Eastern Europe lost most of it's intellectual elite due to poor economy and low living standard. In just few years 300.000 people with college degree left Serbia 1990-1992. Nowadays only about 8% of people in Serbia work in the area connected to their degree. You can meet a doctor driving a taxi or selling fruit at the market.
We have doctors collecting garbage here.
Which person with a minimal degree of common sense would bow down to American bullying?
Yeah Russia doesn't have a gigantic student loans bubble that has to be bailed out by the government.
(see US)
It doesn't have a huge unemployment rate of people with worthless degrees.
(again, check the old USA)
And it doesn't have government officials believing that if you dress your daughter in pink she won't become an engineer, and that's bad for the economy.
(that is actually from the UK but the US is probably filled with it as well)
One would say that Russia is doing it right.
''But they disagree with us so they must be stupid''.
Last edited by Basil II the B.S; September 13, 2014 at 09:17 AM.
I sort of agree with your main point, but medieval poetry and other artsy stuff also has its place, problem is, has its place but would require much less students than what they actually have, many of students of such fields are people who wanted to run away from mathematics and would accept anything that would allow them to escape from maths while having partying bachelor life rather than people who had a legit interest on the area of study...
For people majored in such type of artsy stuff, it would require both, a lower number of graduates, to avoid market oversaturation, and better quality of the source of students...
So in practical terms I agree with you but for different theorical reasons. Well just my 5 cents.
Last edited by fkizz; September 13, 2014 at 09:51 AM.
First - the original source is more interesting (I think) although maybe the OECD needs a few English majors because call me crazy but 440 pages does not strike as befitting the term 'At a Glance'
http://www.oecd.org/edu/eag2013%20%2...une%202013.pdf
this is 2013 so maybe there was a 2014 but I cant find it yet.
Actually your more or less incorrect. India and China for example supposedly produce lot of Engineers or rather those supposed but by in large most are degrees that at best amount to something you get in a 2 year technical community college in the US. Look what it takes to be PE engineer in the US
I like the sneer as well 'leave those that matter' and the ideal floated by you and Pheir above of useless degrees... The paper matters really not at all - it the rigor and nature of the mentoring of the in any program that is important. You can laugh at women's studies but a well run program should still produce a graduate who can write an effective paper and do independent research, woke in groups, recognize good research from bad (and given the difficult nature of gathering statistics in social sciences often produces graduates with a better grasp than many MDs) etc. A poorly run program be it in English History or Engineering is still a poor program(*).
In the US we produce pretty much all the engineers we need its just they kinda don't want to work for third world labor prices (if you believe the numbers form India and China about the same as India and one half of China - to the per capita math on that...) A more important problem is the erratic nature accreditation and effort put into Apprentice type programs and effect well funded technical programs. The simple fact is there are a lot important jobs that just don't need college but need to find the right people with the right skills or interests and teach them how to work in the existing systems and that often involves just rigorous standards -(cutting those who aren't going to make it), some post secondary class work but most import of just on the job training.
You could also ask if tertiary is the end all be all of measures. I'm I reasonably certain there are lots of Russians and Americans etc running working farms successfully who never went to college and likely never needed [assuming a well run public infrastructure of things like County Ag extensions and seed research etc.] same wise I doubt any of the working farriers I have known went to college or really would have gained much by it.
* Well I am not always a fan of ranking but here is one that available and world wide...
So in the STEM degrees that many seem here in this thread to think are the only one worthy of note, correspond to four categories (below) 300 chances and Russia manged only 2 entries in the World wide top 100. So is quantity equal to quality?
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.u...neering-and-IT
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.u...linical-health
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.u.../life-sciences
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.u...sical-sciences
Now a lot of that is hot air since the nuances of any program often defy blunt ranking but there is a key grain of truth in all this. The value of your 4 year STEM degree will often turn on your network contacts and the ability to get internships, the size and scope and location of Graduate programs often dictates how good your connections and options and internships will be out of or during that 4 years - or maybe even more importan how thay are viewed.
Last edited by conon394; September 14, 2014 at 08:51 AM.
IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites
'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'
But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.
Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.
No it just irrationally hates gay people.-And it doesn't have government officials believing that if you dress your daughter in pink she won't become an engineer, and that's bad for the economy.
(that is actually from the UK but the US is probably filled with it as well)
-------
In any case I think the real question is not the most educated based on getting 4 year degree but who builds the best overall education system that allows the best flexibility. Germany does very well indeed at this with Union/Industry/State apprenticeship post secondary education options. Back in the day the US used to better - my father in law got his flying licenses by trading his after house labor for lessons. But as much as I hate to admit it Basil is sort of kinda of right we have moved to canonize the 4 year degree and push the burden directly on the student (as loans in many cases) w/o the systems to guide people in making a good choice or different choice be it in High School or University
IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites
'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'
But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.
Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.
Conon there has actually pretty much hit home the point about degree's perfectly.
Even the most inane seeming of subjects (police studies for one- which until recently actually didn't have a practical application- the students not getting any preferential treatment upon joining the Police Force) actually do give degree holders an academic discipline in rigorous analysis, source collating, correct structuring of arguments and discussions and a balanced analytically perspective/critical eye that can indeed be applied to all areas of life.
In this way 'useless' degrees aren't actually useless. But on a general level boosting someone up in terms of applying to them an academic discipline. Which is by no means a 'waste' or a drawback.
While ideally you may want/might be better if they had been in disciplines with a more obvious application (English, Sciences etc). Specific degrees for either self development (Usually done for the purpose of study in itself) or those that are more 'new age' like 'Feminist studies' (Take History instead..but then that's also more general if one wished to partake in a very specific historical subject) still have an advantageous application in general. It's still teaching someone academic disciplines.
Last edited by Dante Von Hespburg; September 14, 2014 at 08:32 AM.
It doesn't really say much as there can be many explanations for this. For instance, US high schools are really so applicants are often chosen based on having good contacts (at least for the Ivy Leagues) instead of merit cause so many people got straight A's. Or maybe the administration is horrible and doesn't care.
I like to use MIT's videos and study material, and what I see is that the pace is slower and the material is often easier (though granted I go to an old style institution) than in my university (though granted it is the oldest and most difficult engineering school in norway). This also fits with what I've heard from American exchange students and students who've studied in the US.
Is that what he told you? The USA is a huge country with a large and indistrious scientific community. Perhaps he moved simply because his field of interest was more developed in your uni?One of my research mentors was a brilliant man from the Netherlands, and he came to the US to get his physics degree because of how poor the higher education was Europe by comparison.
Or perhaps it's got to do with other things: The main problem for the Russian scientific community, for instance, is red tape and lack of money/interest.
Really American HS are for what reason why on what critera. And as for your other points that pretty describes all universities and publications and science and human life who you know is often more important than what you know.It doesn't really say much as there can be many explanations for this. For instance, US high schools are really so applicants are often chosen based on having good contacts (at least for the Ivy Leagues) instead of merit cause so many people got straight A's. Or maybe the administration is horrible and doesn't care.
IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites
'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'
But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.
Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.
Besides the glamour jobs, I suspect most eighteen year olds don't really know what profession, calling or vocation to pursue, or bring them the most happiness or satisfaction.
A two year Federal Service term would probably help them find it.
Eats, shoots, and leaves.
If we are strictly talking about pushing people through higher education, I suppose so. That has really never equated to any level of innovation within the Russian economy. They can educate their dog and cat population but until they are producing new companies that in turn produce life changing goods and services on the global market, it means nothing. They will remain a country that pulls crude out of the ground to make a buck.
I mean Saudi Arabia actually has a more diverse economy.
If we have learned anything over the last, almost 15 years, it's how important the role of women is in a modern society, economy and political system. In that sense Russia is a step above some Muslim nations. And nations like Ukraine that still fall under their sphere of Russian influence don't do much better. There is a reason that a significant portion of the female population has a dream of marrying a Western man and leaving those countries.
Vodka consumption is one and equal opportunity is the other. Although if you look at the most recent statistics, Russian and Ukrainian women might rule those countries by default before long as the male population will have drank themselves to death.
So they have that going for them.
Last edited by mrmouth; September 14, 2014 at 06:00 PM.
The fascists of the future will be called anti-fascistsThe best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity
Give them time. I don't think I need to remind you what kind of regime they are coming from, and what was before that. Market economy to them is a newer concept than it is to Chinese people. Now that they don't have the communist party ruling where to put resources and wasting them in every possible way, they are free to compete with the rest of the world. And Russia was never a country lacking talent.
As for vodka, that is absolutely true. But keep this in mind, vodka abuse was in the early post-Soviet era one of the reasons of the population decline of Russia. Now the Russian population isn't declining anymore. At least that got solved. It takes time.
That is why you study social sciences etc and not interpretive dance.Even the most inane seeming of subjects (police studies for one- which until recently actually didn't have a practical application- the students not getting any preferential treatment upon joining the Police Force) actually do give degree holders an academic discipline in rigorous analysis, source collating, correct structuring of arguments and discussions and a balanced analytically perspective/critical eye that can indeed be applied to all areas of life.
Ignoring all the common-knowledge hate on US high schools (especially those in poorer areas), I have talked with allot of people who exchanged to the USA when they were 17. I know one who had C-D average here went to A-B average in the US, and others also did much better. Everything was easier, simply put.
what does that even mean?And as for your other points that pretty describes all universities and publications and science and human life who you know is often more important than what you know.
