chase out some wolves (although judging by the Gracchi, Pompey, Caesar, Antony, Octavian and what Marius himself started these might have been some ing huge wolves).

    I mean looking at the power that Marius had and many of his allies (admittedly sometimes unwilling) it seems like the Populares were perceived by many to be the legitimate power (this was also grounded in the fact that the Populares might have had the most power, so almost as if the Populares became those very Patricians which opposed them).

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

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    Default Re: The Second Triumvirate

    I don't give extra credit to Sulla and Marius, I do however recognise that they were the first major civil wars between Romans on a grand scale with the only preceding events of note being the State of Emergency called that resulted in Gracchus being killed and the fight of the orders when the Plebs asked for rights from the Patricians which resulted in the Twelve Tables and the institution of the Plebeian Consul.



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    Default Re: The Second Triumvirate

    Well I'm not implying that you specifically are saying that.

    I'm just pointing something out about the history or the historiography/perception in many cases.
    What Sulla and Marius were was the military muscle behind many of these. Difference being that Sulla had way more power than Marius might ever hope for and that's probably because the Optimates/conservative Patricians were so hard pressed (like over half a decade!) they took the risk to give power to Sulla. Marius on the other hand was one of many names and even though he was the military power in the group he had been somewhat inactive militarily for a really long time. Really I have to wonder how many of the Populares weren't just Patricians that realized that in order to keep power they had to go with the times or even Patricians that wanted more power. I mean look at the Optimates... Pompey the pleb. While the Populares had Cinna and Marius, I think both were Patricians so...
    Last edited by Lord Oda Nobunaga; September 21, 2014 at 08:51 PM.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

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    G-Megas-Doux's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: The Second Triumvirate

    Hereditary aristocracy have a tendency to "Patronise" the able "Novice Homos" with the attempt to wield them for their own ends. The acceptable face of "insert political idea here" would be the likely assertion. To that end I am not certain that it was even a new idea for the time frame we are discussing.
    Last edited by G-Megas-Doux; September 21, 2014 at 08:57 PM.



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    Default Re: The Second Triumvirate

    Probably true. Which then one must figure out why these were two groups? These Optimates must have been stupid if they couldn't seen that coming. Because it appears that both are vying for the same thing but with somewhat different means.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

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    Default Re: The Second Triumvirate

    It is the same reason why the US has Republicans and Democrats. What they agree on is so close, but what they disagree on is highly volatile. In ancient Rome many alliances were ancient family ties through the bonds of cronyism and patronage. What ultimately became surprising was that Caesar and Clodius changed sides. That is even more of a stretch than Pompy Magnus joining the Optimates.



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    The Wandering Storyteller's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: The Second Triumvirate

    Good stuff!





















































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    Default Re: The Second Triumvirate

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Megas-Doux View Post
    It is the same reason why the US has Republicans and Democrats. What they agree on is so close, but what they disagree on is highly volatile. In ancient Rome many alliances were ancient family ties through the bonds of cronyism and patronage. What ultimately became surprising was that Caesar and Clodius changed sides. That is even more of a stretch than Pompy Magnus joining the Optimates.
    This really had me thinking what role the Plebs played. Especially rich and powerful ones like Pompey that had been able to wield considerable power due to the restructuring of the government and the Tribunes of the Plebs and what not from the early 100s BC, also the Gracchi brothers and their "rabble rousing". But I can't seem to find that many Plebs, at best they're some military commanders serving under someone... aside from Pompey I mean. But later on when Octavian and Antony fought certain Plebs became more important like Publius Ventidius who served as a consul although I have no idea to what extent Plebs such as him owed their good fortune to Caesar (as Publius Ventidius Bassus served as a quarter master for Caesar in Gaul, aside from his also being a rich man himself).

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

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