Kosovo/Serbia

[Treize]

In the real world where Serbia, Bosnia and Kosovo exist, NATO and the International Criminal Court operate and their actions have very real effects whether you care or not.

You mean like the conviction of Milosevic right?

Lol.

[Condottiere 40K]

I think most Europeans would like to amputate the Balkans from the continent.

However, two reasons there were finally interventions were humanitarian, genocides in Rwanda and Bosnia, plus the Siege of Sarajevo.

The other was that the area sparked off the Great War, and Western Europeans were anxious to avoid a repetition of that.

[Dromikaites]

You mean like the conviction of Milosevic right?

Lol.

1) Did Milosevic die a free man by any chance?

2) Wait to see how the trial of Karadzic ends in order to get an idea of how the trial of Milosevic would have ended, had he not died.

[Treize]

1) Did Milosevic die a free man by any chance?

2) Wait to see how the trial of Karadzic ends in order to get an idea of how the trial of Milosevic would have ended, had he not died.

Fact is they could not even convict him. Take a look at the footage if you want to have a good laugh. Or rather a good example of what a kangeroo court looks like.

[Stavroforos]

I think most Europeans would like to amputate the Balkans from the continent.

However, two reasons there were finally interventions were humanitarian, genocides in Rwanda and Bosnia, plus the Siege of Sarajevo.

The other was that the area sparked off the Great War, and Western Europeans were anxious to avoid a repetition of that.

I still enjoy reading the Western European narrative which puts all the blame for the Balkans in anyone but their own court, when they're the ones that largely caused all the issues there, not to mention that they're the ones that started WWI, not the Balkans.

[Erebus Pasha]

The blame lies more with the Great Powers of Central and Eastern Europe, than it does with those in the West I'm afraid.

[Stavroforos]

The blame lies more with the Great Powers of Central and Eastern Europe, than it does with those in the West I'm afraid.

Perhaps. I keep on looking it with too much through the prism of Greece, where the Western Powers hold the lion's share of the blame, but in any case the whole idea that WWI is somehow the responsibility of the Balkans is ludicrous.

[Treize]

Milosevic was a dick, the Croats and Slovenes were emotional separatists like today's Scots and Catalans, and Izetbegoviç was an islamist prick.
The West wanted to finish off the last pro-Russian factions in Europe too. It makes sense to put the blame on the Serbs because of that.

[Geronimo2006]

I actually agree that the West should have been more cautious on the breakup of Yugoslavia. But once the conflict started, there is no doubt that a genocide was underway against the Muslims and that Milosevic was sponsoring it. Attrocities on a far smaller scale were also committed against the Serbs.

[4th Regiment]

First of all, how moderators allow starting this threat, as all issues started here were discussed in countless and very long threads maaaaany time before?! This is 100% necro posting


But This post by good old Dromi must go into hall of fame if for his standards

Serbia had engaged in genocide in Kosovo as soon as it occupied it at the end of the Balkan Wars.

The issue was discussed widely at the time, even in countries which were Serbian allies like Romania. I have fund the mentions of that early genocide in several lectures from 1913 of a major historian (Nicolae Iorga). The reports of the time talk about Serbians rounding up the Albanian villagers and burning them alive in barns or suffocating them with smoke in caves. Mind you, Iorga was an otherwise supporter of the Romanian-Serbian alliance but the deeds of the Serbs in Kosovo were too horrible for him to condone.

Such state-sanctioned behavior after 1913 is bound to influence the behavior of some Albanians 30 years later, as those who survived were bound to tell their children and grand children about what had happened to some of their relatives. As the saying goes, you reap what you sow.

Also in the grander scheme of things, the Serbs are the intruders in Kosovo, having settled there from the 6th century onward, while the Albanians are the natives.

The garbage about "Kosovo is the cradle of the Serbian population" is totally void of any historical truth. Central Ukraine is the cradle of all the Slavic populations, since that's where the genetic studies place the early Slavs.

The Serbs have managed to temporarily rule over the natives of Kosovo and Albania in the early middle ages, but the Albanians proved resilient enough and used the Ottoman Empire to turn the tide back into their favor. That shouldn't be surprising, since we're talking about a population who managed to stick to their old language even after almost 800 years of Roman influence.