And Times higher education ranking is garbage. How do you suppose those handfuls of people working on it would mange to do any sort of decent comparison of thousands of universities? Many people from my uni go and exchange to "top" US universities, a dozen or so to MIT, and it's really not a big deal on the lower-than-phD level. Heck, even on phD level you have loads of European/Asian unis publishing good research. The notion that the US is some kind of beacon of enlightenment is nonsense.
Last edited by Nikitn; September 15, 2014 at 05:51 AM.
God please tell me that their isn't such a thing as 'Dance' Degrees?
Oh god there is...
http://www.whatuni.com/degrees/cours...5946/page.html
Just...why? If it's getting into the arts you want- it's actual work that counts not qualifications, you need 'dat portfolio' damn it. I despair.
Or not I'd like some data please? None of the exchange students I knew where particularity impressive. In any case its hard generalize about American primary anmd secondary education because it is so locally variable.Ignoring all the common-knowledge hate on US high schools (especially those in poorer areas), I have talked with allot of people who exchanged to the USA when they were 17. I know one who had C-D average here went to A-B average in the US, and others also did much better. Everything was easier, simply put.
As I said I don't like rankings but final statement is foolish. A solid PhD system cannot exist in a vacuum. But your right about rankings they do little focus on the fact that even inside of a 'Good' university not all programs are the same etc.And Times higher education ranking is garbage. How do you suppose those handfuls of people working on it would mange to do any sort of decent comparison of thousands of universities? Many people from my uni go and exchange to "top" US universities, a dozen or so to MIT, and it's really not impressive on the lower than phD level.
It means what I said and what people often fail to understand. Is the rigor of plant Genetics program at Iowa State University or Washington State as a good as any Ivy league school and any other in the world but your choice will dictate your career. If what to breed corn and walk into a job at Monsanto - ISU is your pony, something more obscure like Lentils - WSU (or say wine you better get into UC Davis etc). Stay away from the fields and greenhouses and just do statistics - sure than go with Ithaca or Cornall etc.what does that even mean?
What to be a K street lobbyist? Then you really do need to go Ivy League for the easy pass. You want to be an Engineer in the Auto Industry in the US well your best shot is the University of Michigan because the density of both Auto manufacturing and suppliers and say EPA regulating facilities is high and thus internships and professors with contacts in industry etc. Things may have changed since I was in school but if your passion in Keynesian economics I'd avoid University of Chicago and shoot for Princeton.
Or to put it more simply the reason I got my job that paid for most of my education was my father was a Tool and Die maker at Ford and knew the guy hiring the summer temp welders who was also a graduate of my Alma Matter EMU. That got foot in the door and I didn't screw up - which kept it in. Science/STEM is rather the same it connections and contacts and reciprocation that get that one extra intern a spot on flight or a free place to sleep or a position at company X.
Last edited by conon394; September 15, 2014 at 06:22 AM.
IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites
'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'
But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.
Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.
Yeah.. Except there is data, look at the grades distribution. When straight A's is nearly the average, it means the school is .
I'm not saying the undergraduate level is bad at top US schools, I'm saying it's nowhere near as good as it's portrayed.As I said I don't like rankings but final statement is foolish. A solid PhD system cannot exist in a vacuum. But your right about rankings they do little focus on the fact that even inside of a 'Good' university not all programs are the same etc.
Yeah fair enough, but the rigor and quality can be extremely different depending on the school.It means what I said and what people often fail to understand. Is the rigor of plant Genetics program at Iowa State University or Washington State as a good as any Ivy league school and any other in the world but your choice will dictate your career. If what to breed corn and walk into a job at Monsanto - ISU is your pony, something more obscure like Lentils - WSU (or say wine you better get into UC Davis etc). Stay away from the fields and greenhouses and just do statistics - sure than go with Ithaca or Cornall etc.
What to be a K street lobbyist? Then you really do need to go Ivy League for the easy pass. You want to be an Engineer in the Auto Industry in the US well your best shot is the University of Michigan because the density of both Auto manufacturing and suppliers and say EPA regulating facilities is high and thus internships and professors with contacts in industry etc. Things may have changed since I was in school but if your passion in Keynesian economics I'd avoid University of Chicago and shoot for Princeton.
Or to put it more simply the reason I got my job that paid for most of my education was my father was a Tool and Die maker at Ford and knew the guy hiring the summer temp welders who was also a graduate of my Alma Matter EMU. That got foot in the door and I didn't screw up - which kept it in. Science/STEM is rather the same it connections and contacts and reciprocation that get that one extra intern a spot on flight or a free place to sleep or a position at company X.