Therefore when the Serbs were involved in genocide for the first time in Kosovo, right before WW1, they were not "cleaning" Kosovo from the Albanian "colonists". They were attempting to wipe out the ancient natives of the land.

So, you have overgrown even your Serbophobia spitting out neo-nazi crap, that not only evil Serbs were evil in 1990' but this is nation of genocidal maniacs, who had genocide in the genes doing nothing but genociding left and right since very moment they came on Balkans?! Nice, maybe some hard core Nazi ideologists can be on par with you only

And from those 'scientific" theories about Illirians - Albanians, even any decent Albanian scholars stay away from, but good old Dromi is there.

So, Dromi, PLEASE can you prove this to us, but also to wider scientific community! I mean PLEASEEE! If you make it,FULL PROFESSOR position of History at Yale waits for you!!

PLEASE!!

-How came that Albanians are Illirians and Albania is even geographically not in ancient Illiria (save the far norther part around Skadar, which was until recently was populated by Serbs anyway? )

-How came there is FULL MILLENIA between last mention of Illiraians and first mention of Albanians? (with no links or connections in between)

-How came there is NO SINGLE HISTORICAL , ARCHELOGICAL, CULTURAL, LINGUISTICAL record that Albanians can be linked to Illirians ?

-How came that Albanian language show minimal signs of Romanisation, no mater Albania is just 40km in the shortes point from Italy and it was under Roman and latter on Bysantine rule for more than millenia? While in same time whole Balkans was romanized, and much more distant and remote places from Italy, and under much shorter rule of Rome (like your native Romania for example, where Romans were present like 100 -150 years or so)

-How cam that Illirians were famous pirates seamen, and no ANY sign of ANY naval tradition in Albanians, no matter they have very good location for it(best spot for pirating at narrowest point and very entrance of Adriatic) , and specially, no native naval related words in Albanian?!

Etc etc..So Dromi..please...

I actually agree that the West should have been more cautious on the breakup of Yugoslavia. But once the conflict started, there is no doubt that a genocide was underway against the Muslims and that Milosevic was sponsoring it. Attrocities on a far smaller scale were also committed against the Serbs.

No doupt about genocide against Muslims...but how came that after all those genocides, they have now 50% of population of Bosnia compared to 44% before the war? !! (note-natality rate in Bosnian Muslims is roughly the same as Serbs and Croats)

Far lesser scale against Serbs?!

So, Serbs are TOTALLY cleansed from entire country of Croatia (now proud member of "wester vallues" as you say, EU and NATO). What is comparable to that in "greater scale" Serbs did?

Serbs are TOTALLY cleansed from Kosovo (save small pocket on north, defended by Ibar river and Kopaonik mountain range) and huge part of their historical and religious heritage destroyed (also with full presence of 'western valles defending "NATO forces) What is "greater scale" Serbs did?

Even in Bosnia alone, when you look entic map 91 and now, far bigger territories were cleansed from Serbs (almost 100% Serbian whole southern portion of western Bosnia), and other smaller parts (in Herzegovina, Ozren and around), with Sarajevo being biggest Serbian city after Belgrade also totally cleansed from Serbs.



So, get your facts straight first.

[Treize]

But... but... demonising Serbs gets you lots of rep!

[Dromikaites]

So according to the Serbian propaganda the Albanians aren't a native population of the Balkans?!

The only proper answer to that is "enjoy losing Kosovo to the aliens"

[Stavroforos]

Most populations aren't the native population of region if you go far back enough...

...and yes, I know I'm stating the obvious.

[Dromikaites]

Most populations aren't the native population of region if you go far back enough...

...and yes, I know I'm stating the obvious.

Yeah, everybody came out of Africa.

As for the Serbs being genocidal in Kosovo since 1912, that was so well documented at the time that even those who supported a Serbian-Romanian alliance at that time could not condone those deeds.

[Stavroforos]

Yeah, i guess not the same Romanians who went to Ukraine in 1941 with uncle Adolf.

[4th Regiment]

We are still waiting for those Yale professorships worth proofs that Albanians are ancient Illirians. Come on..Yale waits for you, do not be lazy!

And of course, to hide away your trolling and hate speech "facts" out your butt (do not escape, you not only said that Serbs committed genocide in 1912 only, but those genocidal maniacs, were genociding poor little ancestors of Balkans since times of Slavic migrations, than latter occupying Albanian populated Kosovo in middle ages (even hard core Albanian nationalist with some dignity will not spit such a crap), you put in my mouth that I said that Albanians came after Ottoman invasion Good trolling job...where I said it? Or any Serbian scholar or even Serbian member here? Come on..Yale waits..And about scholars, in short, no body knows for sure, when and from where Albanians came, but they were either smaller tribe in masses of Avaro-Slavic migrations in VI and VIIc, or even bit latter since thoponims in Albania tell story of heavy Slavic presence there and first ever mention of Albanians is XI c...

And speaking even about 1912. "genocide"..interestingly, Albanians survived that "genocide" and their number were not changed unlike for example most of Muslim populations of our Balkan allies, Greece or Bulgaria which were given one way ticket to Turkey. Indeed, during 1912-1915 Albanian rebellion there were some isolated incidents committed by Serbian troops in suppression of rebellion, but even in 21st c we had that by way more professional US army in Iraq (not to tell Iraq is no way US land..)...there is not war without that. But calling that a genocide is more than ridiculous. Actually, as @The Noble Lord argued once here, considering the fact that Albanians clans in service of Ottomans, committed horrendous crimes during few centuries, against all Christians populations of Balkans (Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians, Valahians, and against their fellow Christian Albanians), they were given exceptionally gentle treatment


PS. few years ago while visiting beautiful Greek island of Skiathos (I always feel as at home while in Greece), in Aegean sea, was surprised while reading island history, that even far away there, protected by sea, that worse moment in island history was Albanian bandit-clans invasion during Ottoman occupation...

[Tureuki]

If they're not related to Illyrians or Thracians who are they ? they're not affiliated to any of the late comers or ancient neighbours, claiming they arrived there later is also doesn't makes, their language is not related to any of the major migrating groups.

I think they were just a small isolated mountain folk, leftovers related to Illyrians or Thracians, they gained importance after their population is flourished enough to play a role in politics.

Wiki says something about Ptolemy and Albanoi, but not a subject I'm knowlodged of so I will not defend if its correct or not.

[vikior]

And speaking even about 1912. "genocide"..interestingly, Albanians survived that "genocide" and their number were not changed unlike for example most of Muslim populations of our Balkan allies, Greece or Bulgaria which were given one way ticket to Turkey. Indeed, during 1912-1915 Albanian rebellion there were some isolated incidents committed by Serbian troops in suppression of rebellion, but even in 21st c we had that by way more professional US army in Iraq (not to tell Iraq is no way US land..)...there is not war without that. But calling that a genocide is more than ridiculous. Actually, as @The Noble Lord argued once here, considering the fact that Albanians clans in service of Ottomans, committed horrendous crimes during few centuries, against all Christians populations of Balkans (Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians, Valahians, and against their fellow Christian Albanians), they were given exceptionally gentle treatment

I'm not going to go into the whole Kosovo/Serbia debate, but I will make a small contribution to this thread however. What I find interesting is that everytime someone accuses someone else of genocide, the accused goes all like "Sure, we did some small stuff, but it's nothing compared to what Nation X did in the Y conflict!". Guys, two wrongs don't make a right. No matter how "small scale" the genocide is, there is still a genocide.

[Treize]

A genocide is when you seek to destroy a nation as such. This can actually be done without killings but for some reason all those apostles of so-called "human rights" split the legal definition (so it is called cultural genocide)...

Needless to say the word "genocide" has suffered from inflation as of late. Probably because of the politically motivated human rights crowd...

Anyway, did the "Serbs" seek to destoy the Albanian people in Kosovo as such?

If they had wanted to do this why didn't they, you know, try their best?

[Dromikaites]

Yeah, i guess not the same Romanians who went to Ukraine in 1941 with uncle Adolf.

Nope, that gentleman got assassinated in 1940.

Beside in 1941 the Romanians went past Ukraine, as far as the Caucasus. Our special way to thank the Russians for invading and annexing a large chunk of our country one year earlier. Stalin annexed what is now the Republic of Moldova on June 26th 1940 and we went after him on June 22nd 1941.